CT Han and Leia scene on the Falcon in Empire Strikes Back and modern romantic norms

I think the problem was that, unlike the first movie, the specific period really had no bearing on the plot. I love period piece content and in the first movie WW I was integral but beyond some set dressing nothing in the plot for 84 dictated the story had to take place in the 80s. You could have done it in the 60s or 90s just as well, with some very minute changes.

That special controversial thing just annoyed me in the movie because I`m a fan of the romance and I just wanted to enjoy my cutesy scenes in peace. And they do a plot that easily would fasciliate that, only to throw the most pointless spanner in history into things. Buzzuh?

Yup.

When I watch the Han/Leia scene in Empire, it doesn`t bother me. It is a movie from 1980 and overall the Han/Leia romance works very well for me. And overall, you could have their relationship dynamics in a modern setting as well, you just wouldn`t do a scene like that anymore. I mean, it`s not like you couldn`t do a modern version of "romantic bickering". Movies still do that.

 

I always think of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia during the Falcon scenes. I know Leia hates how much she knows that Han knows she likes him, but the "Stop that" isn't doing the scene any favors.


CHEWBACCA : What do we need a mattress for?

HAN : What do you mean what do we need a mattress for? Why in the hell do you think we just spent all that money on a spaceship? The whole purpose of buying the spaceship in the first place was to get the ladies nice and tipsy so we can take 'em to a nice comfortable place and, you know, they can't refuse, because of the implication.

CHEWBACCA : Oh, uh... okay. You had me going there for the first part, the second half kinda threw me.

HAN : Well dude, dude, think about it: she's out in the middle of uncharted space with some dude she barely knows. You know, she looks around and what does she see? Nothin' but open space. "Ahh, there's nowhere for me to run. What am I gonna do, say 'no'?"

CHEWBACCA : Okay. That... that seems really dark.

HAN : Nah, no it's not dark. You're misunderstanding me, bro.

CHEWBACCA : I'm-I think I am.

HAN : Yeah, you are, because if the girl said "no" then the answer obviously is "no"...

CHEWBACCA : No, right.

HAN : But the thing is she's not gonna say "no", she would never say "no" because of the implication.

CHEWBACCA : ...Now you've said that word "implication" a couple of times. Wha-what implication?

HAN : The implication that things might go wrong for her if she refuses to kiss me. Now, not that things are gonna go wrong for her but she's thinkin' that they will.

CHEWBACCA : But it sounds like she doesn't wanna kiss you...

HAN: Why aren't you understanding this? She-she doesn't know if she wants to kiss me. That's not the issue...

CHEWBACCA: Are you gonna hurt Leia?

HAN : I'm not gonna hurt Leia! Why would I ever hurt Leia? I feel like you're not getting this at all!

CHEWBACCA : I'm not getting it.

[notices Threepio staring at them]

HAN : Well don't you look at me like that, you certainly wouldn't be in any danger.

CHEWBACCA : So Leia is in danger!

HAN : No one's in any danger!

 

@anakinfansince1983


I think the scene presents Leia and Han as equals, as consenting adults, as romantic partners. Furthermore, I think Princess Leia is presented as being completely sexually autonomous in this scene.

I also am sorry about your experiences coming of age in the 80's. Surely our experiences in this regard were different and depend on our environments, cultures, etc.

 

@devilinthedetails Thank you, your opening response to this question perfectly sums up how I've viewed this particular scene for so long. As a child in the 80s watching ESB in the theater, I saw little to nothing wrong with this interaction in terms of the longer romance being played out between Han and Leia. To this very day, I still see nothing wrong with it until I read this thread.

(Note: still being somewhat new to the larger SW fandom online, here in particular, I've yet to read all that many insights/analyses/ rants of SW romances. One of the pleasures of coming here is reading and learning of new facts, factoids, and opinions on this franchise).

So yes, I can see now that in light of society's views today, Han's action aboard the Falcon would be problematic. Is it a crime though? Is it morally reprehensible?

If Han had come out of the blue, out of nowhere, and done this, then yes, without a question nor doubt. Yet the way ESB built up the tension (romantic or otherwise) between Han and Leia casts some doubt upon this. The earlier scenes in the movie indicate that somewhere along the line, Leia developed feelings for Han. Han, perhaps being more street-savy, picked up on this and proceeded to engage with Leia over this. All that bantering and witticisms, was that Han flirting? By responding to it, was Leia flirting back?

I have a bigger problem with the scene that foreshadows and directly sets up the Falcon kissing scene: Leia kissing Luke in the medical bay on Hoth. First off, the scene is incestuous which is cause for enough concern. However, there's quite a few things going on in this scene.

The way I see it, Leia has feelings for Han, she may not understand those feelings completely yet nor has she apparently decided what to do about them. But the fact that Han knows about it and has continually called her out/mocked her about it aggravates her and so she does something she thinks can help her regain some control over the situation: she kisses Luke. This was clearly done to make Han jealous and also possibly to show him that maybe he doesn't know everything like he believes about her.

But think what this does to Luke. Leia is only using him here to make a point, something Luke didn't ask for. Plus, we've known since ANH that Luke is infatuated with Leia so her kissing him would appear to be leading him on. Unlike with Han, we don't see how Leia interacts with Luke up this point. How is their relationship? Is it platonic? Has Luke ever tried anything to perhaps further his relationship with her? We don't know yet after this kiss and Luke's reaction, it seems clear that he thinks something is possible now.

Then we get to the Falcon scene. Is it possible that after seeing her kiss Luke, Han felt as if he had to make a stronger attempt? They were alone after all. I don't know, only that as an audience we've been given enough cues and information that any burgeoning romance between Han and Leia was acceptable, perhaps even inevitable. The maturity displayed by both of them in ROTJ seemed to confirm this.

Yes, today, especially today, a woman's choice should always be respected, no means no, Yet I think there's also the element of instinct, intuition in every relationship which is different and unique for every single person. Han felt that he knew how Leia felt about him. Leia knew how she felt about him yet was trying to deny it either to others or to herself. Was any boundary or line crossed in finding out? Perhaps, at the very least, Han should have backed off when she said no and then seen where things stood at a later point.

 

@YT-2400

Astute observations for sure.

I think there's a much stronger case could be made that Leia forces herself upon Luke in an egregious way. Yet, it's seems like people don't really have a problem with that scene, incest aside. I certainly haven't heard/seen any claims of this scene being "problematic" when viewed through a modern lens. Why is that?

Also, this scene with Luke supports what I said earlier, Leia is completely presented as being sexually autonomous. She's the boss. She calls the shots. Always.

I can see this. I just rewatched the scene to revaluate.

Even if we go strictly on dialogue, and entirely ignore the context of the scene/the entire movie up to that point, here's what we get:

She tells Han to stop rubbing her injured/sore hand because her "hands are dirty." A case could be made that Han should have stopped rubbing her hand and not doing so was a bit disrespectful. The kissing part is 100% consensual adults making out.

 

I too was wondering when somebody might bother to mention that. All the narrative seems to be how it was wrong to make Han jealous. No word about the fact that Leia effectively grabs Luke and plants a boundary-violating, non-consensual kiss on him.

 

Putting aside the incestuous nature of it, one reason I brought up Leia kissing Luke is that it shows that Leia is playing into Han's game. To start with, I think all of this was a game to Han, something to stroke his ego as the scoundrel smuggler who thinks a princess is in love with him. All the bickering and bantering was just him trying to get her to admit it. But Leia's responses only spurred on Han's attempts rather than quelling them.

Did she have to kiss Luke? No, she only did it to make Han jealous but it also showed Han that his comments were getting to her. Could she have reacted differently, taken another approach? Maybe but she chose this particular response, knowing it's emotional impact. So seeing that, Han perhaps felt that he needed to be a bit more aggressive which lead to the scene aboard the Falcon and his perhaps crossing a line.

But what about Luke? We always hear about (or want to see) a Han/Leia/Luke love triangle. But is there one really? I don't think so. We see one scene in ANH where Han teases Luke about Leia aboard the Falcon, where we see that Luke is infatuated with her. Then in ESB, we see the bickering and bantering between Han and Leia. We see nothing nor know nothing about her relationship with Luke up to that point. Is it strictly platonic? Has Luke tried anything to take his relationship with Leia to the next level? Without such knowledge, any love triangle seems slanted towards two sides instead.

Which makes Leia kissing Luke all the more reckless, not only for spurring Han on even more apparently but Luke's response and thoughts on such action as well.

 

This scene is not only from an Original Trilogy movie, but one that is regarded more highly than other films in the saga. Very few people are willing to accept criticism of this scene and many others in that particular Trilogy, whether it is warranted or not.

 

That is no more of a healthy relationship than if Han had been the one to call the shots.

But that does not deny the fact that there are those who find the scene disturibing.

 

Can you rephrase this for me? I am unclear on what you are saying.