ST Han Solo/Harrison Ford Discussion Thread

Are you sure? We don't know exactly what JJ told Driver about the character during casting.

Adam just said "They had a clear end goal", "It is a very theatrical thing", and "He described it as a kind of reverse of Vader". (paraphrasing)

This sounds pretty likely to be a hint at some element of redemption, no?

 

I never heard that until now.
Reverse Vader sounds to me more like conflicted first then full on Dark Side.

It looks like Rian wanted redemption. He hints as much saying Kylo was his favorite character and the one he relates to the most, and that he sees Kylo as a dual protagonist.

 

My point from the beginning has been about important characters, hence I don’t care about Luke’s aunt and uncle or Satine’s deaths. Han is nothing like Cedric. There is no relevant correlation. Cedric could have been yeeted and never mentioned again and I wouldn’t have given it a second thought.

KT Kirk doesn’t exist in ST for me. That’s JJ’s fanfic on the side. Tasha got a good death in a fantastic episode of The Next Generation and it works for me.

I have all of those issues with it. But actually, for the story, I hate that Worf and Jadzia didn’t get their happy ending also. Star Trek doesn’t have a lot of stable, happy couples. They’re basically it. I wanted them to last. It would have made the DS9 ending perfect. Even if Jadzia had been in Worf’s flashback montage, I would still feel that way.

 

Luke and Leia didn't even mention him when they talked and those stupid dice aren't a substitute, especially considering that so many people interpret "no one's ever really gone" to be about Kylo, not Han.

Han was thrown into an abyss like a dark lord and got no funeral. Qui Gonn got one, Padme got one, Vader got one - Han dies and Leia seems like she couldn't care less and they cut Luke's reaction. Kylo can't even say why he killed him and they brought back Han to have him validate Kylo's redemption. And I have to read endlessly "no one's ever really gone" and "no one dies in SW" - Han sure as hell did, and to top it off, while Luke and Leia are in Force Ghost Heaven, where the hell is Han? It's like he doesn't matter at all - Leia just tosses him at Kylo like cannon fodder. The new canon seems to be committed to tearing down Han's character every other week, as if they're blaming him for the movie not doing well.

First of all, Ford said in Empire of Dreams that he came to agree with George about Han in ROTJ. He did NOT agree to come back only if he was killed off - he signed for all three movies, just like Mark and Carrie - in fact, he signed before Mark. JJ decided Han should die - he admitted to it in EW. Ford was paid for not being in 8 and 9. I mean, granted, once JJ or whomever decided that TFA would be a ripoff of ANH, then Han has to die but that was not what he signed up for.

Second, there are a lot of fans still mad about Ford's comments in SW fandom, I see them all the time. In fact, I've seen him blamed for the three of them not being reunited, as if he wrote the screenplay and not JJ and Kasdan. That is who should be blamed for Han's death, for Kylo being Han and Leia's son, and for never reuniting Luke, Han and Leia. But JJ seems to skate on all that and Kasdan too.

 

I don't mind Han dying, I just think it should have been a worthy death with an actual point. Doing patricide just to woobie Han's murderer is... not that. Normally woobie characters don't murder their loving dads in cold blood. That kind of scene hella undermines the whole point of being a woobie.

 

While I don't understand all of the outside comparisons (Who is Cedric? Actually don't tell me) let me register complete agreement with AhsokaSolo about the Han/Kirk comparison. Han is more iconic, and Star Trek is more niche. Before the prequels altered perceptions about fandom, it was safe to say that everybody liked Star Wars. I mean sure there must have been a few individual exceptions but they were so rare it was really wild to ever run into them. It was more common to come across the occasional person who had somehow not seen the films, and that is saying something because such people were very rare.

Star Wars for many years had universal appeal on the level of the Beatles or Michael Jackson, whereas Star Trek was always a nerd thing. That said I am an old school nerd from when nerds got bullied for it, and I do think nerds liked Star Wars more than the average person. But nobody ever got picked on for liking it, not before Episode I anyway. Star Trek was a different matter.

 

Agreed. Star Trek gained it's popularity from reruns (and even then was niche/nerdy). Star Wars had mass appeal almost right off the bat. That is not to say that Star Wars doesn't have nerdy hardcore fans, or niche appeal about it.

 

We know JJ was only supposed to do one film, and everything else we know and see indicates their was no overarching plan - and if their was one for Kylo being reedemed, it certianly would be nice to tell Johnson given how his film works agianst that idea.

I really don't see what it matters of somebody is a minor or major charecter. The anology still seems fine to me either way - not all fictional charecters get epic, meaningful deaths; nor should they, becuse its not realistic and strains credulity.

I mean, agian I really am sorry your not satisfied, but I certinaly was. Like it would have been cool and all of Han's death was mor epic, but it's certinaly makes the universe feel real-er to me if, every once and a while, someone gets a tragic, largly meaningless death.

He's as valid a charecter as YE Tasha (arguably more valid actually, becuse his timeline never got deleted like hers did). And the point about Tasha getting a good death is that it was'nt Tasha, it was a alternate version of her from a different episode - Tasha Prime still died the same way and that never changed; it certinaly did'nt change from the presective of her shipmates, since their unaware of the events of Yesterday's Enterprise and don't even really seem to belive Sela's account of being the daughter of "a" Tasha.

Sisko and Kassidy, the O'Briens, Riker and Troi, Rom and Leeta, Kira and Odo, Tom and B'Elanna, Stamets and Culber (notably most of those examples come from DS9, but that is only natural since that's the most "domestic" and charecter-driven Trek)

That's not the films fualt, though, if some fans want to misinterpete a scene to be about something its not.

So?

Just becuse their was no body does'nt mean their was never a "funeral." Peaple die all the time with no body, or not enough of one to to bury, and that does'nt mean their death is somehow lessened.

I think this is a case of being "on the inside looking out" - Star Wars is very much niche and is very much something that is not liked by "everyone" and considered an aspect of "nerd" culture. It's not quite as niche as Trek, but its nowhere near the mass appeal of the Beatles or MJ. And honestly, if you went up to the avarage layman who had never sceen ST or SW on the street I'd say that why probobly would'nt know who Rey/Finn/Padme/Anakin or Picard/Data/Sisko/Seven of Nine were, their would be a more then fair chance they would know Luke/Han/Leia and Kirk/Spock/Scotty, becuse both TOS and the OT are such well-established and widely-referenced parts of popular culture at this point.

As for you never getting picked on for it well, you must have gone to a very open-minded school, which honestly makes me a little envious.

Behold, Reverse Vader.

 

Maybe.

But it could arguably be referencing Anakin's arc in the PT.

Anakin turns to hold on to family.
Kylo tries to go further into darkness by severing ties to his family.

Anakin starts the trilogy good, Kylo starts it bad.

Anakin's love devolves into selfish possession and desire to turn Padme to a darker path. Kylo's selfish ways evolve into selfless willingness to die to give Rey her life back.

Ending with Anakin's greed leading to Padme's death and Vader's enslavement echoing that he was once a slave literally.
Ending with Rey surviving and Ben selflessly returning, becoming one with the force, when he realises he was always loved afterall.

 

It matters because we care more about some characters than others. I didn’t care about Cedric. If Hermione died randomly and everyone casually stepped over her corpse, had a line about being sad, and then promptly forgot about it, I’d care. And actually, funny enough, Cedric was hardcore mourned in Harry Potter books (I can’t remember the movies, I didn’t like them). That’s hilarious. Thanks you’ve just reminded me that Cedric’s death mattered more to the story than Han’s lmao.

Do you really want to discuss this? I love talking Star Trek but we should probably take it to the Star Trek thread if you want to get into why I consider KT Kirk non-canon but not alternate timeline Tasha.

Sisko and Kassidy also had a sad ending. Riker and Troi were almost never together during TNG. Kira and Odo - also sad ending. Rom and Leeta are side characters. I’ll grant Tom and B’Elanna though. I often forget about Voyager because I finally finished it for the first time just in the last few years. It isn’t sacred to me like TOS, TNG, or DS9. You’re right I forgot about some other DS9 couples from the end, but now you’ve just made me sad that all three had sad endings. Of the three, Worf and Jadzia imo were the one I wanted to end up happy and together and stable. I love Sisko’s ending, I love Odo’s ending. I wouldn’t change those.

 

You might have missed that I was talking about the 1970s and 80s. In those days it really was universal, before the prequels and sequels led to fragmentation and marginalization of its fandom. Everyone, I mean literally almost everyone you could possibly find was at least a casual fan in the classic trilogy era, and kids young enough to play with toys always had at least a few Star Wars action figures. It really was everyone back then, though appreciation of it varied by degree. In my lifetime I don't know how many people I have met that haven't seen Star Wars (the original), but the number is almost certainly fewer than ten. But I would guess that fewer than a tenth of the people I have met actually saw Star Trek the motion picture in any venue at all. Star Wars has the weight of all that in its cultural impact.

 

You are way off on this. Star Wars IS The Beatles or MJ of movies. Not only in terms of popularity, but also because Star Wars completely altered the trajectory of film/cinema/culture forever.

Sure, casual movie goers might not be able to name Finn, but casual music fans are likely unfamiliar with (for example) Michael Jackson’s song “She Drives Me Wild” despite the fact that is was on the massively successful album Dangerous.



Also, I find that people’s knowledge of Star Wars characters also has to do with what age they are. Teens and tweens are a lot more knowledgeable about the sequel characters and the prequel characters then say baby boomers, or even some Gen X’ers.

Bottom line: Yes, not everyone is hip to every nook and cranny of the galaxy far, far, away. Yet not everyone knows all the words to every Beatles song, or can name a Michael Jackson besides Thriller. Star Wars it certainly is popular and as impactful as both of these musical acts.

Ask yourself this, how many people wearing Michael Jacksons or Beatles T-shirts do you see compared to Star Wars? In many ways Star Wars is more Evergreen then both MJ or the Beatles.

 

Expanded universe novels and comics might be niche, and maybe the television series too. But the classic trilogy is about as well-known and as well-liked as football, the whole sport. Maybe more actually, since I have met more people who dislike football than Star Wars. I mean the classic trilogy, of course. There is a whole tribe of prequel-haters.

 

As I said this really just seems to come down to personal satisfaction; you think Han got shafted and the peaple in-universe did'nt care, I though his death was fine and think that the peaple in the movies were shown to care a great deal. I don't think either of us are really "wrong," but all it is just us debating personal tastes in narrative choices at this so it's probobly best to move on.

We have a Trek thread?

I would'nt mind getting into that. I certinalty was'nt trying to derail this thread anyway.

I can't speak to the 70s and 80s, as I was born in '91, by which time it was very much not what your describing*, at least in my experience. But that's really all I can speak to.

The point I was making is that, given how embedded in popular culture both the OT and ST TOS are at this point, a random person on the street who has never actually seen either would probobly be just as likely to know who Captain Kirk is as who Han Solo is. Han's certinaly slightly more well-known, but the avarage joe is still as likely to know who Kirk I'd think.

*I became a part of the fandom before TPM came out, and by that point it already felt very marginalized and was very much not a thing that everyone loved and it was the norm to get teased for liking it, but maybe that's becuse the initial phenomena had faded.

Well, I can only speak to my personal experiances. I'm not going to deny the OT was infuantual from a cinematic perspective and I'm not denying that mostly everyone knows what it is even if they hav'nt seen it, but as far as my life experiences its very much not a thing everyone likes; far from it actually - and this was the case before the PT.

So either you guys got really lucky, or I got really unlucky.

These days? Honestly in my day to day life your much more likely to see New England sports teams, military stuff and 1980s rock bands on T-shirts then SW or either MJ or the Beatles. But that could just be becuse of the fact that where I live its barely one step above being hickville.

 

His willingness to face his son at the risk of his own life ended up paying off because it is part of why his son came back to the good side of the Force.

 

Episode I is what changed things, because many people considered it a disappointment and some critics even called it offensive. Suddenly there were people who considered it cool to say they hated the new movie. I found this experience rather painful, because not only did I like the new movie (albeit in a qualified way) but my love for Star Wars was a really important element of continuity in my life. I don't want to get into all the reasons some people really hated Episode I, but it was a thing. From then on, people willing to say they were fans marked themselves off as less than totally hip. I mean people who were in their twenties like me. It was really sudden too, because nearly everyone was wither brimming with anticipation or at least interested. Nobody got picked on for that. But about a month later, if you said you liked it people would try to correct you. I'm describing southern California here, this might not have been so sudden elsewhere or maybe it wasn't the same.

EDIT: Moderators, I apologize for the double post. It was accidental.

 

I still don’t mind Han dying. The scene was powerful, and in my opinion the strongest death scene in the saga. Harrison got to play Han as we all remembered him, and did some crazy stunts.

 

Oh yeah, definatly. I was pretty young at that time but I had that same experiance - since TMP came out when I was eight and ROTS when I was fourteen I actually had to grow up with it (it's part of the reason I don't much stock in peaple saying the ST "killed Star Wars," becuse I've been through the same sort of enivorment with the PT and honestly, it actually seemed worse back then, at least to me. so those kind of worries don't really phase me).

Just curious, but did you live in a bigger city in South Cali? My "city" has about 20,000 peaple in it and the surrounding area is very rural and backwater. So perhaps you had a larger "sample size" to go on with then I did. It definatly already was'nt popular were I grew up even before TPM came out, though it did get worse afterwards.

I thought it was a powerful moment too, but personally I think Qui-Gon's death was the most strongest in the films (followed by Luke's, and then Han's)

There's really no way for Han to have know that though - especially since if anything killing him would (and did) drive him further down the dark path.

 

Some have called Han Solo a deadbeat for abandoning Leia after Kylo Ren turned to the dark side. However, I would not exactly say that. In the EU, Han abandons Leia, Luke, and Co. after Chewie sacrifices himself to protect Anakin Solo. But he does come back to aid his kids, wife, and brother-in-law midway into the Yuuzhan Vong War. He needed to straighten himself out first. Ignoring the EU, one can picture pre-ROTJ Han Solo doing something like this.

Regarding the morality of it, I would say that the sequel trilogy should have portrayed Han and Leia trying to redeem Kylo Ren far sooner than TFA. Still, Harrison Ford brings more nobility than moral ambiguity to Solo in TFA. Admittedly, Han is, in a sense, not much different than Yoda and Obi-Wan, who waited circa twenty years to do something during ANH and TESB, respectively. However, this is my subjective view. I do think that Han Solo was portrayed as a stronger, more intelligent person than Luke or Leia were in the ST. Both Luke and Leia are out of character in the ST as a whole, whereas Han is, at least, in character. He did right by Rey and Finn. He tried to do right by his son.

 

Well, I've never read much of the New Jedi Order but I can't buy it there either. Han sticks around for three years between ANH and ESB, risks his life for Luke and Leia in the first act - that's not a guy who runs, no matter how much he protests about needing to leave. I don't buy Han leaving Leia, and that ridiculous "I know I remind you of him" - why? Han and Kylo look nothing alike and Han sure as hell isn't anything like Kylo. Also, that Han is a terrible smuggler isn't in character either. It's just JJ's daddy issues and wanting to turn Han into ANH Han again because that's "cool Han."

He was going to put Rey and Finn in escape pods until they brought up the map. He couldn't be bothered to take a map to Luke to Leia. So I have to disagree. I do agree Ford did bring some nobility to it, but that's what he always brought to Han.

But I will absolutely agree Luke and Leia are out of character. I can see Han in isolated moments of TFA but I see Luke exactly once in TLJ, the 30 seconds when he's happy to see Artoo before that conversation goes to crap, and I don't see Leia at all, especially that "when did that ever help" nonsense and slapping Poe, which is so wrong. Then again, allegedly, they were going to have Leia have her own Death Star style weapon, so I guess it could have been worse. I can see Hamill, Ford and Fisher trying mightily but they are abandoned by the screenplay and direction. Then again, Johnson told Isaac he was playing Poe wrong, so it's not just the old guard who got the shaft.

 

I think you described it better than I could after a long workday, Pendragon. The writing we got was sad.

 

Sad is a perfect description! It's as if they said "oh, who cares about the old guard, they're just there to get some butts in the seats. Who cares if we're consistent character wise, people just want to see some flashy SW like action." When with just a little effort...

 

I like how Ford’s performances are of a seemingly grumpy, egocentric man who actually has compassion for others. Hugh Jackman has portrayed similar characters. The gruff fellow who wants to be selfish and yet chooses to aid others is a bit of a postmodern archetype we invented. Nasty Jung, the cheater, wouldn’t approve. But I don’t care. I like this archetype.

 

"Like Jesus, Han Solo rose from the dead!"

 

I look nothing like my mother and I'm not super like her in personality, but peaple still tell me I remind me of her - and even I catch myself in situations doing or saying things and come out with "my god, I've become my mother."

TFA does'nt dipict him as a terrible smuggler, it just dipicts him as old and worn out, becuse you know, he's in his sixities and lost a bit of his edge.

Of course he was gonna put them in the escape pods. They were just two randos at that point - it was'nt like he would be dumping them in deep space either, just down on Jakku or whatever was the nearest habitable planet.

As for not being bothered to take the map to Luke and Leia, he did'nt know were Luke was and he did'nt want to see Leia agian becuse he thought she was ashamed of him and did'nt want to see him anyway. He still made an effort to make sure it got to her, which is what matters, and his rejections to Maz about getting involved were half-hearted and very much those of someone who, when push came to shove, would have just taken it himself (which Maz seemed to know and reconize).

"There were crates and barrels."

"There were actual crates and barrels?"

"Yeah."

(also, how does the manger get fired? By the owners, I'm guessing. Still seems weird that a manger would get fired for coming back late from lunch of all things)