Lit Happy Jacen Solo Day!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Trip, Dec 9, 2022.

  1. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    May 9, 2000
    @SiouxFan I was talking about Westeros, not the Caedus storyline!! [face_laugh]

    @ColeFardreamer Nom Anor's propensity for wearing masquers just makes him even more of a Scooby-Doo villain, doesn't it!! ]-} :p

    And as to the uncertainty principle, you're not wrong, but perhaps this is why I take the view that the best way forward is a system that gives space to the individual (offset, just to complicate things, by the paradox that sometimes people want and expect to be in a large, well-organized society for valid cultural reasons, and protectionism can be necessary to keep balance - vive la difference!!)... [face_thinking]

    @Lord Sith Harloxzz - the comics are vague enough that you can imagine all kinds of backfill behind them, though; heck, they're even compatible with the Sequel movies!! ;)

    - The Imperial Ewok
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2023
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  2. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    I haven't left the debate btw. Just busy, I'll see if I can get a response back by Saturday. Feel free @Thrawn McEwok and @SiouxFan to continue without me.
  3. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 24, 2013

    Nom Anor isn't just a Scooby villain, he is the leading Yuuzhan Vong Influencer... but he should cut back on the face-filters and bank on his true beauty more, I think.

    Best depiction of him ever, rare as it is:

    He can be so Skeletor if he wants to. I pretend this is Nom Anor and Vergere in the 80s:


    Yub very true. In the end, adulthood does not exist but is a social invention. People never mature to become responsible and balanced individuals that can take care of themselves but always continue in perpetual puberty to grow, learn and seek guidance. Be that a guidance or control that takes responsibility away and pleases them, or be that one that to a balanced degree gives them freedom while taking some burdens away from the individual. In the end, the individual is a social invention, too, and we all are herd animals that strive to be and work together in various groups and couplings to survive while at the same time pretending to be mature individuals, responsible adults and happy and functioning on our own and alone. But that only works for a time and always with a purpose and reunifying outcome to the group one belongs into and returns to one way or another.

    Or in other more mundane words... now as an adult with kids, I realize how constructed my view of adults and adulthood was back when I wasn't one.
    Or have I always been one? Isn't childhood, too, a construct? One too often exploited and its definition shortened or extended in favor of the times current needs?

    Ok I should stop now... and look forward to Celebration this year where adults can be children again and mingle with fellow ageless fans of all kinds!
  4. SiouxFan

    SiouxFan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 6, 2012
    My bad! Your comment makes a lot more sense, then!
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
  5. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    May 9, 2000
    Influencer? I'm now trying to imagine short video clips of Nom Anor doing silly things on social media... [face_laugh]

    Just replying quickly to say how much I always liked that a lot of the weird things the YV did were adapted from perfectly human real-world practices... [face_peace]

    Is that... official?! :eek:


    Seriously, it's a wise and insightful commentary - people who've not read it should scroll back and do exactly that. But I've always thought the "herd instinct" is a social construct in itself... [face_thinking]

    No worries - I see now that it might not have been clear!! :p :oops:

    - The Imperial Ewok
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
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  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    So you are arguing reasonable inferences are not possible based on third party observations? My theory of knowledge as such is devoid of your postmodernist pessimism about the power of observation to acquire knowledge. Observation works-in RL as much as in fiction, inventing elaborate hidden motivations or internal mechanisms because you find them more congenial is the rejection of the last three centuries of progress in epistemology(which tbf that is postmodernism but that's a discussion for another day). I believe that yes we can make judgements about intentions from observations-all we need is a sufficient amount of data, a reasonably unbiased observer, and an ability to formulate a conceptual portrait of the data once we have a sufficient amount of it. My entire interpretation of Tahiri is derived from this...I guess one might call it epistemological optimism.

    IU there are no such thing as blood curses, fate does play a role-but names and shared ancestry don't imply some sort of ominous doom to be avoided. Anakin is afraid of his grandfather's legacy-because he genuinely feels the name has some sort of bad magic-the symbol affecting the real. I'm not sure why you are disagreeing so strenuously here. Anakin is clearly bothered by his name, and sees his legacy as something to overcome. At least with regards to the meaning of the name "Anakin"-how is this not an inherently superstitious mindset to you?

    Who can discern the ineffable? Can five blind men identify an elephant by touching it? Jacen's fate in the grand sweep of the force, especially after death is beyond any of us-in or out of universe to declare with certainty. He might have spent a long time in Chaos, he might have been released early. He might have appeared to Allana as a force ghost-aiding in fulfilling the force's will for her life, we don't know.

    Yes...that said Jacen didn't conceive of it in terms of dynasties. Allana being a glorious queen depends on Jacen-what happens to her later is beyond Jacen's consideration. If Jacen were concerned with establishing a dynasty-he would have married TK and raised Allana as soon as he overthrew Omas.

    Point being simple empathy or regard for sapient life is not sufficient when said life's relationship with the metaphysical is ambiguous at best. If the Vong are force-damned, then maybe using Alpha Red is the right thing to do? Abominations of some sort, or simply "rejected" by the force that must be destroyed in accordance with its will. Obviously, Jacen doesn't agree with this but its a problem that has such unpleasant implications that clearly (and quite rightly) bothers him. As for justification-I'd argue Jacen overcame this in the embrace of pain, and what is more graceful than shining like a star in glory and harmony?

    Jacen didn't die a Jedi...

    I genuinely have no idea what that means. It may as well be gibberish.

    Tahiri wants to bring Anakin back. Bringing back the dead is a rather irrational wish(unless you are God himself and even then it is done in accordance with His will for the fulfillment of history-not due to loss or pain). Tahiri wasn't even aware of flow walking until Jacen informed her of it. And taught her to do so.

    How John's desires fit in is inconsequential. Her state of mind is observable and can be "objectively" discerned. His own motives flow from this observation, and do not somehow invalidate his judgements.

    Is he?

    "In shape" is admittedly a colloquialism. What we mean is at the peak of one's physical capacities for physical exertion, for example take myself. I am not as limber as I used to be, or as flexible. I sustained an injury and that has affected my physical performance in a physical activity I engage in(compared to years in the past)-quite simply I am not as "good" as I was. Because my body isn't as reactive or flexible. This is "objective" because we can see it, we don't need to ask Bill "do you feel like your better than James"-well no he isn't. James runs more laps, his heart pumps blood more efficiently, he has less body fat, he has denser leg muscles, etc... All of this criterion is not something you can subjectivize-all of this criterion affects actions and activities however socialized, in direct measurable and concrete ways.

    That's a long winded way of saying "I'm avoiding the argument".

    Oh gosh-you're asking me to describe something as inarticulate as character shipping preferences. Character shipping is based on aesthetic and sensual appeals-whether its wholesome, starry eyed romance, sultry, sexy, or salacious, or even subversive or shocking all subjective evaluations in the mind of the viewer/reader. Jacen/Tahiri is both "sexy" and "wholesome", Jacen/Alema has a sort of "opposites attract" vibe.

    Is that sufficient?

    Sure, I just don't agree.

    If I wanted to answer tautologically and with uncharacteristic hubris, I'd say "because I'm right" but I'm not that vain. My positions are objective because they are based on an epistemological framework that is confident in itself, and is able to make consistent predictions and measurements.

    Vader didn't send the vision though. Force visions sometimes do come true-after all battle meditation and precognitive abilities require they be at least somewhat accurate. So IU we have reason to have (general) confidence in Jedi abilities.

    At least two or three people quote Vergere's words to Jacen, for one reason or another. Lumiya does, Onimi does, I'm sure Zonama Sekot does. But again my argument is more Doylist-it is the end of the series, we as the readers are being informed as much as Jacen is, why at the end of a story-would Luceno or the writers of the NJO want such ambiguity for the big reveal-the true big bad, and the climax that had been conceived before the series itself?
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
  7. Mira Grau

    Mira Grau Force Ghost star 4

    May 11, 2016
    So this may be the dumbest question ever, but how do you guys imagine like a middle aged Jacen in therms of looks? Wether he somehow survived the whole Caedus plot or stayed a Jedi. Would be go for the full "Space Hobo" look with a considerable bear and long hair? Or be more like say Obi Wan with a shortly kept beard and hair? Or like Legends Luke, just keeping his teenage look and haircut just older? I am kinda wondering given that Luke himself has truly very different apperances in the ST compared to Legends.
  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    Jacen was around 31 or so when he died. How are we defining middle aged? Especially in SW? Luke and Mara are in their sixties in LOTF and look like they're in their forties.

    TBH-probably just the normal wear and tear, but minimized through the force. Eyes perhaps deeper, I could see, a few grey hairs here and there(but not really)-given Jacen's strong connection to the force, and an extremely active lifestyle-I don't see him really looking "older" until he hit his fifties and sixties. What that would look like is probably something approaching Han in Crucible's cover art(who should be noted is in his seventies in 45 ABY). Jacen would retain his vitality even longer. Though his face would begin to show wrinkles, however small, and his eyes would have dark circles under them.

    I don't see Jacen looking notably different until I dunno he was in his mid sixties-probably even a decade or so longer.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2023
  9. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    May 9, 2000
    A hasty reply just before I eat...

    No, I'm arguing that external inferences are skewed by bias, and that this is a basic point we need to be aware of...

    As I've said repeatedly, I think we're both indulging in the same pattern of guesswork and inference, but that's a completely separate thing from identifying the parts of the narrative that are basically Jacen's opinion, his point-of-view - and as this distinction is central to my argument, we can't really engage properly here until I manage to explain it to you... :p

    To take a step back, I think it's axiomatic that certain parts of the narrative represent Jacen's POV; maybe if we can agree on that, then we can start discussing the accuracy of that POV as a specific topic... ;)

    Thanks for explaining your POV; to answer, I've never seen anything "superstitious" in Anakin Solo's attitude to his name. Rather, I think the phrasing is a way of saying that the name gives him an awareness of who Vader was, which leads to him being distrustful of the heroic Jedi vs. evil monsters narrative that he's offered - because he's aware of the potential for heroic Jedi to become monsters, and he's aware that Luke and the rest of the Order have no real idea how to prevent it...

    And this is maybe a good place to explain why I think the ending of the NJO might contain deliberate subtextual ambiguity and subversion; I'd point out that Luceno is well aware of the monomythic underpinnings of the mythos, the cycle in which Willard, as it were, simply becomes Kurtz, and how this is specifically evoked in ANH by quoting from a Nazi propaganda movie in the medal ceremony, to suggest that even this moment of triumph contains the danger of Luke turning into Vader, a theme explored as central to the next two movies; Luceno's smart enough to play those themes, which is why he's very good at STAR WARS...

    (And wasn't there a line in the Corellian Trilogy where someone was thinking that Anakin can hear the music?)

    For the rest, I'm simply going to quote myself, because you seem to have missed or misunderstood the questions I was actually asking...

    I don't really see an answer to this in what you said...

    And even if Jacen does overcome his own lack of spiritual confidence in Traitor, that's when he starts to realise that the YV aren't mere "weeds", which only reinforces my point..

    The specific point I'm making here is about what she hopes to do with flow-walking... Jacen assumes she has a weak, irrational motivation, yes; but we have no knowledge of what she really wants, and no particularly compelling reason to think that her ambitions are that limited, so I'm suggesting that it's just as credible that she might be attempting a larger timeline reboot, a rather more high-minded ambition...

    You missed my point here. Becoming a Sith is a Jedi narrative...

    I didn't even think this was a question. Luke's vision in ESB is simply a signal sent by Vader; the fact that Vader sends that signal through simple physical torture doesn't change that point - indeed, it makes it more mundane...

    Was my phrasing of your meaning accurate?

    Because, honestly, I think those paramaters undermine Jacen's pretensions to objectivity...

    Also, in this context, I don't know what your definition of "wholesome" is, because I find it hard to square with what you just described; again, I ask for clarification...?

    Ah, I'm not asking what the phrase means (honestly, why would you think I didn't know that?), I'm saying that the difference isn't one of innate quality as you seem to be arguing, but is a product of all sorts of complicated and specific context...

    You really don't get any meaning from this?

    Go on, have a go...?

    As a reminder, this was my response to your argument that you need to use words to convey meaning...

    I'm going to extend that invite to the whole thread, lurkers included, as I think it might be (a.) funny, and (b.) a useful illustration of the diversity of human POVs... :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
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  10. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    I seriously thought you had left the discussion.

    I understand this, the point of our contention is I think Jacen's POV is more or less congruent with "actual" reality. That no, the authors did not intend us to doubt Jacen's every thought and observation(or even specific moments or insights). Right this moment I'm staring at the walls in my apartment-I'm generally confident the observations mine own eyes see are "real" and I am not deluded, drugged or dead. I am giving Jacen the same courtesy, unless there is overwhelming evidence otherwise(which there never ever is). (Except maybe when he was wandering Coruscant in Traitor and even then he had not completely lost his faculties).

    That's being far too generous and strikes me as a small bit of sophistry. Anakin fears the name itself, as though it has some amount of magical power or metaphysical weight behind it and he's doomed to repeat his grandfather's fate and if he had been given the name Han Solo Jr. this problem would not have happened.

    You know its rather rude to do this when its been over two weeks and I have to go back and look at my own posts, but I'll go off memory here.

    The point I recall making was that the Vong's "state" as it were-whether they are unnatural abominations or force damned or something along those lines is one with validity. What do the Jedi owe life "outside" the force? That is the question, Jacen obviously doesn't support the notion the Vong are some abominations existing outside of rightful creation or damned or cursed by the force to rightful genocide-if he had then I doubt he would have been kidnapped. My point being the question matters and the Vong's inherent personhood does not make the problem go away.

    I understood what you mean and you have(finally) summarized my position accurately. I just don't see any evidence Tahiri has such a plan, if she had she would not have behaved as she did. Her behavior in the later LOTF books is not of a woman with a grand plan to "correct the timeline", she's desperate and upset when Jacen explains to her she can't change the past, she kills a man on Jacen's command, and tortures Ben. We have zero reason to believe your interpretation is the correct one, whereas Tahiri's actions, words and behavior through jacen and other POVs supports my view.

    That' saying becoming a Christian is a Jewish narrative or becoming a Buddhist is a Hindu narrative. The Sith were borne of the Jedi and there is inarguable cosmic dance between the eternally opposed orders but given we have non Jedi like Bane become Sith lords(or Palpatine) the notion that anyone becomes a Sith due to some sort of prior Jedi thinking, or rejection thereof is just nonsensical.

    I recall it was a force vision. Not an illusion, (though force visions are admittedly some of the vaguest defined aspects of the force). I'm going to need a source to say it was Vader who sent it.

    Where did I say "wholesome"? Please use my quotes. What parameters were they again?

    Um yes...physical fitness is something that can be objectively measured. Or are you going to argue someone with terminal obesity and heart problems on death's door is more "in shape" than an olympic runner given "complicated and specific context"? Yes or no?

    To give a small subjective disclosure-I have extreme distaste for emojis as a tool in online and digital discourse, I think they are infantile and debasing.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
  11. ViariSkywalker

    ViariSkywalker Force Ghost star 4

    Aug 9, 2002
    I'm not sure what could be considered infantile or debasing about using symbols that were created specifically to mimic facial expressions, in an attempt to clarify meaning, especially in a medium where tone and intent are very often misinterpreted. I believe @Thrawn McEwok's point was simply that language is not the only way to convey meaning. A raised eyebrow, scratching one's chin in thought, laughter... these are fairly common physical reactions/expressions that one might encounter when having an in-person conversation, which is what a message board is meant to imitate. Or should we all be expected to conform to thesis-style essays, because clearly that is the only acceptable mode of discourse? o_O

    That last part was sarcasm, by the way. Feel free to consider my use of the emoji to be infantile and debasing.
    Gabri_Jade likes this.
  12. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fan Fiction Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Nov 9, 2002
    Temba, his arms wide. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

    “I’m interested only in expressing basic human emotions—tragedy, ecstasy, doom, and so on. And the fact that a lot of people break down and cry when confronted with my pictures shows that I can communicate those basic human emotions…." - Mark Rothko

    I suggest looking up Rothko's paintings to see how he chose to communicate those fundamental human emotions. Perhaps it would be illuminating.
  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    Language is however the best and most precise way to convey meaning. That’s the entire point of the Tower of Babel story after all. You can’t build towers to the heavens, or rockets to the moon or accurately describe geological phenomena with facial expressions and body language. (Well I suppose you could but you’d basically need to invent some sort of extremely complex sign language which basically serves the same function but is far less efficient and precise.

    A facial expression or emotional sounds can’t convey something like “In the year 1611, tax rates in the Holy Roman Empire fluctuated by degrees of 16-23% in correlation with climactic effects and internecine religious strife as a result of forced population movements of religious minorities”-(that isn’t historically accurate I made it up).

    To convey complex ideas and concepts you need written language or some sort of substitute that maintains the same complexity and can be translated in some medium and is sensible to one other than oneself. Written language is the best way that we know of to do this-in theory we might invent some sort of superior method or I dunno real telepathy and convey thoughts without the need for symbolic mediation. Maybe. I doubt it.

    No one said anything about conforming. (I actually have written quite a few research papers so I’m well aware of how tedious and often miserable they can be). That said, thesis essays are used throughout academia, business, government and professional debate because of the reasons I listed above.
  14. Gabri_Jade

    Gabri_Jade Fan Fiction Archive Editor Emeritus star 5 VIP

    Nov 9, 2002
    No one said otherwise.

    Yes. Obviously. And yet text-only communication lacks so much further context and meaning that is given to words in face to face communication: facial expressions, body language, intangible markers of interest or boredom, and so on. Which is why emojis and memes are so widely used and resonate with so many. They - imperfectly, admittedly - restore that context to communication that is otherwise lacking it. To call that "infantile and debasing" is ridiculous.

    And you didn't answer @Thrawn McEwok's question there.
    ViariSkywalker likes this.
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    I never claimed anyone did, that said the sheer difference is magnitudes more in terms of precision. Words and written language is the difference between seeing a picture of planet earth and describing its climate, oceans and topography and seeing a picture of earth and going ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

    One is actually useful, the other is near mindless and Oh god I feel so debased for having just done that. Maybe it’s because I’m some sort of elitist, but emojis don’t actually express the intensity or vivid fluidity of emotion-they cheapen it and reduce it to baby faces that adults use to produce reactions in…infants.

    (And for anyone offended, this is my entirely subjective and yes biased opinion).

    I would say something about the decline of reading amongst the general public and the utter failure of public education but that’s a subject for an entirely different day. Call me elitist or anti social or whatever, it doesn’t change how I feel about them.


    It seems to convey confusion and then mockery or derision.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
  16. Watcherwithin

    Watcherwithin Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 9, 2017
    I’m Too smart to understand what ❤️ Means
  17. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 24, 2013
  18. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    It should be noted that hieroglyphics were a very inefficient form of communication, and that it was the province of a small class of trained priests.

    So does anyone have anything related to Jacen Solo as a character to talk about?

    -His relationship with Vergere
    -His relationship with Lumiya
    -His relationships with his family
    -His romantic relationships

    Potential romantic relationships. Jacen’s force abilities and what is unique or not unique about them, Jacen’s political acumen as Darth Caedus. What Jacen spent the five years doing day to day. Did he have his own ship, how much contact did have with his family?

    What if Darth Caedus had defeated Jaina-how would he have gone on from there?

    By 140 ABY what is Jacen’s most notable Legacy in the eyes of the galaxy?
  19. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Nov 24, 2013
    Imagine one of the Kemp clones being a Jacen Solo clone... how'd the galaxy have taken his return and innocence? If Ania Solo is descended from a clone... that may explain some issues of her ancestors. Imagine a good Jacen Solo clone nobody wanted or trusted anymore, but who did find love after all and had a lineage in Ania?
  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    That's interesting, though IIRC where the clone stuff was going was never really concluded.

    How much of Jacen's personality and identity was in the clone? What did it remember? What did it not?

    I imagine his family would have shunned him-at the very least they'd have not had much to say. If such a clone winded up making its own way in the galaxy, then sure it could be Ania's ancestor.
    Thrawn McEwok likes this.
  21. Lord Sith Harloxzz

    Lord Sith Harloxzz Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 27, 2016
    Reading the Young Han Solo Trilogy i was able to notice that Young Han acts very similar to Jacen and Anakin Solo you can really believe that Jacen and Anakin are Han Sons
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
  22. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    May 9, 2000
    With some trepidation, I'm going to continue to use smileys, because as Viari said, they're tonal punctuation, and I think they're useful to avoid misunderstanding in a discussion like this... [face_peace]

    I'm sorry if Invi doesn't like emojis, but if he just finds anything accompanied by them ridiculous, then I'd actually see that as a positive, as it helps not to take what I'm saying too seriously...

    [:D] [:D]

    Sokath, his eyes uncovered!! :D :D :D

    Also, I'm now reminded of how the first conversation between Columbus and a random local who he picked up on a beach in the West Indies went - it was conducted entirely by improvised signs and gesture - somehow, Columbus managed to ask the question "Where is the gold?" that he was legally required to ask by the rather childish king, and if that wasn't hard enough, he got the answer "two islands thattaway and turn south until you hit Hispaniola", which he followed up by failing to realise that there were two separate islands close together, and thus had to fudge his log to cover up the mistake, which is another layer of language altogther...

    [face_laugh] I think Rothko's good, but hillariously overrated, mainlining metropolitan angst rather than expressing universality - I once messed up any chance I had with a girl I was very keen on by wandering into a big Rothko show on a date, where my amusement contrasted with her deep emotional response, and honestly, I suspect both of us thought it was a dealbreaker...

    So, this isn't just brilliant (which it is, not just using Rothko to make a point about nonverbal communication, but also using prose text to describe what Rothko does), it's also contextually hillarious...

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

    There's a difference between a simple visual observation and an interpretation of what's going on inside someone else's head, or even a recollection of past actions...

    What's your basis for this assertion, exactly?

    I'm not sure what you mean by "validity" here? At best, that's a possibility, an option, so it doesn't really answer my question; how do you know... especially if you use the frame that you were using here?

    Maybe that's because she'd believed that everything she was doing was irrelevant because it would be undone by a bigger continuity reset; she may have believed that she needed to unscrew timeline changes Jacen himself was making; presumably we can infer she believed Jacen was changing the timeline, though Jacen may not have followed through on the logic of his claims about what his new powers could achieve...

    We just don't know, but I see nothing illogical or inadmissable in these extrapolations...

    Really? Certainly, some Sith are recruited directly, but they're by definition schismatic Jedi, and a lot of them are actual ex-Jedi, including such obvious examples as Jacen, whose narrative of becoming a Sith does derive from his Jedi context...

    So I stick by my statement; for a Jedi to become a Sith remains a "Jedi narrative", impelled by their original Jedi context...

    That's why he's torturing them...?

    If you want something with immediate screen canon support, there's Yoda's "only what you take with you" at the cave - the content of the vision there is a manifestation of internal psychology, not external influences...

    You've still not replied to this part. ;)

    (You can use the little up-pointing arrows to link back to the original messages the quotes are from, btw!)

    Honestly, I didn't think it was necessary as it was only two short messages back up the page, and you could easily text-search...

    Aye, but that's not important here; the point I'm making is that it's not a measaure of innate qualities like you maintained, but a result of complicated, ideosyncratic contextual variables...

    Don't make me draw a graph...

    Interesting - you got the basic pattern, but you superimposed non-existent negative connotations; the intention was to convey curious thoughtfulness (o_O [face_thinking] [face_thinking]), a flash of firm disagreement with your argument ([face_talk_hand]) and then amusement, because it seemed so easy to counter it ( [face_laugh] :p [face_peace] )...

    I can see in hindsight that the [face_talk_hand] is quite emphatic, but it wasn't meant to carry any hostile connotations, it just captured my mood and I selected the appropriate smileys without really using any kind of filter (if I verbalised anything at all, and I'm not sure I did, it was the ironic STAR WARS meta of "DO NOT WANT")...

    All of which illustrates both my points - it's entirely possible to convey patterns of meaning without the use of words, but there's always a risk that we base our interpretation of other people's agendas and interpretations on subjective bias... :D

    And obviously, :tie::storm::storm::storm::vader::storm::storm::storm::tie: is a different little image... I suppose it's an evocation of the visuals of an Imperial hangar-deck scene, which is a different kind of arrangement altogether?

    I like that point - a good example of the sort of subtle detail Luceno brings to the story that brings a smile when you notice two decades later... :D

    - The Imperial Ewok
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2023
  23. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    May 9, 2000
    I should probably add, in case my earlier reply was too brisk... I don't want @Darth Invictus to read any hostility or negativity into my comments in general - while we obviously disagree on a lot of things - Anakin Solo, Tahiri Veila, whether Jacen's misguided and needs a hug - that doesn't mean that I have anything against him personally, for the simple reason I don't know the person behind the comments, and we don't disagree that Jacen is a complex, effective and interesting character...

    I just think he's flawed and human, and works best as part of an ensemble with characters like Jaina and A/T... [face_peace]

    - The Imperial Ewok
    ViariSkywalker likes this.
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Aug 8, 2016
    Yes, but not near as great as you are making it out to be. Context clues, facial expressions, body language, as well as spoken words can give one a good idea of what someone else is thinking or feeling, even if its not telepathy or something.

    I would need to go and check the YJK books.

    Validity probably isn't the right word...meaningful, unignorable, important, a flick on the edge of the conscience. The Vong's spiritual state and what that means is a question and a problem-one you can't just ignore by saying "they're people". Anymore than a Calvinist would refuse to handwave divine election.

    Your engaging in pleading and goalpost moving here. We have no reason to believe Tahiri thought she could reset the timeline, nor was that even the lie Jacen sold her(that she could bring back Anakin). I fully concede Jacen deceived her and manipulated her-its probably one of the most villainous things he did under the name of Darth Caedus, the truth hidden being that flow walking could not change the past.

    Jacen dangled an impossible lie, a dream, a futile hope for a bereft, grieving and broken young woman-to slowly shape her into an agent of his will and carrier of his plans. Tahiri may have at some level known something wasn't right, known she was being used, or at least felt guilty-but she was too, well...weak, too desperate to resist him. She wanted and believed with all her heart for Anakin-only Anakin that just maybe Jacen was promising a miracle, and she was emotionally vulnerable and mentally exhausted enough that she reached out and clung to a rope of wind, and her ears hung onto his words, words which were neither sincere or compassionate, words that gave her a dream to cling too in spite of the crimes, in spite of the cold sex with a man who didn't care, in spite of the confusion and pain that Anakin might come back.

    It was a lie.

    This is my interpretation of Tahiri's "fall" and Jacen's appraisal of her. It's the most consistent way to interpret their interactions and I think is truly moving and tragic. You can argue it denies Tahiri agency, and that's a fair criticism, but the plot as I describe it remains what LOTF depicts.

    And yet-the sith have formed their own narrative both from the original Sith species, and the thousands of years of struggle, with the Jedi, Republic and themselves. A narrative of the dream of immortality, of finally conquering death and the chains of mortal life, of victory and victory forever! This was the dream of the exiles. It entailed a rejection of the Jedi's dream of total submission, humility and selfless love, of a willingness to surrender everything, even one's own conscious identity. So yes the Sith were formed and emerged as a reaction to the Jedi-so I'll concede on that point.

    Was Palpatine sending dreams of Shmi and Padme's deaths? Or was it the force itself? Its possible Palpatine was doing so(his words in Anakin's mind when gazing across the sky add to this) but there is no such evidence Vader is, that he possessed such power. As for "what you take with you" I'm a Vergereist-the force reflects that is within and without.

    You're conflating things to argue something that really doesn't make sense. John has his own agenda, and the way he observes Jane is modulated in reaction to that-if Jane is sad and perhaps closed off due to a recent familial death, then say approaching her would be unwise, is she more open, happy, outgoing? Then maybe its worth a shot? Obviously third party observers(or second party observers) have their own stakes, that doesn't make their observations less valid. I want a drink from my refrigerator-it turns out it doesn't have what I want, I can take what's there, or go to the store/out to a restaurant. The actual observation-"drink X isn't there" isn't affected by my motivation. The same applies, yes, to people. Observations can be faulty, even catastrophically so-that doesn't make them all invalid as an epistemological tool. If I am a student and the teacher comes into class angry or frustrated, I know not to provoke or incite their anger meaning I don't ask that silly question I wanted to ask. Maybe something bad happened, maybe its work drama, maybe they just heard something on the morning news-but I modulate my actions in response, the observation "teacher is upset or angry" is unchanged, my behavior does change. As does John when observing Jane. His observations are not invalidated by his motives.

    Okay I see it now, you cut off that word from its context. I was referring to vibes and aesthetics when it comes to shipping. Wholesome might be chaste kissing and handholding under the moonlight, sultry-suggestive dialogue or sexual innuendo, erotic-well that's explicit sexual depictions and imagery, subversive-transgressing a moral norm or concept-for example...Marakin. Romance fanfics thus described have certain aesthetic vibes and feelings associated with them-is it wholesome passionate love that stirs that warm feeling in your stomach, or is something that causes physical arousal, or shock or fascination. Obviously, these aren't set in stone categories, and they are of course subjective in the extreme, but that is what I meant when I used the word "wholesome".

    How are we defining "innate" here? Height is innate. Weight may not be-physical fitness is the measurement of qualities derived from a prior baseline whether objectively set or simply intuitively appraised. Someone who can walk and run is more "fit" than a paraplegic, someone who can bench press 300 lbs is more fit than someone who struggles with fifty, and so on. When I am discussing these things-I'm defining them on a relational scale. Someone who is stronger mentally-holds out under torture or deprivation longer, someone who is weaker struggles with tasks or activities a stronger person does more easily. Strength is a measure of exertion of force, hardiness the endurance thereof. Weakness is the lack of or less of such qualities. You can argue they aren't innate in some mystical sense in that your bench press is reflected in the light of your soul or something, but you know I wasn't arguing that. I am arguing these qualities while variable between individuals can be measured and objective measurements as to their quantity ascertained in relation to descriptions given of individuals.

    A graph will have numbers and blocks of text giving context to what is otherwise meaningless lines and dots on a page or screen.

    Therein confirming my earlier point that written language is the most precise, efficient and accurate form of communication.

    I read it as either a representation of the empire as a note of affiliation or a symbol of might or power, note Vader at the center, surrounded by stormtroopers and flanked by ties-it connotes martial prowess, with Vader at the center of the forces arrayed, gazing at the viewer in a way that looks menacing. It means basically whatever one wants it to mean, or nothing at all.

    I do not have any animus or hostility towards @Thrawn McEwok myself, this debate is engaging and stimulating. I would make no judgement of the person either.

    We agree a great deal about Jacen, I just happen to find Jacen less...pitiable or deserving of pity than Thrawn does. I view the character with a mixture of deep sentimental affection, some measure of awe and respect, and as something inspiring in his heroism and spiritual devotion, and strangely compelling, mangled as it was, as a villain.

    For anyone lurking, I hope this exchange has been engaging and enlightening, or at least entertaining.
  25. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 14, 2006
    Considering my views on Del Rey's Jacen is that he's a clone of the real one and he was deliberately created and programmed to do what he did, including but not limited to pretty much sending Anakin on the path to his death, it's fascinating watching this discussion.