Lit Happy Jacen Solo Day!

Well, lets take a look at the late Legends ensemble characters:

Were their destinies cut short by a too young death or was all part of the plan of the Force after all, including unfinished prophecies that did not come to pass?

Jacen Solo, for all he was and all he wasn't, became a spiritual leader and influencer unparalelled in his time. The Force granted him in TUF a power and union unparalelled. And even craving it when he no longer experienced that union with the Force, he became a student of all that is to learn visiting many Force traditions in his sojourn, bringing back a new Force ideology to the Jedi, regardless if they or he himself were ready for it or had ironed out all misconceptions yet.

Meanwhile Anakin and Tahiri were supposed to be the Legends version of a Dyad, together more than the sum of their parts. A prophecy that was cut short... unless it wasn't and can after all be fulfilled post mortem bridging life and death between them. Tahiri was a child of multiple cultures and in her life added even more to her portfolio. Adept at mastering how to integrate and unify what seems opposite and separate, she always grew from each experience and pain. Be it integrating Riina Kwaad, growing up as a Human Tusken, becoming a Jedi and a Sith both, or bridging life and death with her lost love that is always around her in the Force.

Jaina truly became a Goddess. Pragmatic and practical, she did rather than search and question, including going some dark places. But ultimately Jaina became a leader, a Sword and a Shield that took care of other people. As Empress she has the power to enforce and create more that will help her and her allies to achieve these goals rather than simply being a single person against the storm. Ganner kinda was like her, but his death showed her who she would become, how she wound end, would she not grow and keep being the Sword only.

Tenel Ka is special. She is a Witch, she is a Princess, she is a Jedi, she is a Queen, she is a Mother, and more. From Mother, Maiden and Crone, she does not want to rule but that is what makes her perfect to do so (John Snow style?). She too bridges cultures, defies stereotypes since her childhood, and chose duty over personal life.
Her and Jacen's daughter, Allana, is much like her parents both, and her grandparents both. And Jacen's vision of the Throne of Balance has her, if true, become many things like them: A leader, a spiritual leader, and much more.



The Old Guard, the Big Three, etc. they had ended Palpatine and brought forth the new generation. They expected them to continue in their footsteps, but they would be so much more.

Jacen Solo would not simply be a Jedi, but be the beginning to unite all scattered Force beliefs into one. Including the dark ones.

A task Allana would continue until she ascends to the Throne of Balance (which might or might not have to do with the Hapes Cluster being a Celestial Construct ). In fact, Allana may be involved in bringing all Force Cults together to the table, like they had been in Disney canon in Jedha in the past only. Will she create a new Force Mekka, a new Jedha kinda? ..once Abeloth is defeated? If so she may need a bridger on her team, like Tahiri as expert on that matter and Anakin Solo speaking for the Force as a Ghost. Maybe the 500ABY joint Council idea of Jedi and Sith would come to pass because of the groundwork Jacen, Allana, and others like Tahiri made.

Jaina Solo, as Empress, would seek that the Force and its will and harmony is central to rule and government in the Felperor lineage, yet never abused. The Imperial Knights a failsafe against the Emperor going dark. The Imperial Mission spreading peace.


PS: Ok enough optimism, time for something completely unrelated to the above and a bit more realistic (read that as sad!): What if Zekk after loosing his hapan wife(s) tragically becomes a third wheel to Jaina and Jag again, kinda the Lancelot to their Arthur and Guinevere
I do not want anything sad to happen to Taryn and Trista nor Zekk, but the arthurian vibes to the trio are too strong.

What if Ania Solo is descended from Nelani Dinn? Jacen and her had something before Tenel Ka totally dragged him back to her bed. He could never tell her.. and afterwards avoided Nelani in shame, especially after learning of Allana's birth. Trapped between admitting either love or child, he was focussing once more on his work and visionquest. With Nelani sacrificed, her child grew up named Solo but never joining the SkySolo clan proper. Until down the line, descendant Ania and her parents were involved in some revelation of it maybe that Hapes and the SkySolos of that time tried to debunk or not accept. Thus Ania and her parents remained outliers but the SkySolos like Marasiah Fel, aware of such an existance as a distant cousin.

 

In general terms, there seems to be broad support here for the idea of a Jacen Solo clone... but are we representative of anything beyond our own ability to talk about this in longform for decades at a time, and how much does the idea work for Invi...?

They can, yes; but they don't always - they're not objectively reliable, and it's hard to tell when they're not...

Question - do you think I sham up the mood and tone I signal with my smileys?

No problem; but if you have a vague idea about how your opinion on the topic was formed, you'd be welcome to start with that to keep the discussion going?

Why is it a problem? Who is it a problem for? And why do you seem to think it impels only one set of conclusions? Surely the proper problem here is a state of not-knowing on the part of the Jedi?

Jacen makes her think that she can permanently change events in the past with tangible effects in the present, and by extension, makes her think that he is doing exactly that. How is that not changing the timeline?

Thanks!! Do you see my point, that while the Sith certainly attempt to construct their own narrative, they're predominantly ex-Jedi appropriating things, and an ex-Jedi becoming a Sith is doing so as an evolution of their Jedi perspective?

You seem to be missing my point here - the signal is simply a product of the physical action. Vader zaps Leia, Luke senses it half-way across the Galaxy...

How do you avoid unreliable conclusions, though? Your examples assume clarity of observation; I'm asking how you can have confidence in that clarity...?

And surely Jane has more agency than a can of soda? These aren't the same category of observation; there are less-immediately-tangible dimensions to the subject...?

Ah, okay - you're using the word purely to describe external aesthetics, rather than intentions and personalities? If so, that would seem less incongruous to me...

Independent of the complex contextual influence of such factors as motivation, regimen, social imperatives and current mood...?

Do you really not know that I'm not arguing that? What I'm saying is that the results are variable; inconsistent, influenced by specific context, subject to revision...

Technically, it could use symbols - but my point is that, even taking the precsie example you ad-libbed, a schematic presentation can be a more effective form of communication than the linear grammar of prose...

I'm not so sure. I often find myself having to correct similar projection of imagined subtexts onto my prose...

Ex-zactly!!!

No, that isn't my attitude - I'd say "empathetic", "deserving of sympathy"; but as you might surmise, we agree on "compelling", and on his emphtatic competence in "aggressive negotiations"; I suspect the differense is that I'm less admiring, less supportive, and maybe viewing the whole thing from a very different perspective...?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

You're lack of faith in the power of empirical observation is disturbing.

Probably reading Wookieepedia. Though that would have been several(as in over a decade) years ago.

"The Vong are Force-cursed or Force-damned, they are essentially abominations. We as Jedi owe them no quarter, only total extermination for daring to continue existing in contrivance to the force's will." Jacen is troubled by the implication that the Vong's absence from the force might result in the above conclusion. It'd be like a Calvinist saying'-"those chosen for eternal perdition are not worth speaking too, or even lending charity too-they should not exist, they only do to satisfy divine wrath". Obviously Jacen isn't thinking from that set of premises-but the issue of the Vong expands the Jedi's conceptual horizons-as to what the force is, and how it relates to sapient life, and its destiny. The Vong cut off from the force present a terrible moral conundrum for precisely the reason I state. Show them compassion, mercy, and love are what Jacen decides-but that isn't a decision he comes too immediately. You would probably respond by something to the effect the Jedi's worldview is limited, or not imaginative enough-when no I am elucidating it on grounds of religion-what do you owe those outside the hand of the divine, or those seemingly...cast away from it. Simply saying "well they're people and so deserve the same generosity"-doesn't apply when the supernatural does intrude in mortal affairs, to the benefit and detriment of individuals and species alike.

Yes...did you read the rest of my post? It was a lie.

Are they? The Sith in Legends emerge from two primary sources-the exiles, and the Sith species. A lot of Sith practices emerge from either the sith species or the hyrbid culture the Exiles built in ruling Sith civilization. They're narrative, is very much driven by their rejection of the Jedi, indeed the sith code is basically an inversion of the Jedi code, that said they have developed their own identity, and what you might call religious practice. Same way christians did from second temple judaism.

Was it just a sensing of distress? Or a vision? I recall it being a vision. Force visions don't require tangible stimuli to be triggered.

Jane is depressed, Jane is withdrawn, John heard her on the phone-Jane's mother died recently. Inference, context and functional senses=accurate observations.

An ant has more agency than a rock-yet entomologists are able to study insects, the same way a geologist does rocks? What difference does that make?

Well unless we mean something irreducible-like brain chemistry or something intangible like a soul, then "innate" is going to be a very subjective term. I believe qualities like strength of will, or character or what Nietzche would have called the Will to Power are innate, some have them and some do not, and for those that do, they might differ in degree-but the essence of the subject is either present or not, regardless of external circumstances and social ecosystems.

Ok...you can either lift a 100 pounds or you can't. There is nothing variable about this, beyond the individuals described. Context is really not relevant either-whether in space, or in a jungle, or in New York City-you can either run fifty yards in under ten seconds or you can't.

Sure you could use symbols-like the heraldry of the HRE, some sort of symbol denoting religion, another for grain, etc... such symbols are only valuable if they are understood. You do realize that nuclear scientists have a major problem with reactors long term sustainability-symbols indicating radioactive, or dangerous or denoting a certain isotope of uranium-might not be used or understood 5,000 years from now. Symbols expand upon written(and spoken) language, they can not replace it.

Consonant with my above point-shared agreed upon meaning is more important. Written language is more efficient because everyone within a certain time understands what words placed together in sentences mean, when read. Random symbols are not near as clear. To use a religious example again-take the books of Ezekiel or Revelation-both books use a lot of symbolism and dramatic imagery-that is very difficult to understand, given often multiple meanings were meant, and the context is very different from sixth century Judea or the late first century Roman world.

For my part-I see Jacen as both compelling and indeed aspirational, a man who actually does stand on his own. What is your "different perspective"?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to replace objectivity with mere handwavium (as you sometimes seem to think); quite the opposite, it's simply that I'm more respectful about what we can actually infer from empirical observation...

And you didn't answer this part...

... but if you're simply saying that I'm more careful in my conclusions than you are, then yes, that's fair...

So you think that's a reliable basis for your perception?

You've completely missed my point! I don't think there's any strong reason to draw this particular inference from the fact the Jedi can't sense the YV properly; the really troubling question being posed is the opposite one - what if the Yuuzhan Vong's apparent absence from the Force as percieved by the Jedi actually reflects a limitation in the Jedi themselves; what if the Jedi are wrong?

As I asked, phrasing the idea in the terms you suggested, "how do you know who the Elect are?"

Of course I did. The point isn't whether Jacen thinks he's lying (we agree on that part!); the point is what he makes her think can be done with flow-walking, and what she hopes to do with it...

Do we agree that he presents it as a way to permanently change events in the past with tangible effects in the present?

Actually, they emerge from some renegade Jedi who conquer the Sith-species population on Yavin around 4,000 BBY and claim the mantle of the much earlier exiles - and whose leader is described by his Sith-species subjects as an "evil Jedi Knight"... that's an obscure line from a kids' novel, but I always thought it was a neat piece of recontextualisation/deconstruction...

Similarly, Kaan and Kopecz, the founders of the Brotherhood of circa 1,000 BBY from whom the Banite Sith emerge, are also Jedi renegades rather than any particular sort of Sith, while Bane's direct master/apprentice lineage is from a line of Twi'lek blademasters of unknown origin...

Regardless, Jacen as a Jedi is approaching things from a Jedi perspective, and thus I'd argue impelled by his pre-existing Jedi mindset...

I'm not denying that what Luke experienced had a strong visual component, and I don't really follow why you're focusing on that; what I'm saying is that the experience was deliberately triggered by Vader using the purely physical act of torturing Han and Leia... the Force isn't sending Luke these messages, Vader is, and he's doing it through his physical actions rather than any mystical-projection technique...

You're now inventing extra context that would confirm John's interpretation. That can exist, but it's not guaranteed. What happens in a context when such context is absent, or ambiguous?

Jane's individual human agency is much stronger than that of either an ant or a can of soda. Your initial analogy semeed to say that a man can understand a woman as easily as he can undestand a can of soda; that seemed to be ignoring a basic difference of type, before we even get into the question of how accurately those additional qualities can be interpreted...

Well, I rather disagree - on the one hand, I think that strength and focus are rather double-edged, qualities that can mislead and misdirect; and I also think that our varied individual abilities are diverse, multi-directional and often actuated primarily by our context, hence creating a setting of complex human equality...

But I suppose I have a question - do you believe that the quantifiable "strength of will" is a positive attribute measured on an essentially linear scale? Do you believe that those who are possessed of a strong Neitzchean will-to-power are essentially superior examples of human beings to those who don't have it?

Jack can't bench-press. Jack feels insecure and wants to impress cute sporty girls in a gym. Jack is the type who can focus and plan and schedule. So Jack goes to the gym a lot. Jack works out. Jack eats things that are well-calculated to boost his strength and assist his workout. Jack gets jacked. Jacked jack can jack 100lbs.

That is context.

Whether Jack can now impress cute sporty girls is another question.

But agreement of interpretation is something we don't always have... misunderstanding and disagreement happen, as this discussion shows!!

I see him as human, as someone who is struggling with self-actuation, philosophy, the nature of morality and the cultural inheritance of his identity, and also with simple things like trust and talking to girls and confidence about his appearance; the eternal shadowmoth, if you will?

That doesn't exclude the fact he's simultaneously someone with remarkable prowess - he's a superb lightsaber-swordsman, a very powerful communicator, has a likeable personality and a broad empathetic streak - but that side of him, what Vergere called "the living Jedi dream", coexists in interesting ways with his vulnerability...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I never got around to responding to this. I realize it is, or was a popular concept(though I never saw any fanfic that actually ran with the premise). There are some questions, namely how and why? The fact it does undermine the tragedy of LOTF, whether you like it or not. And the fact it would leave Jacen in something of a limbic purgatory. He couldn’t just walk home afterwards, even if it was proven. I dislike it because it’s a cop out honestly.

Well what are the limits of empiricism? This is a philosophical question that many have argued over.

I don’t know why you use emojis, I just know how they make me feel.

Wrong about what? The Jedi still have the force. The Vong’s absence raises questions about how “sapient” the force is, if it is universal or not, and how life persists within it or without. You can draw a lot of inferences from the Vong’s abscence, the one I illustrated, an inference the force fundamentally is just a natural phenomenon, perhaps native to the GFFA. Or that life can evolve without the force, or that destiny and fate have certain blind spots due to this. The Vong present a lot of what you would call theological or metaphysical questions. Many that lead to varying inferences. The one I described is just the most unpleasant.

Well a Calvinist would say he knows he’s saved due to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. But then, well it is up to God and you might be wrong. So you don’t. You might have a reasonable hope, perhaps even an intense conviction. But if you believe God has set some vessels for glory and others for destruction, and hasn’t told us who-then it’s a matter of faith really.

This was the lie. I’m arguing Tahiri was as I described because she believed, or wanted to believe said lie. You’re side stepping the main point, it’s not about what Tahiri believed, it’s about her fundamental character and state of mind. Jacen didn’t believe the time travel changes were possible(if he did he wouldn’t have tried to convince Tahiri they were). Was Tahiri plotting to undue the past 14 years, in some 16 dimensional chess not even GM Luke could see? Or was she a lost and broken woman, taken advantage of by a man who at worst saw her as a disposable tool, and at best as second choice replacement student and regardless didn’t care about her or the harm he caused her?

Ah…Sadow. I actually like the story of the Exiles landing on Korriban, the darkness, the union of the Sith people with those twelve outcasts. Who shared so much together.

Jacen’s decision to join the order of the Sith Lords wasn’t done in terms of reacting to Jedi doctrine or structure, even as much as his grandfather. If anything, Jacen is more willing to try and harmonize his Jedi teachings, or at least the disciplines derived from them with being a Sith Lord, showing he’s not just acting out of some reactionary negation. As many ex Jedi did.

I’m arguing the force itself sent Luke the vision(albeit I don’t like using the word “sent” as it anthropomorphizes the force overmuch). We have no indication the vision was triggered by their torture in some sort of psychic spark. At least, I’m not aware of any such evidence.

Then making definite observations becomes harder, but not impossible. Jane might not be sad or depressed, she might just be introverted, or anti social. You always have to use context to make these evaluations. If you don’t have the necessary context, you are left with intuitive impressions based upon initial observation and engagement with the subject observed.

Man, woman, ant, can of soda, rock. They can all be observed, and they can all be understood. Obviously these are all different things, but it seems odd to me that you would argue that different objects or entities somehow are less or more capable of being understood. A human woman is more complex than an ant, which is more complex than a rock. Why though does this matter?

That seems like a diversion.

Do you believe humans are all the same? That someone who is 5.4 can play basketball at a professional level with seven foot tall men? Or that someone with a learning disability can advance at the same pace as someone who is doing calculus in middle school?

As for your last question, a lot of ink, and blood has been spilled on this in the last century. Superior and inferior are relative terms with extreme amounts of connoted baggage. I would happily say Albert Einstein is my superior in physics or I dunno-Tom Brady is a superior athlete to me. Alexander the Great and Napoleon are far better leaders, managers, and warriors than I am. The question of course is do these qualities mean someone has more inherent worth or value than someone who lacks these things. I would say, well spiritually no. All humans must one day stand judgement regardless of their aptitudes. And even if you don’t believe in a resurrection or the soul, well all men die after all. Kings and paupers both.

A Nietzchean would say this is the will to power in action. Jack wants to exercise power over the world around him, over himself. The Will to power is a value neutral concept. You either engage in the “struggle of life” and win, or you lose. There’s no “superior or inferior” attached to this. Those that have it, exercise it, those that don’t, do not.

Indeed.

That is where I disagree. At least insofar as the social and “mundane” stuff is concerned. Jacen is not primarily interested in maintaining a friend group or success with women. It’s not that he can’t have these things, he just has his heart set on the spiritual. Struggling with the spiritual, and with philosophy, always learning, always being challenged, sometimes teaching, well he only had nirvana once in his life, so of course there’s struggle. I see that as beautiful though, not pitiful. Someone who is truly spiritual does struggle, does wrestle; does make mistakes. Does ask questions and go in sometimes miserable circles. That’s part of truth seeking.

I don’t see spiritual or philosophical struggle as something pitiful, or even indicating vulnerability. Sensitivity yes-but then walking the narrow road is hard. Jacen wants to walk the narrow road, he wants to understand the truth, he wants to…using a Christian analogy, make it to those golden gates. He could choose the broad path, but he does not. I guess I don’t see his spiritual or philosophical walk as anything but noble. In fact, the struggle is the valor, and the sincerity.

He is all those things. He is a Jedi Knight, he is a father, he is a Sith Lord of the order of the Sith Lords. He is an apprentice, a master, a chief of state, a commander, a soldier, a pacifist, an animal lover, a cruel torturer. He is the avatar of Yun-Shuno, he is a lover, he is a brother, a son, a cousin, a nephew, a friend. He is the man who freed the slaves and brought peace to a galaxy, he is a man who burned worlds for a dream and destroyed every relationship in his life. He is the man who experienced perfection, and he is the man who damned himself for others. A hero, a monster. He’s all of that and more.

He has an answer to the question, “what are you?” It’s “I am Jacen Solo”.

 

I'm not sure it would be, because as you say he has to navigate the situation; I think the irony is quite a Jacen Solo sort of thing, and denying him the ability to act openly as a public figure might be good for him... but you're entitled to disagree...

What happend to your confidence in the power of objective analysis? This is exactly the sort of lack-of-certainty that I've been talking about...

You mean the Jedi's perception of the Yuuzhan Vong... the idea of "absence" is a Jedi perception, and one that may not be entirely accurate - the real meaning of that perception needs to be considered carefully... I think it's easier to explain as a result of them having a strong, distinctive effect in the Force (whether we regard that effect as having innate moral implications or not; but that's a separate question!)...

Perhaps that's part of why I'm suspicious of Jacen's perceptions in TUF, too; it seems like he's been given a convenient narrative that flatters Jedi biases, rather than one that fully describes the Yuuzhan Vong experience...

What do you mean by "a matter of faith", though; are you giving the decision the quality of inspiration and Force-like guidance, which would seem to contradict what you just said? Or do you mean it's a matter of an unreliable guess?

Which is to ask again; how do you know you're right about the Yuuzhan Vong?

Actually, I'd always imagined that Jacen's argument about the ability of flow-walking to change events, while self-consciously constructed as a scam, was nonetheless fairly plausible...

Yes, this isn't in dispute, I'm not sure what your point is in raising it...

I don't think this is the binary choice you present it as. "Was Tahiri plotting to [undo] the past 14 years"? Yes - it's not "some 16 dimensional chess" at all; it's not irrational or something you can use to adduce a weak state-of-mind...

Jacen claims he's been pulling the levers of reality behind everybody's backs, and presents it in a way that makes his claim about his new powers very plausible. Simple as that...

Nope, Kun, and Qel-Droma...

I don't see how this actually contradicts what I was saying , though I do query your attempt to present as normative and non-reactive - by definition, attempting to ''integrate the shadow" is a departure from Jedi ideas of normalcy and right-action, and implies a rejection of them; yes, that rejection is impelled in the renegade by the very experience of being Jedi, but that doesn't eliminate the paradox - Caedus is impelled both by his Jedi experience and his rejection of the standard Jedi paradigm...

That's why Vader was doing it - "They never even asked any questions!"

And in danger of being skewed by the observer's own biases...

I'm suggesting that "more complex" human nature makes people innately deeper, gives them more agency, and makes them less immediately easy to undertsand from simple visuial analysis? Jack cannot simply grasp Jane like he can a rock...

No, it's not... why do you think that?

According to the internet, there's been a 5'3" NBA player, so yes.

My immediate reaction was to imagine Jaina Solo using Jedi leaps to perform dunks; my more considered answer is that while basketball isn't the most obvious sport for people who're that height to excell at, that isn't an absolute rule, and more generally it doesn't mean they're lacking in sporting quality - they might instead excell in certain positions at rugby, easily the most physical of all major sports, or be a world-class racing jockey or football player ("soccer" for Americans)...

That's an example of what I mean by saying it's context that shapes the result, not the innate qualities in themselves..

But those weren't the qualities I was asking you about; the term you used was "strength of will" which is why I responded with this specific question...

As to me, I don't believe "strength of will" has that much to do with scientific achievement or sporting prowess, though it may be more pertinent in the sort of context we associate with Alexander or Napoleon; but I don't regard it as a straightforward positive, either - too much focus and determination and charisma can just lead you to scrap your army in the wrong fight...

You edited my point to remove the punchline... which is that the effort you describe is often misaimed; but I'm interested in how you think it's "value neutral" when you apparently also regard it as a means to "win"...? Isn't that very much assigning it a value (even if it's one I'd query)...?

And that's sort of the point I've been trying to make...

Interesting - you seem to see these stereotypical social-achievement tropes as something to "have", a badge of conventional success (achieved largely by will?), when I was thinking more of a pattern of interaction, an ability to make connections and communicate, a more passive and unstructured sort of interaction; but even if you see Jacen's rejection of those choices in entirely positive terms as studied disinterest or deliberate renunciation, I'd suggest that would still equate to practical inexperience and a lack of relevant social skills?

I should also add that there's a certain contrast in our arguments here - I don't think Jacen is as deeply committed to these lifestyle choices as you think - rather, I'd say he's attempting to work out if they're right for him...

I actually asked myself similar questions in my late teens, but I had the advantage that for me, these options were choices, whereas for Jacen, "being a Jedi" is a single path; he's told he's born to be a Jedi Knight, and that his path is chosen for him, and he has to proceed from that starting-point...

Perhaps that is the difference that I perceive here; it's Jacen and the specifics of being Jedi that I'm talking about, not the more abstract choices we can use as a frame-of-reference...?

Again, you use this word, I'm not sure where you get the idea from...?

Nor do I, especially not in general abstract terms... the "vulnerability" I see is more particular to Jacen, and is related to his empathy and self-awareness; the paradox that he's superb at lightsaber combat, but doesn't always like it is I think central here, but it extends to his awareness that he's not able to engage as fully with some "normal" social things (we might even agree on the broad frame-of-reference that those things are located away from the Jedi path he's placed on, even if I don't see the causality as a matter of clear or conscious rejection in the way you do - I think he's less certain about his rejection, always looking back or around like Luke is)...

And how do you define that "sensitivity"? Is it really different from what I called "vulnerability" or "struggling"?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Just out of curiosity, why the week late replies?

(Sorry out of order) Jacen learned the power? He knows it, he’s studied with the Aing-Tii. Why should we doubt him?

It’s interesting I suppose as a fanfic concept. I don’t think it being “official” would have served the story or Jacen well. For all that one may dislike Jacen’s story in LOTF, I think it’s a cop out to simply undercut it with this sort of handwavium.

You know the difference between aesthetics and objective analysis Thrawn. I dislike emojis because I find them ugly, infantilizing and intellectually bereft as a means of conveying ideas and emotions.

The Jedi’s perception is wrong insofar as it was limited in its imagination. That’s the entire point of Luke’s speech at the end of the war. The Force was more dynamic, more all encompassing, and in some ways, more intimately tied to all than they had thought.

To use the Christian analogy again, I’d say if you die in a car crash and find yourself in a burning pit, or before golden gates you know rather definitively what your destiny is. The Force is similar if less overt-if it is apparent, readily so, by demonstrations of power or by immutable experience that such an interpretation is true, then it is so.

Given Luke and Ben learned the ability in FOTJ, we should have known if this was the case. Why don’t the Aing-Tii use it to alter time at will? As they presumably invented or discovered it. Flow walking can allow you to observe the past, it’s affect on the future is a lot more ambiguous-I tend to think futures the observer sees can be created, Jacen sees his mother on a bench, well him seeing it makes it either certain or much more likely. But that isn’t confirmed. That’s the point Jacen tells Tahiri-the past is set. It’s like throwing a rock into a river, the stream continues as it was. A light bubble effect on the surface, but nothing affecting the river’s volume or direction.

Occam’s razor would say Tahiti’s mental state is what it appears to be, Jacen having no reason to lie to her in Invincible, shows this cannot be so. You’re entire belief requires an elaboration construction in evading the actual evidence on page.

What? Tales of the Jedi in the nineties had Naga Sadow and the Sith species. The Jedi exiles were also a product of the same comic. What exactly are you contesting here?

If we take my favorite interpretation of Jacen’s downfall, he became a Sith Lord so Allana could reign in peace and not be Krayt’s right hand woman. That’s hardly related to his Jedi identity, at least directly.

Ok, I’ll ask you directly, did Vader use the force to send Luke a vision? Is that what you think? Or was it the force itself? Was it Luke’s subconscious? Luke’s subconscious and Vader? Luke’s subconscious and the force? I’m saying it was the second, though perhaps Luke interpreted it through his subconscious.

The copernican Revolution and 500 years of science would prove otherwise. Unless of course you reject empiricism prima facie?

Why not? Even if you believe there is something special about humans, that we have a soul for example, why does that matter? Why is a human being in his or her glory less discernible, less observable, less understandable than a rock or insect? Please give an explanation as to why you think this.

Because the subject we’re talking about is human equality or inequality. I made many points regarding relative inequality amongst humans on certain scales, and you evaded addressing the point.

I’m sure your familiar with statistical means? People who are taller have advantages in playing basketball, people with better heart circulation are better endurance runners. Qualities of fitness are relative, but that doesn’t make them less objectively real.

When I say “strength of will” I mean a conscious determination to either withstand the privations of the world outside oneself or impose one’s own will on them, or rather omens ability in doing so. Someone who holds out under torture, starvation, water boarding, having their finger nails pierced with needles, for six months has “superior” strength of will than someone who breaks when denied food and sleep for three days. The context is the same, the difference lies in the mental(and dare I say spiritual) mettle of the individual in question to withstand pain, humiliation, despair and hopelessness. (Especially pain).

Well what other value would you assign it?

I think everyone who takes that path asks if it’s right for him. I also asked myself the same question, (though I asked it a lot more in my early teens). Well yes, a monk is probably not going to be the best at casual conversation with the opposite sex. Rejection of the marker means one is less skilled in it. I’m not sure how that’s relevant.

I’d say Jacen is firmly committed to them, Jacen could easily try to find a way to make things work with TK, he could end the relationship and pursue someone else, he could focus on teaching, or healing. These conventional markers of social success or achievement are well available to Jacen, he rejects them or doesn’t consider them at every turn.

I think that’s a good frame. I’m more referring to general life paths and choices. Attitudes, and so on. You may very well be referring to something more specific.

I would define it as caring. Jacen cares about the spiritual things. He cares, and so it interests him, and he can’t deny or ignore what actually does matter to him.

 

Lent!

I'm sure I'm not the only fanboy who reduces social-media interaction to a Sunday service at this time of year - it's a little weird when there's high-end new Star Wars and Star Trek on a weekly debut, but accepting that sort of limitation is precisely the point of it; and as to this thread, I thought the slower pacing might be actively useful (and that the conversation might get away from our two-hander - oh, well)...

You should know by now that I regard every narrative POV in Star Wars as conditional and potentially unreliable, but... this is completely irrelevant to any of the points I'm making; as far as the narrative, all that matters is that Jacen, right or wrong, is convinced that he can't change the past with flow-walking, and that isn't a point of dispute between us; I'm not sure why you keep acting like I'm hung up on that point, or why you relocated this reply...

I'm not sure I follow how it's a cop-out to make Jacen navigate the repercussions of his Sith reputation, especially if it wasn't "really" his fault - I'd imagine he'd feel amused and simultaneously hate it, which seems like a very Jacen-appropriate sort of reaction, and I think it would be good for him, as well as interesting for the narrative, to require him to act in secret, doing the Jedi thing or the Jacen thing without being observed, without being known...

More pragmatically, I think Star Wars needs problem-solving next-generation protagonists - Jaina and Ben are good, but I'd regard a wider range of characters doing different things (Anakin, Jacen) as an advantage...

As an aside, I don't really think your use of "fanfic" to describe a less competent form of storytelling is very accurate; I'd say the defining features of profic are more structural, relating to the fact that you ought to lay your own ego aside and work in a collaborative way with the other voices and respect the decisions made by the people above you (all of which, by the way, I find fun and interesting!)...

Of course I know the difference; but the topic here is "objective analysis"... I asked "do you think I sham up the mood and tone I signal with my smileys?"; you responded that you "don't know why" I use them; this seems to contradict your claims earlier in the discussion that objective analysis of other people's mental state and intentions is easy, so I asked whether there was a contradiction there - this response from you doesn't answer that question, and I'm still interested in the answer...

Yep.

This doesn't answer the question I was asking; why should the Jedi's perception of the Yuuzhan Vong mandate a particular response, especially if you concede that the Jedi's perception of the Yuuzhan Vong was inaccurate?

You seem to have misunderstood what I was saying; Jacen does not himself believe that his powers can change events, but he constructs his claim that they can as "a scam" to manipulate Tahiri; when I say it's "plausible", I mean specifically that the line he sells is plausible for her; that's the only context that's relevant to the discussion...

You're still missing the point; the "elaborate construction" is entirely your own, because that's an argument I'm not actually making...

Jacen does not himself believe that his new powers can change the past, but by showing them off, he quite deliberately persuades Tahiri that they can, that he can, that she can; everything else follows on from that, so, to quote myself quoting you...

I'm simply observing that there's a lack of real continuity from that Sith past to Kun and Qel-Droma and the other renegade Jedi who subsequently called themselves "Sith Lords", whose lineage (essentially a lineage of successive groups of renegade Jedi picking up the name) passes to Palpatine, Vader, and Caedus...

That would seem to be rather a Jedi way of doing things; doctrinal opposition to One Sith, a conventional Jedi stance, impells Jacen to the renegade idea that the problem can't be solved by conventional Jedi action...

None of the above. I already explained this, twice...

Vader is simply using an unmystical physical act to trigger a sort of Force-bond between Luke and Leia...

Of course I don't reject empiricism. What I'm saying is that it has its own empirical limits; human nature is less easy to understand objectively than orbital mechanics.

(And to prove my point, I'll take an example from orbital mechanics itself - Brahe's epicycles are the empirical proof that it's entirely possible to produce a logically and mathemetically consistent, ostensibly empirical interpretation that's entirely dictated by a subjective external bias...)

Gladly. People posess individual agency, complex motives, and what we vaguely call "free will"; those are not as readily observable or calculable as the orbits of the moons of Saturn. If I see to be avoiding specific terminology or ideology in this, it's because I don't think it's necessary to invoke it; the point can be made in existential terms which should be acceptable to everyone...

Jane is not a rock, she is not a passive object that can be easily grasped and casually picked up, and it seems misguided if John thinks otherwise. If you disagree with this statement, explain your reasoning...?

No, I didn't, I responded directly, by arguing that your scales don't carry the weight you imagine...

Yes, obviously.

But there are other sports, no less technically and physically demanding, where small athletes have a real advantage, and in any case, there are exceptions even within baseball, like the 5'3" NBA hall-of-famer I just mentioned...

So "tall people are statistically better at the sport of basketball" doesn't imply "tall people are better", or even "tall people are better at sport", all it implies is "basketball is a specific artificial context where tall people are picked for the professional teams more"...

And I'd even ask whether the seeming statistical advantage of tall players is itself a product of subjective bias; if coaches and selectors tend to focus on the height metric, that may lead them to undervalue the potential of smaller players in non-dunking roles...

Also, height seems to be very strongly conditioned by lifestyle and social factors, rather than being an entirely innate quality...

I don't think this has any relevance to what I'm saying, nor do I think it's the strong argument that you imagine - I would argue that these qualities of resistance can often be highly circumstantial (adamantine defiance can be triggered by a chance circumstance), or ambivalent (if motivated by an ideology that in other contexts is counterproductive), or actively counterproductive (the man who cooperates may actually be able to be more effective, the torturebunny might just be making things difficult for themselves)...

An excellent example would be the kamikaze pilots, whose heroism and strength-of-will was not in question, whose motivation was often to protect civilians against bombing and invasion, but whose ability to do what they did was in part achieved through systematic indoctrination rather than innate personal qualities, who were simultaneously propping up a government with some very objectionable aspects, and who were ultimately tasked with using a wretchedly incompetent weapons-system that was existentially not very good at damaging large ships (a propellor aircraft simply crumples and bounces straight off a ship's hull, and the blast of the explosives packed inside the fuselage is absorbed by the fuselage; the small number of effective hits involved specific non-standard scenarios that meant they avoided the hull-side and hit busy deck/superstructure areas packed with ammo and/or fuel - and almost all the effective attacks on large ships involved actually dropping bombs the old-fashioned way)...

I'm asking why you describe it as both "value neutral" and a means to "win"; that seems contradictory...

My own view of its "value", right there in the comment you're responding to, "is that the effort you describe is often misaimed" (or to go back to the line that you edited out from my previous reply in this sequence, John's effort in the gym is not necessarily going to make Jane interested in him)...

I see more of a quid pro quo sort of thing - Jacen is aware of the path not taken, of his lack of skill in those areas...

Or he can't find a way to integrate them into his Jedi identity?

Yes, I'm talking about Jacen Solo - I'm not using him as a metaphor for some wider theory, but a more specific topic where wider relevance happens in a pars pro toto sort of way...

Oh, I probably agree, but I'm not sure it's quite as instinctive as you think - he wasn't given much choice, he was told this was what he was expected to be... and, more importantly and more emphatically, I think he's also "sensitive" to the things he turns his back on or lacks experience with; he's too honest not to be...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Looks like our boy's still got it!

 

Apologies, I have been sick the past few days. I will do my best to crank out a response. Though it might be briefer than usual.

It is a testament to just how compelling Jacen as a character is.

Well God Bless then.

Okay so where are we disagreeing here? The narrative Jacen constructs for Tahiri is one he does not believe, but it is what he uses to sell Tahiri on joining him. I'm arguing its a lie, that the power of flow walking does not allow altering the past. Obviously Tahiri believes or is lead to believe it does. Better question is do you believe it can change the past? I do not.

See I disagree here. Yes you could do things with Jacen returning and caedus a clone, anything from secret problem solving to meeting his family, to being Ania's actual ancestor. But I feel this undercuts the tragedy of Jacen Solo, if his journey we saw end in Invincible was not the "real" Jacen. It sucks out the pathos of those Jacen quotes, of Vergere's teaching, and Lumiya's simple yet shocking lesson.

Well firstly there's the military and political problem of the Vong. That is they are trying to conquer the galaxy. The Vong's relationship with the Force is not directly related to that(at least that the Jedi know in the early NJO), hence Jacen's crisis of faith. Perhaps the Jedi should have done something other than collapse into Jacen's circle of doubt or Jaina's high tailing any Jedi introspection and investigated the matter thoroughly before embarking on either a military or diplomatic response. The problem being, they didn't know, something was off about the Vong, and the Vong were killing billions of people. Maybe they were just force cursed abominations? Jacen's entire pacifist phase is driven by this lack of certainty, if the Jedi had known early on, or had a solid idea then a more informed response could have been mustered.

Well it was the ghost of Freedon Nadd that converted Kun, Vitiate was in the Unknown Regions. So I suppose you can argue that. I do find the story of the Exiles and the Red Sith poignant, the ancient Sith species-already immersed in the dark side, pursuing everlasting life, and indulging in that art of alchemy came into a political and spiritual union with the Jedi Exiles whose raison d'etre was to discover and master the secrets of life. You could say it was a match of destiny.

Willingly walking into the dark, mass torture and murder, cold blooded betrayal and self-chosen damnation don't seem very Jedi to me. Yet Jacen willingly walked that path. Over the protest of Nelani Dinn who pleaded he remain in the light.

Hmm...

This really isn't relevant to the discussion. Strength of will as expressed in a particular context may be counterproductive or near useless to a certain set of objectives within certain scenarios, but what I mean is not reducible. Its the measurement of an individual's mettle. What that mettle is achieving or not achieving is extraneous. To use a non torture related example-someone shot in the abdomen might see their bleeding, and in their despair simply...give up. Someone else might fight for every second of life, they are possessed of a will to live, a will to conquer the incoming death at the door. (Obviously being shot point blank in the head makes this irrelevant). "Will to Power" and the strength thereof is simply "do I impose my conscious desire on the world(whatever that may be)" or let the world impose itself on me, thereby "defeating" me. It might be futile, it might be for a bad cause, it might even be genuinely stupid or self destructive, but when I talk about will, I simply mean a desire to persevere and to see one's own desires imposed on the world outside of himself. That can be as simple as refusing to die, refusing to give into torture or marching to the Indus river so as to reach the Outer Ocean and conquer the world, and anything in between.

Sure.

When you've become one with the Force and understood reality in a way so intimate and so profound you feel empty the rest of your life, what is a family in comparison?

I agree.

 

The reason I go into "Clone Jacen" idea myself is because it's part of a bigger tragedy. This was in addition to the idea that Vergere's mind was warped from her time with the Yuuzhan Vong thus should never be really trusted while Lumiya is not really acting out in restoring the Sith but in truth her vengeance against Luke Skywalker for taking everything for her, the opposite of Mara Jade letting go of her desire to avenge their master(s). Then there was the manipulator behind the scenes that created these tragedies to rule the galaxy himself, playing the dejarik pieces as it were in a long game until finally the Kintan Strider avoids the Mantellian Savrip and crushes it the latter's skull in instead. Something happened between 45 ABY and 130 ABY and the drop in the general IQ of the main characters when it came to stopping the Yuuzhan Vong, relations with the Chiss and the Killiks, the Confederation War, Abeloth and the rise of the Lost Tribe of the Sith...

Jacen's fall, whether it was the real him or a clone of him, is as I said, all part of a bigger universe of darkness that rose in prominence across the galaxy before 25 ABY. And among those to perish were some of the best and brightest of each generation (and not so bright): Miko Reglia, Elegos A'Kla, Daeshara'cor, Wurth Skidder, Ganner Rhysode, Randa Besilijic Diori (he was a somewhat likable Hutt), Anakin Solo, Alema and Numa Rar, Borsk Fey'lya (he had his redeeming parts and not so redeeming), Lusa, Lyric, Bela and Krasov Hara, Jovan Drark, Eryl Besa, Ulaha Kore, Teneniel Djo, Isolder, Gilad Pellaeon, Ephin Sarreti (his absence after 41 ABY makes me fear he didn't survive something), Cal Omas, Admiral Tarla Limpan, Admiral Cha Niathal...I could go on.

And it would play all into the hands of another.

 

For some reason for me Jacen had Emo Hair

 

From Dark Nest trilogy onwards, judging from the Japanese cover for The Joiner King.

I wonder if Akanah really wished he'd stuck around just long enough for a haircut.

 

Jacen is... Jacen...

*Vorlon head-tilt*

No worries. I think there are a few things you skimmed that I'd be interested in an answer to, but I'll skip them on this pass...

Yes. We've agreed on this part all along...

... but this part is irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

Again, yes. We've agreed on this part all along...

... and again, this part is irrelevant to the discussion!

You asked "where are we disagreeing here?" - to answer, I'm going to quote my previous reply...

That is the point where we differ, and the point which started this whole direction in the discussion, namely the inferences we can draw about Tahiri's state-of-mind; when we unpack the evidence and think about what she has been presented with, then her behaviour appears entirely rational; the idea that it's otherwise is simply what Jacen percieves, ...

*chuckle* Surely subverting the intended narrative is very on-brand for Vergere? She's quoting Monty Python, not Gandalf...

Maybe the difference here is that I think "lack of certainty" is a solid idea in itself? There's no existential need to grasp for something beyond it?

I also think Jaina and Anakin are simply being more pragmatic in their idea of standing in front of the people being threatened, though they're not always very good at it... and I should add that in my personal takeout from the NJO, the ineptitude of the NR response is a big thing.

"Yes, you fought. Like cadets."

Which is to say that I broadly agree in terms of critique with Jacen, but my tools here are those of Thrawn...

Wheras I think it's largely, or perhaps entirely, psychological projection by the later renegade-Jedi "Sith Lords" - we rarely get actual Red Sith voices, and when they do, they don't actually say what the cultists want them to... even the Exiles and their heirs are more complex and nuanced than they're given credit...

"Such a quiet thing, to fall..."

Also, there's that whole Dark Empire thing that Luke doesn't really talk about...

Hmm?

I think it can be, though. Your arguments are depictions of irreducibility, not proofs that it is or must be so...

You're trying to will-to-power this argument, right?

Does that make me your Vergere?

Do we actually agree here?

I think, because he's a Sky-Solo, it's something that's more important to him than he wants to admit (that's not to say that the partner-and-progeny model is the only relevant form of family, but in Jacen's case it's certainly something that, at the risk of a loaded term, both transcends and traduces his attempts to insist he's gone beyond that sort of thing - a profound pars pro toto illustration of the same connectedness Jacen aspired to while fighting at the end of TUF, if you will?)...

Krayt? Or Luke? Or someone who wants Jaina to found a Jedi dynasty?

I'm not sure if Vergere's really struggling with derangement, rather than simply the deceptions she constricts. Your suggestion that Lumiya is an anti-Mara is very good, though...

Lots to unpack in this, but it's one of the most coherent takes on the post-NJO that I've seen...

Is this Jacen in a particular chronological bracket?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Luke's "What happened in the Dark Empire stays in the Dark Empire" policy seems to be complicated.

Then again he is not alone with that. Mara too prefers to not adress what happened during DE, aside brief "trained with Katarn, had some adventure with Lando" lines. But the details? Well... I wonder how much Luke ever learned of her time with Cronal/Pestage and the entire mission to free her, or Kyle's Emperor Katarn plans before she brought him back on Dromund Kaas.

And that during the entire JAT nobody called them out on that is interesting... I mean, it's like a therapy spa club below the Great Temple of "we've almost all been there and seen it first hand"... Luke, Mara, Kyle, Kam at least... the newbies may not all know but suspect or have heard. Tionne for sure recorded stuff about it into her essential guides.

And who told Anakin Solo once he was old enough to understand anyway about the entire Palpatine deal during his childhood? Or thus kickstarted his fear of "what if Palpatine mangaged to survive inside him" aside the "Vader's Legacy" he also bears. I doubt Han or Leia were keen to tell him about that... Luke neither. Well Jaina and Jacen might have when torturing their little brother... but even they were young. Would they even remember all details? Winter could have but shouldn't. Best guess? Noghri guards told him lol and used to call him something akin to Lady Vader for Leia to reinforce his "Vader's heir" status.

But lets look at all the Solokids:

Jacen Solo when young battled Exar Kun over Luke's sleeping body. Anakin unlocked old Corellian supertechnology. Jaina rather stayed in the background tinkering with machines and getting along with Anakin on that hobby front. Anakin then got his epic Sith/Jedi Legacy (according to Jacen's pov who loves hero stories), with him overcoming Palpatines spirit that tried to posess him. Anakin is shaken by that revelation, Jacen loves it, feels it outshines his own Exar Kun battle.
Jacen has a hero complex and wants to be the lightsaber swinging Jedi hero from the holoshows... the one Yod a said a Jedi is not, which Luke tries to reinforce but the boy is not listening. He wants his own lightsaber in YJK, is trigger happy when slicing off Tenel Ka's arm, but that is partly her own fault due to a faulty saber crystal. The Shadow Academy played right to Jacen's fears and strengths when giving him a saber and having him duel his sister.

Jaina is a tinkerer figuring out problems and solving them. First on the technical front, then even in people when helping Tahiri later on to merge with Riina Kwaad. Jaina grows beyond the tinkerer when becoming the Sword of the Jedi and a Goddess fighting the Vong, using her skills to more than just technology.

Jacen, too has these skills, but never was much for tech prefering life and animals. His Traitor ordeal elevates his connectivity with life and skill to unite what seems to be apart or opposed on a new level so he finds the Vong in the Force, resolves the war and conflict and in the process learns more new and old lore about the Jedi, the Force and shares it with everyone around him, even if not everyone is ready to accept it or to understand it, rather living twisted forms of his truths in Dark Nest later on. Especially after his sojourn where he accumulated Force beliefs and intel from sects whose view is interesting, a puzzle piece indeed he needs, but far from the pure truth the Force could grant him and granted him before unfiltered through dogma, cults and people. Jacen lost himself in seeking the Force but looking for it through filtered media rather than the pure intuitive direct contact he always had questioned and only overcome in TUF and Traitor for brief moments of unity.


If Luke talked about his Dark Empire ordeal and dark stint, how would it have affected them? Did he? Or Didn't he and should have?

It may have kickstarted Anakins fear and given him his drive to excell as a Jedi, a protector and one choosing selfsacrifice over selfservice to the point of suicidal defense of his sister in SBS.
It may also have affected Jaina to view the Dark Side and the Force as a rather technical beast that, like a machine, can be worked and that one can always return from a misstep, and that one can view the dark as an essential part of the machine that works along the light and that both are the Force. That she as Sword of the Jedi accepts the path it shows her regardless where it leads, light or dark (as in assassination!), like Luke tried to asassinate Sith, Sith spirits, cultists, etc. all the time.
It may have affected Jacen so that he believed in the heroics of his Uncle giving more value to the fact he faced the darkside headon and went in lightsaber blazing, less focussing on his mom rescuing Luke. Likewise he may have believed that it is doable so long one has loved ones to bring one back. Something he later on no longer counted on, as he willingly took up the dark mantle knowing it is a one way trip and he would have to sacrifice his loved ones.

If Luke did not talk about it though.. how would that have affected them?

 

Theory time and stuff I'm still figuring out:

The individual isn't Krayt, though Krayt is a puppet on his in a way though the One Sith have been playing the long game in building up and it's a little too slow for this individual's taste. And no, he would likely prefer Jaina dead or dark side.

 

In this, the Jedi seem to follow the path of most societies...if you are ashamed of some of your past, you simply pretend that it doesn't exist.

I've (mostly) been a fan of Mara ever since we first met her, but her past DOES raise some uncomfortable questions. Zahn did a pretty decent job (I think) of trying to make her a sympathetic character when he delved in to some of her backstory, but there is no question that she did some really unsavory stuff as 'Hand' and that she probably should have been brought up on charges after the war. Zahn does try to make it seem like the Emperor only used her on 'morally justifiable' missions (graft, fraud...that sort of thing), but that just ignores the sort of man Palpatine was. The EU has no problem as calling her an assassin at times, which means she just wasn't doing forensic accounting.

Perhaps if she would have talked about what they did...and have served some sort of penance for those acts...this series would have turned out differently.

In fairness, ALL of their peers were going to be doing lightsabre drills that day, and I think they just happened to be the first pair. TK was trying to prove that her skills mattered more than the weapons used, and Jacen just wanted to prove that he was more than an animal-loving joker. I can agree that Jacen (indeed, all of the Solo kids) had a bit of a 'hero complex', but I think being the children of war heroes, with an uncle who is THE war hero, might tend to make them that way.

At least they killed the EU before we had to re-live that! Seeing it onscreen was bad enough.

 

At the same time, who aside from Luke and Leia knew precisely who she was? The 'Emperor's Hand' was not exactly known openly around the galaxy so I doubt she'd just up and say "Hey I was the Emperor's personal assassin, be lucky you weren't in my crosshairs." (Much the same as Luke and Leia suddenly going "Hey our dad was Darth Vader, but don't worry, we weren't raised by him or anything.")

The whole "let's be honest with a galaxy that doesn't really comprehend the complexities of the matter" thing really never made sense, even in the old EU. It would've been better if Luke kept his mouth shut to everyone except Leia, Han, Chewie, Wedge and perhaps Mon Mothma on the matter surrounding Vader/Anakin throughout everything. It'd just be speculation about who Vader was before turning on the Emperor and Luke could've gotten on with life knowing that his father died in the light side.

(And Bail Organa in the new EU would've known his daughter would never have taken the governorship of Birren and thus not sent on a holo-message going: "Oh by the way, your dad was Darth Vader, enjoy that bit of a revelation.")

 

Problem is... Evil knows, and evil loves to know a truth about the Light. Spilling it to have people flock to its side rather that of the lying Light is what it does. Secrets never serve the heroes well for long.. just look at superheroes and secret identities (for protection of loved ones)... epic fails throughout the entire lot.

People rather believe a madman that tells the truth than a well meaning one that lied one time but does the good deed. Sadly...

 

Remind me please what those were.

Sometimes I think we forget what we're debating. Well my position on this hasn't changed. Tahiri's actions are only as "rational" as the lie is possible. Its not.

Maybe.

I don't think Jacen was inured too or ignored what was actually happening. Though how he as a Jedi should respond to the Vong was a different matter in Jacen's eyes than a military response, which Jacen never opposed in principle.

Can you give an example of a Red Sith speaking as an oppressed subaltern? I don't recall any instances in which the Red Sith express an opinion of being oppressed, resentment or anti Imperial ideology.

Luke only "nearly fell".

Can you reduce my example further?

Well I think Jacen sees family and "domesticity" or even other models of family as "choosing the broad way", spiritually speaking. If he choses Danni Quee or chooses to just be a father figure to Ben then he is rejecting the spiritual walk.

Am I your Jacen? Or am I your Lumiya?

Mara killed people on Palpatine's direct command. Mostly other Imperial officials from what we can tell (and not rebels or other "good guys" because Zahn didn't want her morally compromised). I don't think she needs some sort of penance, she broke with the Empire and died literally comparing her fallen nephew to Palpatine as a curse.

I don't see any evidence of this.

You mean a neck massage and a joint meditation session?

 

@Darth Invictus Luke only nearly fell? Seriously? Have you read Dark Empire? We do not see him kill actively, but he commanded the Imperial Fleet and had to select targets for Palpatine's fleet and while he tried to spare some and picked other targets with "lesser value" he still chose who would be slaughtered!!! He had a choice between evil and evil, no lesser about it. A trap by Palpatine for him. And he played along, much to R2's dismay as the droid even shows to Luke in the comic itself. Luke did fall, hard, out of the best intentions, like his nephew.

 

I think we can assume Karrde knew. I see your point about not telling EVERYONE in the galaxy, but it also wasn't kept secret from any of the Jedi, so her story might have been a useful learning tool for them. I still think that she should have been charged, though. Luke and the Jedi simply brushing her story under a rug reeks of hypocrisy.

As it stands, the story is: Oh, she did some killing for the Emperor, but only people who really deserved it.

 

She did get arrested after the allegation was made that she was involved in the kidnapping attempt on Leia in The Last Command - the allegator also referred to her as the Emperor's Hand openly.

After Luke sprung her and she participated in Luke's attack on the Mount Tantiss's facility, I think Mon Mothma decided to quash any pending charges.