ST Harrison Ford (Han Solo) in TFA

I'm not interested in that kind of story either, and I wish it wasn't like that, but that's the only conclusion that TFA made me draw unfortunately. I remember thinking after the movie that "oh wow well Leia and Han were total failures in almost everything". Han went back to unsuccessful smuggling business and even lost the Falcon. After the OT had shown him as someone who realized that his love with Leia was more important than ships, credits and personal gain. Leia became a general but was apparently unable to prevent the total destruction of the New Republic and so far her greatest achievement is surviving in empty space for a minute, while Holdo and Poe get all the credit. And they got divorced (or separated), they raised a kid who became a Sith v2.0, killed one of them, and is also blaming them for it.

It really makes me miserable to think about these things. These are outside of any JJ Abrams quotes. And if he said that Ben Solo's parents neglected him, who am I to say otherwise?

 

Agreed. Leia and Han are great people. Kylo is not .Any questions....

 

It is a little strange, I think, that the SW movies feature a lot of suggestion that when people "go bad" (turn to the Dark Side) that its someone's fault. That's not unique to SW of course, nor is it an entirely bad thing to ponder - "what could I have done differently as a parent or teacher?" - although it can easily lead to pointless and excessive self-flagellation, guilt and depression. Yeah, maybe... MAYBE... if you had done something differently, your loved one wouldn't have gotten into drugs or crime or self-harm. Maybe. But it's dangerous to assume that people have no influence on their own choices, even young people, that they are nothing more than the sum of OUR choices.

I think in some ways the SW movies have been a bit imbalanced in this regard; it's one reason I enjoyed Yoda's talk with Luke in TLJ, and Rey telling Luke that Kylo failed HIM, also in TLJ. As a longtime SW fan, I've always argued against the strain of fandom that sees movies 1-6 as "the story of how the Jedi screwed everything up and failed everybody" (only a slight exaggeration), and TFA and TLJ as the story of "how bad parenting and more Jedi malfeasance made poor Kylo into a Nazi".

The movies don't tell us much about Kylo's upbringing, so we have to speculate. I think it's sad that they portray Han as having run off from Leia to act like he's the Han of ANH again, like some sad guy trying to recapture his youth. That being said, it would take a lot to sell me on the notion that Han and Leia's bad parenting are "responsible" for Kylo.

PS - Another weird thing about SW is just how very evil these supposedly redeemable characters are. Vader murdered kids, hands on, on Day One as a Sith, and we know he willingly participated in the incineration of one entire planet, among who knows what "off screen". Kylo assists the First Order, participates in the massacre of the villagers at the start of TFA, murders his Dad, and is party to the destruction of how many planets by Starkiller Base? We're surpassing Hitlerian/Stalinesque/Maoist levels of killing here. Vader and Kylo didn't just wander off the path, they took a hard turn and jammed the accelerator to the floor. It's hard to blame all that on "bad parenting"/"bad mentorship" unless your parents were Hannibal Lecter and Mrs. Bates from Psycho. IMHO.

 

I feel like when it came to Anakin, most blamed Anakin for his own actions, Obi Wan included. Sure he felt guilt, but when he turned Obi Wan and Yoda's mission was to take down the Emperor and Vader. They didn't think Vader could be turned back. With the ST, I think everyone takes a piece of the blame cake because they are blood related. It's human nature. The problem right now is we really don't know how Han, Luke or Leia failed Ben. It could have been Ben failing himself. It's unfortunate we do have to speculate because I do like to believe the OT characters are putting more blame on their shoulders than what really went down.

I like to think that Leia and Han were great parents and Luke was a good teacher. How Kylo became so obsessed with Vader and how Snoke got involved? We may never fully know that answer and that's nuts.

 

Even though we saw Han going a mile away, that moment on the bridge was so suspenseful. It really did have an ESB vibe to it. It was impactful, emotional, even if it was predictable, it was something to move the story along. With Luke, it's not like he was physically there sacrificing himself. It only happened because RJ wanted it to happen. Or rather LFL did to even the playing field with Rey and Kylo. When Luke vanished, I went "wtf? why?" It's as if he wanted to go at that point and become one with the force. Didn't seem like he was suffering as much from the force projection. But maybe he was finally at peace with himself and was ready to go? I have no idea it's all speculation. At least with Han, the tone is pretty much straightforward.

 

Kylo Ren killed Han Solo. Rian Johnson killed Luke Skywalker.

Han's death felt like a natural, integral part of the story, as sad as I was to see it happen. Luke's death not only feels contrived, it also seems to undermine the themes the movie was trying to convey. It doesn't feel organic. In his book On Writing, Stephen King basically lays out the difference between letting characters drive a story and plot drive a story. He envisions scenarios and does his best to let characters come to life and react organically to the situation in which they are placed. He likens 'plot' to a jackhammer used to excavate a delicate fossil. Storytelling is a process of discovery. When a writer dictates character decisions based on a need or desire to fulfill plot objectives, the characters no longer seem to speak in their own voice but that of the author. I feel like this is the case with the Last Jedi. The film is designed around a desire to subvert expectations. Rian Johnson uses an over-wrought plot to create a story with many familiar motifs from past Star Wars films. Luke Skywalker doesn't feel like Luke Skywalker because he speaks with the voice of Rian Johnson and makes decisions in service of plot rather than character. Mark Hamill delivered one hell of a performance, which goes a long way to selling bitter, jaded, rock-bottom Luke. His death, however, does not feel like a natural resolution to his character arc. It doesn't feel like a thematic capstone to Luke's journey. It doesn't even feel like it fits thematically within The Last Jedi. Put simply, Luke's death does not feel like the will of the Force. Rather, it feels like Rian Johnson's hand reaching in and plucking Luke out of the world before his time.

 

^And the result is meandering stories that are compelling, but with some terrible conclusions...just, godawful endings.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/authors/stephen-king-cant-write-good-ending-save-life-knows/

Let's not aspire to that.

 

It's not up for debate, but opine as you see fit.

 

Han's no look stormtrooper shot when he walks out of Maz's castle is one of my favourite things he does in the movie. Even he looks surprised.

 

Was Han using the Force when he made that shot? Or is he just that good?

 

Like the man said, "I call it luck."

 

I was reflecting on Han's death the other day - you know, some pre-SKYWALKER ruminations - and I have to say, the SW universe really makes its "redemptive" arcs a tough sell.

When I saw the OT, Vader was a "cool" bad guy to me, a menacing armored cyborg with a fantastic look, that great voice and raspy mechanical breathing. He was "fun" in the way that Doctor Doom, or Ming the Merciless can be. But then... in the Prequels... he slaughters the Sand People (women and children too), he hands-on kills the younglings. Pretty horrible, it really showed the "payment" required to go Dark Side. I know it's not entirely logical, because we saw Darth happily go along in the murder of billions. But... it changed my feelings about Vader. I don't think I have bought any Vader merch since.

So we see Kylo cold bloodedly murder Han Solo in TFA. It's just that, it's not combat, it's murder. Han is reaching out to him, not because he needs anything from him, but because he's Han's son (and Leia asked him) and Kylo just runs him through. Which was weeks before TLJ. It's another example of the terrible "proof" apparently required for full Dark Side acceptance.

If they decide to redeem Kylo in SKYWALKER, I hope Han gets some kind of mention, that his sacrifice is referenced as a turning point. Han's always been one of my favorite characters; I feel he's earned a better send off.

 

You are saying that, despite knowing that bad guys in Star Wars are inherently evil, seeing the specifics of their atrocities (killing younglings, patricide) makes redemption less believable/desirable for these two? Is the correct?

 

I'm noting that while it's not entirely logical, there's a difference in emotional impact between seeing someone hands on murder kids (or nearly seeing it; that flinch when Vader ignites his saber is awful), or light-saber gut their dad (and beloved OT character) and the villainy of "Mwahahaha - watch me destroy this planet with my giant Death Star lazer beam". I get that if you take the latter seriously, its Hitler-Stalin-Mao levels of badness.

My main point, in the context of this thread, is that I think the character of Han Solo deserves better than to be killed by his evil son, only to have his evil son be forgiven in SKYWALKER without Han's sacrifice being meaningful -- IF they decide to redeem Kylo (I have no clue; at this point I'm entirely unspoiled, fingers crossed).

 

I hear you. I thought Han's death was heartbreaking and poignant...yet, I always thought it'd be cool if Han would of had the detonator, looked at his kid and blown up the place before he fell...

 

Whoa there. The entire point of what Han did was to try to reach out to his son, knowing that there was a good chance he would die.

I don't live in an opposite world where Han's death should be followed by destroying the son that he died reaching out too. It's a far too simplistic and vengeful take and way out of tone for star wars.

Redeeming Kylo may be the only way to make that sacrifice meaningful.

 

Just saw this. Yikes, it was a joke, sorry it didn't land.
I also didn't realize that responding to your reply would be taken as an offense - I was part of the original thread related to King.

 

I get that; my concern is that for me, if Kylo IS redeemed, I hope they sell it well, and I hope Han is mentioned in the process. Kylo hasn't wandered a little off the straight and narrow. Just noting things we've seen him do, he kills an unarmed prisoner, has his goons rough up/torture Poe, presides over the massacre of unarmed villagers, apparently wants to restore a rights-crushing Empire, is party to the construction and use of a planet killing weapon that does in fact kill a number of planets (and would have killed more) - and kills his Dad in cold blood, when said Dad was reaching out to him. A Dad who, in our universe, is a beloved OT character finally brought back to the screen after decades.

Given that, I'm hoping if it happens, his redemption isn't a casual flip the switch thing, and I hope Han's sacrifice is noted.

 

@SHAD0W-JEDI
Agree. There has to be something that happens with Kylo, but it can't be cheap.

 

IF Han is in the movie this will help get me over his death.