ST Has The TLJ novel changed anyones opinion of the Film ?

A question: Is it true that Luke asks Rey if she is part of a "Jedi lineage" or "royalty", or is it just trolling?

The problem isn't with the Resistance/Rebellion not using kamikaze tactics against the FO/Empire, is with the fact that nobody thought of building lightspeed intelligent missile weapons during all those thousands of years FTL travel have existed...

I mean, nobody thought of grabbing a rocket, adding a small hyperdrive and a droid brain and shooting it against your foes? Sorta like you know, a space AGM-158C LRASM missile...

Anyways, the scene doesn't bother me too much, because it is epic. I am willing to suspend my disbelief in order to enjoy it...

 

Even a more simple kinetic energy weapon like a rail gun with projectiles able to travel thru hyperspace might work.
Could a hyperspace field generator be modified to envelope a section of another ship thus allowing a kinetic energy weapon a corridor thru which to travel?

 

Just FYI, Walmart has the hardcover for 20. It's only a five dollar difference, but hey. Five bucks is five bucks.

 

I know TLJ to be subjectively great.

I haven't read the book, but I noticed that on first viewing. AD did an outstanding job.

 

I am about half way through the novelization and I like it better than the movie because I know what Rey, Finn and Rose are thinking in the novelization. I didn't think I needed to know more about what Rose is thinking as she is pretty clear in the movie, but I did because all her thoughts about her sister are really helpful. Poe's thoughts are helpful too. Everything flows much better in the novelization.

 

An interesting discussion from Thor Skywalker and how Rian (and others) only make it worse by trying to explain things. I agree it's far from perfect, but I don't have a lot of big issues with the film:



There's a LOT about the original Jedi which probably Luke didn't understand - like the stuff they got right (the long periods of peace), and how far to take various tenants of their religious system that were actually good. It was all a huge confusing mess for him. Putting it back together from shattered remains and getting it all to fit again, etc. Already he had tried to do so himself, only for it to blow up. Yes, the Jedi had things going pretty well for a LONG time, but how they got TO and later TOO FAR BEYOND that point are not clear to Luke. I sort of relate this to my our journey of going from Catholicism to not being formally affilliated with any denomination. Every denomination has it's issues, and I'm not willing to be sucked into any organized religious system. I think there's a lot of Christians who could relate to that. So I can sympathize with Luke's decison here. He has no problems with the FORCE, but when it comes to ORGANIZATIONS he's very weary. I have no problem with GOD/JESUS, but I've got plenty of reservations when it comes to church groups. In my case I attend one, but am not wrapped up in the group itself. I'm more concerned about focusing on the sacred text (bible) and the well being of others, etc. I think what Luke's doing is somewhat similar, except he's being a bit of a jerk about with Rey. In his defence, I think Rey's flawed mindset about what she thought the FORCE and JEDI needed to be corrected. So also did Luke's. There's also some parallels to this when it came to secular (non-religious) powers and organisations with DJ's speech about "Don't Join" (hence his initials) where both the Republic/Resistance and Empire/First Order were both feeding the war machine coffers. Luke was taking a "Don't Join" approach by NOT starting up new order of Jedi. Locking himself away on an island was a sure way to avoid HIS part in all that. Sure there's more he could do, but he's rightly fearful of making matters even worse. Evil will rise again, but he he trusts that the force doesn't need him around personally to see to it. Let someone else do it. That, to me, was his mindset. I don't blame him personally. He already had tried and failed. The movie made that clear. The movie pretty much spells out that FAILURE was a teaching that Luke did NOT pass on. Yoda says this at the end.

 

The flaw, IMHO, in all this is simply that the Old Jedi Order, who defended the Old Republic did not exist since ROTS; so by the end of ROTJ luke was about create a NEW JEDI ORDER, wich had no true reason to follow blindly the model of the Old Jedi Order. In fact he had the chance to built a BETTER ORDER.
You go wtith the comparission with the Catholic Church, but this church today is not the same one when St. Peter found; it's not the same one of the time of the crusades; Is not the same one of the middle of the 17h century and then goes on and on.
For example, after ROTJ what could stop Luke from ending the tacit celibacy of the Jedi ? Or create a rule that would forbid child training ?
Plus the New Republic seemed so inapt in this ST that it also hardly would have any effect or imput on how the New Order should be like.
Overaal, RJ only would made sense if Luke watched the PT

 

Luke went on a journey toward learning more about the Jedi afterward though. It’s conceivable that he would have become more pious through that process until he encountered the L’ewel and had his mind blown by their concept of non-interventionism and the Tide.

The bigger factor though is that he’s deciding more about the ancient Jedi texts, which are about as old school in philosophy as the Jedi get, and whether they deserve to be read and found and discovered and risk others taking them at face value and risk potential fundamentalism from concepts thousands of years old, or end them. He also knows his presence in general is associated with the Jedi and promotes a movement he’s not in love with at that point in time. Last but not least he’s just not mentally in a good place to rebuild an order of any kind following the loss of so many in the last one.

He’s primarily focused on this discovery of the texts and whether they deserve to outlive him or not because thinking about fixing the cycle is a coping mechanism for him. It’s a distraction from his own internal issues that are eating at him. So, he creates his own purgatory. Stuck somewhere around try and between “Do” or “Do not.” Years go by where he’s probably hoping for the best off world and hoping his vision was wrong because always in motion the future is... Maybe he’s not even trying to think about it at all.

He ruined his ship. There’s no way off the island after that. And then Rey arrives and tells him it’s worse than he could have possibly imagined. Shortly after that update he begins taking his steps back.

 

He did change it. At least one thing is explained in the novel.

 

I was happy to see they revealed how Rey gained knowledge of how to use the force. When she pushed back into Kylo’s mind doors of information opened up for her and while she didn’t understand it all she was able to figure out the mind trick on the stormtrooper. Of course this comes naturally to her because I believe her bloodline’s linked to obiwans somehow. (There’s just too many parallels for her not to be imo) In the novel it also shows that Kylo is guiding her training as well when it talks about the lightsaber having something inside guiding her, felt like it had come alive in her hands. All that leads you to believe he is her teacher. They even have the next scene with him after we see her training where he’s sweaty and looks like he’s been training as well. They’re finding the force together like master/padawan. Why they were able to fight so insynce with each other against the guards. Also Anakin and Obiwan were master/padwan and everyone’s been yelling at poor Rey that she needs a teacher. Kylo now Luke. Kylo wants to teach her (wink,wink) and Luke did not. So kylo it is lol

 

2 years ago on the TFA forum I asked the question:
http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...e-catalyst-for-reys-force-knowledge.50036476/

I was also right about Rey’s junker clothes in her Vision being a hint she’d been on Jakku a long time too. Nice when things you see as logical end up being the case.

Although, I was somewhere between Reynobi and Rey Random to be honest and still kind of want a surprise where we learn she’s the granddaughter of Obi-Wan somehow at the end of the saga and that the two grandkids came together without even realizing it. Seems less likely today but who knows. Could still happen.

 

Here's some more detailed recent thoughts I've had debating the Rey Downloading/Power-up/Mary Sue thing I sent to folks who saw things differently:
"
I'm not a huge fan of that suddenly Rey's-A-Jedi either. I also agree that there should have been some kind of explanation
in the film itself, as that certainly would have cleared up unnecessary misunderstandings. THAT SAID, I think many are losing sight of the fact that George Lucas had originally designed Star Wars to be like a TV Series/Serial format with various EPISODES. Each episode is not obligated to explain what came before. It's an ongoing story. Star Wars is quite unique in this sense. It's a matter of taste. You're free not to like that approach. In it's context, it does work - in terms of story telling - albeit it does demand more from the audience - especially today's audiences. We are expected as an audience to carry forward what we have learned previously.

SO, what did we learn previously what might help us here? Let's begin with Episode IV: A New Hope when Luke is being trained by Obi-Wan regarding what the force does:
...
BEN: "Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.";

LUKE: "You mean ***it controls your actions***?";

BEN: "***Partially***. But it also obeys your commands."
...
The force PARTIALLY CONTROLS ones actions. It doesn't force you to do something, but it helps do what you're willing to do. A lot can be explained away by this. You may not like it, but that's how it's always been in the Star Wars universe. There's "no such thing as luck" (Obi-Wan) and "nothing happens by accident" (Qui-Gon). All this to say, it's not clear how much in PART Rey's actions were being controlled by the force.

The LAST Jedi. LAST. What is also important to keep in mind is that Rey's enhanced abilities are only unique due to the MOMENT she is living in. She is pretty much the LAST available light side user whom the force has chosen to be a vessel of. Aside from Luke, who had walked away, there are no other Jedi around. It's a critical milestone in history of the universe. Had she lived during the heyday of the Jedi Order she'd probably just be another regular Jedi. No Mary Sue, etc. Had any of those generic prequel era Jedi's been the sole force user available in the sequel trilogy maybe they too would be uniquely skilled and as powerful as Rey is.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Rey, Luke and Anakin are all DIFFERENT people. PERSONALITY, TEMPERAMENT - Perhaps Rey was more focused and open to the Force than those other two. It was easier for the force to "flow" through her. Luke was certainly always distracted and looking too far ahead - much more difficult to work with. Anakin had attachments, etc. Rey was basically a nobody with less to distract her. Each person also has their own "DESTINY" which lay along "a different PATH" as per Obi-Wan's parting words to Luke in ANH which which "you cannot escape" (TESB).

Other things to keep in mind about Rey is EXISTING SKILL SETS THAT CAN BE ENHANCED. She ALREADY had sub-orbital piloting skills. How is this any different than young Anakin being a skilled podracer who can do what no other human can do behind its controls? All those manuvers through the wreckage of Star Destroyers were no different than the pod race. As a scavenger and basically a mechanic she also had the abilities to work with machinery (as with Anakin and Luke). She did have skills with at least one melee weapon (a staff) prior to The Force Awakens. Luke didn't. Anakin didn't. She had a headstart. We also don't know how much she knew. Maybe someone took her under their wing early on to help her survive who was skilled, etc? Perhaps with more than just a staff. All of these existing skill sets could easily be enhanced by the force. I don't see what's so radically different here. We also do not have her full background yet.

As for Rey DOWNLOADING / POWER-UP Ren's skills. It's plausible given there's so much about the force we don't know. We don't know how much she learned in Kylo's mind - his strengths, his weaknesses, habits, etc. All of these could certainly aide one in battle (e.g. like a boxer watching previous matches of their opponents). All of these could certainly aide one in battle. What she learned may have amounted to much more than mere book knowledge and theory, but actually experiencing in a brief moment, things that took much longer (e.g. when we dream, it's not for very long, but while we are dreaming it feels much longer, etc). It's not clear what information was transferred, and how much of it would actually be needed for that matter.

As for DURATION OF TRAINING. Prequel era Jedi's had a lifetime of study. I'm not sure that is so important. I think a LOT of the training Jedi go through in that religious system could have been compressed into a shorter period. Whoever designed that religion made it much longer than need be. The duration of said training and level of detail might not be as important as simply being an OPEN vessel for the force to FLOW, and show what will happen, and respond accordingly. There's a lot we don't know here. Maybe how much the force does through a user varies depending on the circumstances. During the peak of the Jedi in the prequel era there might have been a lot less of it needed to go around, and per user less critical a role in the order of the universe. Rey as a sole light side user was in a unique position to be specially used. This point explains why she fares much better than so many others from the prequel era. Had they been the sole surviving light side user, maybe they'd have advanced more quickly, etc.

So I see nothing broken here or ruining the film.

It's just not a story being told the way we had envisioned it.

But it does work. You're free not to like it, and your opinion is valid. But what's not valid is saying it's all broken and ruined. I think I've raised enough points here to show that such a conclusion is questionable, and certainly not fact.
"

 

Yeah the problem is that this assumes that Luke learned nothing from his mentor's mistakes (which contradicts the end of ROTJ), and just did things the same way that the Old Jedi did (which also doesn't really seem to fit with that ending). Him blindly following the "old ways" just doesn't line up imo.

Also:

Spoiler

Bloodline tells us that Luke has virtually no contact with the NR (to the point that he's though off almost as a legend by many of them). He keeps himself and his students off to themselves and out of politics.

 

That's because the film never says that he referred completely too the old ways, making it an assumption on your part. An assumption which is contradicted by by Bloodline and the novelization.

 

Is there any timeline in the book for what happens AFTER Kylo destroys the Academy? Does Luke just leave? Does he tell Han and Leia "Hey, your son is going to join the First Order but I can't stay to help?" How do Han and Leia find out that Ben is now Kylo and Luke is gone? How does anyone come up with the "first Jedi Temple" idea? How does Artoo end up with Leia? Is any of that explained?

Because that to me is one of the biggest messes that TFA started & TLJ just made worse.

 

Now that I've read it, I think the novelization and film are pretty similar. I just think TLJ cut too much stuff and there were some other things we could lose (like Finn leaky bag) to put some of that stuff back in.

I know Finn leaky bag is an important moment to entertain kids, but Finn/Poe conversation in which Finn says he doesn't want Poe to get the wrong impression, that he didn't sign up for this, is the clear start of Finn's arc.

Finn's dilemma is an internal one about ideology and love, and it's not shown well enough.

Finn's arc and Rey's arc were both diminished by over cutting.

 

I think this video is a very good discussion of why the insights we get in the novel are so layered...

 

Aspects of this related to the novel:

A) Luke’s actions lead to the Force awakening in Rey. He likely doesn’t know it and neither does she.

B) He later realizes he was wrong about the galaxy being a better place without a Jedi Order and that there may be no better guidance or philosophy to guide those gifted with the Light. That they need something or they risk being drawn to the Dark. He admits this. He says he was unwise and weak. Yoda states that they lost Ben but lose Rey they must not. Luke takes action to show he believes that.

C) Because of B it doesn’t really matter that Luke really was unwise and weak for a number of years following trauma because he learned his lesson before the end. Just as his father did. And if we can accept a good man like Anakin making unwise and weak choices for decades that are far worse than what Luke did then I don’t see how we can’t accept Luke for less or be happy for his atonement with his sister and also to Ben personally. Vader never apologized as directly and certainly not to more than one person obviously. It’s a beautiful mini arc of the Vader redemption arc with Luke’s own mortality killing him instead of him allowing the Dark Side to take over and kill others.

D) We’d seen him lose control before. The Last Jedi confirms ROTJ’s wasn’t the last of those episodes and for all we know there may have been others but he’s been able to reign them in and reset and regain control. He did the same here but this time he faced consequences regardless.

Based on the above, this is why I think Luke’s redemptive arc is poignant, moving, thought-provoking and beautiful and that it adds to and enriches the generational Skywalker mythology

I can understand disappointment in realizing that the moment in ROTJ wasn’t the only time the Dark Side called out and he listened and let it guide his actions. I can understand being disappointed in how he tried to cope. But he knows he was wrong about both in the end and that period of his life was much shorter than all that came before and in the end he rediscovered his sense of peace and purpose.

Isn’t that arc one of the most beautiful aspects of the OT in the first place? We experience a different aspect in the son but he never loses himself fully and never becomes what he feared most. Becoming another Vader. And he never killed family. Even when they were at their worst. Even if the Dark Side nearly compelled him to. He took back control each time. More control than his father or nephew had.

It would have been fun wish fulfillment for us to have his OT arc be the only serious psychological hurdle he faced and for the ST to be a breeze of highlights and force power and wisdom but I’m more grateful to see him learn and overcome as he used to even as an older man and become more than a cliched master trope because I’m getting older now too and just found it tragic and was so happy and moved in the end when he found his path back to the Light again and eventually became one with the Light.

To me, it’s both existential and spiritual. It’s both very human and also very mythological. It’s as if an angel was so concerned to never repeat the sins of his father who’d acted as a devil, and so concerned with the cycle of violence that’s gone on for thousands of years, that he sat in purgatory and nearly relinquished his right to Heaven by wanting to end organized religion and his connection to the Force itself. He’s inspired by others and realizes he’s wrong and does one final act of good to help save others impacted by his mistake and then gets to enter Force heaven. That’s beautiful.

The story of the Skywalkers is bigger than my desire for either of them to have perfect lives. They are myth. They exist to teach, get us thinking, get us debating and move and inspire us. The Last Jedi added to and enriched their unique generational myth. The real tragedy would have been reducing Luke’s story to a generic, cliched wise, perfect master who has very little to teach us through his action and who just espouses wise and teaches and/or kicked butt and that’s it. That’s what so many others seemed to want and I’m thankful every month that passes that Johnson aimed for more. Even if he didn’t hit every target and even if the extended edition and deleted scenes show Johnson could have been more overt and removed some of the nuance... I’m happier that there’s something there to dig into for a long time than fan service.

 

Honestly, every arc was diminished by over cutting. There are a few small bits and bobs that are better on the cutting room floor, but there is a good ten minutes or more worth of material that, if had been left in the film, would have significantly helped with the story, and motivations of the characters. I can't think of a character that would actually have had it worse if their deleted scene was kept in, except Hux and his pitiful display in the biting sequence. I'm not sure how much of the scenes from the novel were shot, made up by the other, written but never filmed, etc. but the film could have been MUCH stronger with their inclusion.

 

No one has seriously asked for this. Besides, there is no "unique" generational myth here. It's Luke utterly failing like his masters with no real sign that he learned from his father's or the Jedi's examples. His role as a mentor is completely nonexistent in the film as well, which is an equally baffling decision given that was one of the major developments of his life.

 

I suspect he will mentor more from beyond in IX and in the end deliver a comparable amount of mentoring to Rey to that of what Obi-Wan provided Luke. A man who specialized in mentoring and whose whole plan WAS Luke from birth forward.

If Luke ends up mentoring a total stranger about 90% as much as Obi-Wan did his only hope by the time IX ends then I’m not sure what the point of outrage over him ending up closer to her Obi-Wan then her Yoda would be.

 

You speaking for all fans now?

I supposed I dreamed up the scores of Luke fans I saw online expecting Luke to show up wiser than ever, more powerful than ever, dominating the story, kicking ass and taking names. I saw very, very little in fan theories that painted Luke as anything but an all good demi-god, who'd just been the victim of circumstance when he lost his blushing baby gurl.

I'm not convinced that a Ghost Luke will be used primarily for Rey, as much as for the actual Skywalker, Kylo. With Carrie now gone Mark seems more important than ever in helping wrap up Kylo's tale (unless they find a way to bring Harrison back).

Regardless, a journey back through the Mark Hamill ST threads show a lot of diehard Luke fans who resented even the idea of Luke being relegated to an Obi-Wan/Yoda position. To the point that both of those storied, legendary characters were basically being spit on because Luke would never, ever turn out to be like those failures. I debated with those people quite a bit. When it comes to Luke there are fans who wouldn't have been satisfied with anything less than a near perfect character that dominated the entire story.

 

Going by this logic, ROTS should be a pretty mediocre film, since the novelisation adds a lot to the story and enriches it considerably.

 

who said they didnt try and build one maybe they failed, and lets say they even did succeed at it, at some pt a counter measure would have been invented to help stop it or curb it like throughout entire human history. people use to beat each other to death with sticks and rocks, than swords were invented, a genius invented bow and arrows to take advantage of long range, the opposition got smart and invented shields and armor etc etc etc....

Plus that was not really the argument that was being used before, it was why were the rebels never kamakizing themselves before to just win the war quick and I think I explained it well with logic so the goal post as usual on here has been moved.

 

1138 piece from me on the TLJ novel and how it can work, even when I don't like TLJ as a film:

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2018/03/jason-fry-and-fixing-up-the-new-star-wars-canon/

Take a look, it may surprise you.