ST Hayden Christensen (Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader) in IX

Utilizing Yoda from a storytelling perspective worked better for TLJ than Anakin would have IMO. More than just a nostalgic callback, Yoda is making a similiar point to Luke as he did when they first met in ESB that speaks more to where Luke is mentally with his disillusionment with the Jedi and cutting himself off from the Force. I agree that the dynamic with Anakin would have needed to be a comparison of his fall with that of Kylo Ren's to work. What RJ did extremely well was to give Luke an arc within the TLJ that made him as equally important and relevant to the story as Rey despite Mark Hamill's personal disappointment with the storytelling choice.
If recent stories are correct that the Jedi Force ghosts may take an active role in the confrontation with Kylo and/or Palpatine giving JJ a very organic way to introduce Anakin into the plot without expository dialog to explain his not appearing in either TFA or TLJ. Not having Hayden Christensen appear would be a huge lost opportunity and it seems pretty unlikely that HC would be making these appearances if Anakin was being left out of the movie. Given Anakin's centrality to the Saga, HC's screen time is not what would be important but his relevance to the scene(s) and overall plot.

 

No. By that rationale, they are different things to different people. It doesn't equalize anything.

If a thousand people like a movie, but ten people don't like it, then it's a good movie to those thousand people.....but that has no bearing on the opinion of the ten who don't like it, nor is there necessarily anything wrong with the ten who don't like it. And even then, the thousand people who like the movie may like it for all manner of different reasons (cinematography, music, actors, brings back memories, etc.)

 

To clarify...in my opinion publicly stating GL was being brought on board as a "consultant" was a way of countering criticism that Abrams and Johnson didn't understand the mythos of the Skywalker story or the legacy of the characters.

 

Rey wasn't relevant though. She was made a mere side character when it should have been about her while Luke imparted wisdom to Rey. Instead Luke was forced into completely nonsensical and unnatural part as being lesser to Yoda when the entire point was that in the OT he did surpass his masters. What Yoda says is relevant to him as he failed and Luke surpassed him. Having him impart that lesson to Luke makes no sense. Luke knows all about failure being a teacher while Rey knows nothing about it. Why have Luke forget then relearn that which he already knew? It pointless as that should be something that Rey needs to learn.

 

TLJ's all about Rey. She's the catalyst for everything.

 

Keep in mind, though, that Luke had an advantage that no other Jedi had: he was Vader's son. Technically speaking.... Luke didn't win as a result of his powers, he only succeeded in making Anakin make the choice that he failed to make in the PT - to take out the evil Emperor regardless of the consequences to himself and those he loved. Luke demonstrated the strength of character that Anakin needed to emulate... And had Vader not changed, all three of them would have died on the Death Star.

Regardless, Vader made the choice, and the sacrifice, that was needed to win the rebellion.

Because that's exactly what Luke did to Vader... Although it wasn't so much about "forgetting", but moreso about fighting through one's own fears and self-doubts.

 

Yeah, but just like how people assert Rey isn't Luke, Luke isn't Vader.

 

Your point being?

 

Anakin fell because he was a far more volatile individual and Luke actually had an example of someone who showed what would happen if he fell down the dark path. When he defeated his father, he understood that to wantonly kill the way Anakin did the Tuskens or Dooku or the Separatists would only lead to disaster. He would be playing into the Emperor's hands. So, having Luke contemplate striking down his nephew is pure folly from a storytelling perspective.

 

The point being that no one thought Anakin could return expect Luke. That was Yoda and Obi-Wan's failure. This is the entire key point so to have Luke then turn around DECADES later and decide "You know I really should have killed Vader after all." makes no sense at all.

Never mind the Rebellion. That's a temporary thing. It was the balance of the Force that was important. The Sith ruled the galaxy thousands of years before and there was balance in the Force. If the Force is still out of balance then the Sith still exist therefore the Light is struggling.

It was completely forgetting his own personal experience with Vader and Sidious then being presented with Ren and Snoke and saying "I'm going to kill this guy because of all the things he might do or even if he already has done some." which he did as he was all set to kill everyone at the temple. All Luke had to do was wait a short while longer (maybe even that night) for Ben to play his hand.

 

With as much crap as George gets for the ROTJ edit, I can see people/TPTB not caring if a lack of HC Anakin in 9 makes it pointless. If they are going to undo his sacrifice then who cares about his redemption.

 

Actually, I'm of the opinion that Ben and Yoda knew Luke was the key to turning Vader, but that's another discussion.

Well, I'm not a fan of TLJ, so I tend to ignore its impact on the OT. I loved TFA, so we'll see if JJ and ROS can save the storyline.

 

Headcanon is one thing, but that's sure not in the movie.

 

"The part I am working on now [ROTJ] is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel.. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film." - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays

 

Which isn't in the movie. Which seems to be the standard the ST's held to with the supplementary-stuff-or-director-commentary-doesn't-count stuff.

Also, if that quote's from the OT era, the PT seems to contradict it. Obi-Wan and Yoda sure don't seem to be holding onto any hope for the guy by the end of EpIII.

 

Interesting that Lucas said this, but he never really committed to it on film.

 

Yeah, and Obi-Wan's talk with Luke on Dagobah in RotJ seems to think that killing Vader is the only option. Luke says he can't kill his father, Obi-Wan's reaction is basically if you cannot, then the Emperor wins. Personally I don't think Yoda or Obi-Wan thought redemption was possible.

Interestingly Vader makes a comment about how Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did, as in, redemption. Was always hoping we would get a moment where Obi-Wan tried to get Vader to comeback from the dark side, shame that never happened, at least on screen, not very familiar with all the books and such.

 

I won't too detailed, but if you look at it as reverse psychology, forcing Luke to find another method other than killing his father, it makes a little more sense. Look at how Neo was talked to in the Matrix. Even the Oracle said Neo wasn't "The One", and then slipped this in:

ORACLE: Sorry, kid. You got the gift but looks like you're waiting for something.

NEO: What?

ORACLE : Your next life, maybe. Who knows? That's how these things go.

She's literally telling him that he has to die in order to become The One, but it doesn't really resonate until after he is resurrected. Imagine how knowing he would be killed in the Matrix would have affected his decisions.

Similarly, if Luke were told that he only had to convince Vader to turn so that all would be well, then Luke's sacrifice wouldn't really have been a sacrifice. Luke had to truly believe that somehow, some way, if he acted in the manner of a Jedi and was willing to sacrifice himself, his father, and his friends in the face of certain destruction, the Force prophecy would come true. Luke's decision is encapsulated in this exchange:

LUKE
Your overconfidence is your weakness.

EMPEROR
Your faith in your friends is yours.

Turns out Luke was right, and Palpatine was wrong. Luke had to have faith in something other than himself....in his friends, in the Force....because to strike down Vader and/or Palpatine would be to fall right into Palp's plan. Palp insisted that no one else would save Luke, but Luke had to have faith that they would. What he didn't know was that demonstrating this strength of character was the catalyst Vader needed to finally break himself free of his self-imposed bonds - to stop fearing death, and do the right thing no matter the consequences, even if it meant his death.

Remember, Luke and Leia were hidden because Palpatine considered them a threat. Even in ESB, he believed the son of Skywalker could destroy them. What Palpatine may didn't understand was that they were not a direct, physical threat, but a means to return Anakin to his former self, to regain the humanity he believed he lost when he became a Sith.

But if Luke, Vader, or even the audience got a whiff of this, then the tension would be lost. EVERYONE had to be convinced that Luke was heading for certain death for his actions to have any real meaning, rather than just "waiting around for the prophecy to fulfill itself". Hell, Luke wasn't even told about the Prophecy, even though it existed in the OT novelization, and was later brought to life in the PT. Luke serves the Prophecy best by not knowing about it...as is demonstrated by Anakin's poor decisions despite having full knowledge of the Prophecy. Up until the very end, even Anakin no longer believed he was the Chosen One, until he finally acted. At that point, he didn't act "because of the Prophecy", but because it was the right thing to do, but it was those actions that fulfilled the Prophecy.

 

That quote was from the PT era. The Annotated Screenplays came out post Special Editions, while he was making The Phantom Menace and had decided the story of Anakin Skywalker was going to be a Chosen One prophecy story. It's just another example of Lucas retconning his own creative history as a means to knit together the myth that it was all part of some grand plan.

At no point during the writing, producing, directing, or editing of Return of the Jedi did George Lucas suggest Ben and Yoda honestly thought Luke could redeem Vader. Their inability to see a redemption for Anakin is one of the aspects that leads to Luke's ultimate victory being so charged. Literally nobody thought he could do this. Not Anakin, not Palpatine, not Ben, and not Yoda. Retroactively suggesting in an interview decades later that it was a part of Ben's secret hope devalues, just a little bit, the enormity of Luke's victory there, and assigns that little bit to Ben instead. Much in the same way that refitting Anakin's story to be a Chosen One prophecy shifts the perspective of Luke's personal victory in redeeming Anakin Skywalker to make less Luke's reward for belief in the power of love and forgiveness, and more Anakin's fulfillment of a pre-ordained role.

 

Well, no one is forced to buy into it, but the OT has had a Prophecy since the novelization, and Lucas did have some ideas about the PT when he wrote the OT. And there's been plenty of ideas shoe-horned into the films, or dropped ideas that were brought back later. I think it adds a nice layer of complexity underneath the events, but that's just me.

 

I understand what you re saying, but - at the same time - simply because Lucas didn't tell this to the world prior to 1997 doesn't mean it wasn't in the back of his mind. It simply means he didn't fill in that detail until the appropriate time.

Did he suggest otherwise?

George Lucas did. I think its entirely possible that George knew as Yoda and Obi wan did, if they urged Luke to redeem Vader the events would not play out as they needed to. Luke needed to come to this conclusion on his own; against all odds. I think a credible case can be made and this is precisely what Yoda meant by "only a fully-trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor". Obi Wan and Yoda didn't instruct Luke to "kill" Vader. They stated that Luke must "confront" Vader. Luke is the one to make the jump to "I can't kill my own father".

One could choose to look at it as retro active, sure. I don't think its nearly as certain as you seem to. I think it is just as likely it simply was a detail which wasn't filled in yet or one that Lucas was playing close to his chest. I give George a lot of space here that I do not afford to the current crop of "creatives" because George is the creator. Everyone is playing his sandbox.

 

Precisely.

I might also point out that Luke was never specifically warned about Force lightning. That's a curious omission. Had he known it could easily be blocked with a lightsaber, we would have had a significantly different ending. Ben allowed Palps to keep that ace up his sleeve.

 

I thought it was implied by the dialogue though.

LUKE: "I can't do it, Ben."
OBI-WAN: "You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again."
LUKE: "I can't kill my own father!"
OBI-WAN: "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."


And again in ROTS, with a role-reversal for Obi-Wan.

OBI-WAN: Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin.
YODA: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not.
OBI-WAN: He is like my brother ... I cannot do it.
YODA: Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is . . . Consumed by Darth Vader.

And again with Padme:
Padme: You're going to kill him, aren't you?
Obi-Wan: ...He has become a very great threat.


Imo the ending of ROTJ is more satisfying knowing not Obi-Wan, Yoda, or The Emperor (and possibly Leia for that matter) thought Vader could be redeemed.
It's just Luke.

 

"face" Vader, not "kill" vader

I feel as though the fact that Luke is the only one to use the word "kill" is important. This further demonstrates that he is not a Jedi yet. He doesn't become a Jedi until he tosses his saber and refuses to kill his defenseless father. I find it harder to believe that Yoda and Obi Wan are, in fact, advocating patricide. YMMV.

ETA:

He says he won't and he doesn't... for better or worse.

Again, Obi Wan doesn't actually say he is going to kill Anakin. He simply states a related fact.

 

But Obi-Wan's "Then the Emperor has already won" is directly in response to "can't kill."
He is directly advocating his killing Vader, also calling him "more machine now than man... twisted and evil".

I know Lucas has once said otherwise IIRC, but Lucas changes his mind alot, the intention when they wrote this scene seems pretty clearly to be the elder Jedi think Vader is a lost cause.
In this case it is less grey than some people try to make it - they were training Luke to take him out, Luke just finds another way.

It is also pretty apparent when it is paralleled in ROTS, Obi-Wan tried to make excuses to get out of it but Yoda hints to "use your feelings" hence Obi-Wan asks Padme, the other person who knows Anakin best.

And it is pretty clear when Padme asks if he is going to kill Anakin he doesn't say no. I don't see why he would think differently in ROTJ.