ST Hayden Christensen (Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader) in IX

I agree this is the way the scene plays out and what one is most likely to take away from the initial viewing, but I feel it is also entirely possible Obi Wan is allowing Luke to work through these issues on his own. He is allowing Luke to develop into a Jedi, but he is not prescribing a specific action. Obi Wan knows its important that Luke confront Vader. How Luke goes about that, however, is just as important. To me, killing Vader represents the quick and easy path.

Please understand I'm not saying that Obi Wan necessarily believes in this scene that Anakin can be redeemed, specifically. I am, however, pretty sure he knows that if Luke strikes Vader down in anger, the galaxy would plunge deeper into darkness.

We are on the journey with Luke. We see things this way because that's how Luke sees them, but he is not a Jedi yet. His manner of thinking is not fully formed; clouded by darkness, perhaps...

I acknowledge what you are saying, but that isn't how these scenes land with me anymore. I find it quite compelling that Luke in ROTJ and Obi Wan in ROTS both use the word "kill", but specifically state "I can't" and "I won't" and in both cases it is true; they don't.

ETA: Also, Yoda never actually instructs Luke or Obi Wan to "kill" Anakin.

 

I wouldn't confuse ROTS Ben with ROTJ Luke. Again, Luke was in a very unique situation... And his and Leia's birth, which was unknown to Palpatine, really changed the situation, hence Ben staying on Tatooine to keep an eye on him, and Ep IV being called "A New Hope".

One thing that I felt was missing from ROTS was Palpatine not saying something about Anakin's offspring, but then again, I'm not sure who he'd say it too. I guess he was just too busy bragging about Anakin.

 

"Confront" in the context used means "fight, kill" though.

As the other poster said, Luke says he's incapable of killing his own father, and the reaction there is basically "then we're screwed". That was their game plan, get the son of Skywalker to take out Vader without turning into the Emperor's new apprentice himself.

Yoda & Obi-Wan didn't get the big picture, that's a big part of Return Of The Jedi as a film.

 

That's certainly one interpretation... But were that the case, why not tell Luke to confront, or "kill", Palpatine? Palpatine is the one in charge, is he not? If someone needs to be killed, certainly they'd want him to focus on Palpatine, right?

Yoda and Ben instead tell Luke to focus on Vader. AND they fail to tell Luke about Palp's Force lightning. That's a SERIOUS omission.

Yes, but when Vader threatens Leia, Luke loses it and almost kills Vader. He's one strike away before he realizes how powerful the Dark Side has made him. It's his ability to turn back from the power, the lure of the Dark Side that helps to turn Vader back from the Dark Side, because Vader actually sees Like do that which he has convinced himself is impossible: "It is too late for me, my son."

But killing Palpatine wouldn't have convinced Vader to turn back. Most likely that would only have reinforced Vader's belief that using the Dark Side was the only way to get what he wanted.

Something had to come along to change his mind between what he thought he wanted, and what he really needed instead.

Not to mention the fact that Palpatine using his Force lightning provided an excellent distraction from Vader, who was put in a position where he could kill Palpatine out of love for his son, rather than for a hateful desire for revenge, or fear, or power.

I'm of the opinion that Luke was sent in as a sacrifice lamb... a last chance to make Vader confront his own actions, and see that for all the power he believed the Dark Side gave him, in the end, he actually lost everything he had ever cared for. Vader had to realize for himself that his pursuit of the Dark Side only made him more and more Palp's puppet. Putting Luke in danger forced Vader to make a choice between living as a slave to Palp's evil will, or sacrificing himself for the greater good of others...a truly selfless act.

But just as Neo was made to ignore the Prophecy so that he could, in fact, fulfill it with pure thought, deed, and faith... So, too, was Luke not made aware of the Prophecy, so that his acts could truly be guided by the Will of the Force, unencumbered by personal desires or bias, and serve as a mirror, and model, for Vader.

 

I'm kind of in-between. I think Luke came to the conclusion @MeBeJedi is talking about on his own after finding out the extent of Vader's own injuries after his defeat and how closely his prosthetics began to parallel his. It was a piece of morbid symbolism attained in the midst of battle that gave Luke his epiphany and rounded out his belief.

 

Yes, but in Luke seeing what the Dark Side could turn Luke into, Vader saw what the Dark Side had turned him into. Without Luke falling to the Dark Side and being able to turn back, Vader would have continued to believe that doing so was impossible -as he kept telling Luke, and himself, so many times.

But Yoda and Ben telling Luke that he would have to fall to the Dark Side to save his father would not have had the same effect. Luke would more likely have chosen to stay away rather than risk almost killing his own father. In fact, when he sensed Vader on the approach to Endor, he believed that it was a mistake to have gone on the mission.

 

Maybe they didn't think he was up to it? Even pre-prequels I think we all assumed even before the Jedi duel that Palpatine was probably a bigger deal than Vader, force-wise. All of Vader's ramblings about the power of the force and stuff, he's not going to be subservient to anyone who's not a beast of an adept with said religious mumbo-jumbo.

But killing Vader, without turning yourself, that's still a pretty big hurdle/achievement to pass if he could pull it off.

Prior to the prequels we had nothing to indicate either Yoda or Obi-Wan had ever seen/fought the guy face-to-face though. Probably a fair assumption to make at the time that they simply didn't know about the lightning in order to offer a caution.

With hatred.

That's not what Yoda & Obi-Wan instructed him to do. It's possible to take down Vader in a fight using the lightside path to fighting, Obi-Wan has some personal experience with that. Luke continuing down that road of lashing out aggressively with anger and vengeance over the threat was a failure, one he overcame before seeing it through.

Exactly. But Yoda & Obi-Wan don't expect he'll turn back, regardless. That's not their mission by that point. They're trying to cut the head off the Imperial snake, and do it the right way through fighting with honor/righteousness. That's different to how Luke defeats Vader in combat, that's not what his masters wanted.

And then Luke runs with the third option they hadn't considered/predicted, and it pays off.

I mean, again, interpretations are interpretations, everyone's entitled to it. But that's not what's presented in the movie.

"I can't kill my own father" - "Then the Emperor has already won." Obi-Wan's not some perfect infallible being of wisdom, he like the prequels Jedi with the prophecy doesn't grasp the big picture. Dude's long since given up on the supposed naivety of Anakin being able to be turned back. Luke proves him wrong, that's the importance of the ending there, Luke rises above.

 

But what's the point? Killing Vader doesn't stop Palpatine, especially if, as you say, Yoda and Ben believe Luke can't kill Palpatine. His plans still go forward.

And if Luke kills Vader, there's no one to save Luke from Palpatine later.

Doesn't sound like a good plan.

Perhaps, but we now must argue this scene in light of the entire saga, which means they did know.

"I will not fight you."

And yet Luke's original intent, and defining "final" act, was to not fight either of them, not even with the Light Side.

Palpatine is the head of the snake, so again, why focus on Vader? It's a pointless gesture, especially with Luke saying he can't kill his father... unless there's another plan under the surface.

The third option was to do nothing, and let Palpatine kill him. Luke even told Palps at the beginning, "soon I'll be dead, and you with me." Luke deliberately went in as his own sacrificial lamb, not realizing that that went doubly true for Ben and Yoda's plan.

Not explicitly, no. But in hindsight, and with some clues from Lucas, there's a lot going for it.

 

Killing Vader and being strong enough to not fall darkside personally doesn't end the war/off Palpatine in itself, no. But it's a big blow to the guy, and suddenly you've got an incorruptible Jedi out there, early-20s in age, who's only going to grow more powerful with time & experience. Maybe able to best Sheev down th line where Yoda & Obi-Wan couldn't, chosen-one blood and all.

Regarding Luke's decision to stop fighting Vader and not attempt to fight Palpatine...uhh, yes? That's the whole point. That's defying what Yoda & Obi-Wan sent him there to do. It may have even been a suicidal mission from the two of them, the rational part of them thinking he had no way to win, but that's what they sent him there to do. Fight Vader, kill Vader, fight/kill Palpatine if he had to. Luke found the other path, which the other two guys in all their wisdom hadn't cottoned onto yet.

Regarding Palpatine being the "head of the snake" in a certain sense that's true. Palpatine's the head, but Vader's basically enacting his bidding for the most part, you take down Vader without succumbing to Palpatine's schemes (ie. becoming his new apprentice), you've delivered a pretty huge blow. Therefore, as Obi-Wan rightly says (from the perspective of someone who hasn't seen/believed turning Anakin back is any possibility), if Luke can't find the fortitude to slay his dad, the galaxy's doomed to darkness and the Emperor's whims.

He's wrong, of course, but he doesn't understand that at the time. Luke's the revelation in all of this.

 

And you've got Palpatine killing him with lightning, and the rebellion has been destroyed. He wins.

Luke said he wouldn't fight Vader, he can't kill his father, and Aximili86 said Luke can't defeat Palpatine.

And again, Palpatine kills Luke with lightning and defeats the rebellion.

You keep acting like Luke would somehow kill Vader and get away from Palpatine... Despite Luke's own comment that he went there to die.

And Palpatine is absolutely the head of the snake, of which Vader is only a small part. Palpatine's also got the entire imperial fleet and a Death Star on his side.

Killing Vader does nothing to stop Palpatine's plan.

 

Nobody said Yoda & Obi-Wan's plan was a sound one, dude. It's basically never presented as being the way to win, they were desperate and more importantly they were wrong with the big game.

That was their plan all the same. Luke wins by trying something else that wasn't foreseen even by a wise muppet and iconic British ghost-thespian. Like you say, if he's followed instruction to the book he loses, Palpatine prevails.

That's the point of the ending.

 

Or they did get the big picture, but needed Luke to find it on his own.

NEO
Morpheus, the Oracle... she told me --

MORPHEUS
She told you exactly what you
needed to hear. That's all.
Sooner or later, Neo, you're going
to realize just like I did the
difference between knowing a path
and walking a path.


Again, they keep saying "confront Vader", not "kill Vader", and they want Luke to focus on Vader, while ignoring Palpatine. And that's because Palpatine was never Luke's fight....it was always Anakin's, because he is the Chosen One.

"Sam Davatchi's website reports that George Lucas told a reporter for Studio Magazine that Anakin is indeed the one who brings balance to the force. In this interview, Lucas said that Anakin vanquished the Emperor and brought balance to the Force, although he did need help from Luke to do so. In addition, Lucas said that Anakin is the only person who could do that, because he is the only one who had enough power and was close enough to the emperor to destroy him. As pointed out by Cinescape Online, this fits into the following statement made by Lucas in the Making of Episode I book: "The mystery around [the chosen one] theory is that we don't know yet whether the chosen one is a good or bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out." (6/18/99)

 

The only reason they use "confront" is that they're the good guys in a fairytale story genre-movie. You're not going to use the explicit hardline-toned "kill" as a writer when you're trying to portray Yoda & Ben as these above-the-fray warrior monks doing ethereal-mother-nature-Jebus' good work, you soften it a bit for the kiddies and keep your Muppet Mr Miyagi & Kindly Old Wizard out of the muck & mud of harsh realities. But that's what was being communicated with the "confront", in-movie. A fight, Luke prevailing. Not a "go appeal to his better angels and try your luck".

And who's debating whether or not Anakin's the Chosen One? Of course he is. But he doesn't come back light if it's not for Luke. Luke being a part of Anakin's Chosen One journey, as his progeny.

 

Luke: "I can't kill my own father."

Ben Kenobi: "Then the Emperor has already won."

Seems pretty obvious to me that Ben is upset that Luke isn't up to the task of killing his father.....

 

Yup.

 

The plot twist in IX will be that Anakin faked his death to open a boutique store on Tattooine. When Rey confronts him about this he immediately responds with "YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY FLOWERS".

 

LUKE: I can't kill my own father.

LUKE: I will not turn...and you'll be forced to
kill me.

You might want to rewatch that scene to see how "upset" Ben is.

 

How bout disappointed? I really see no other interpretation other than Ben thinking Luke needed to end Vader.

 

That was a quick change in interpretation....

Just as Neo saw no other interpretation that he was not The One, especially since the Oracle even told him as much.

Seriously, guys....you act like this is the first time that Ben has not misrepresented important information to Luke....

 

Err, yes. Palpatine/Vader "kill" people, they're the bad guys.

When you're dealing with a fairytale archetype you're probably going to euphemise that for the kiddies when it's relating to what the good guys are presenting as a course of action. Yoda & Obi-Wan aren't saying "verbally confront, see what comes of it" when they send Luke off. The intention is for him to best Vader in combat, fatally.

And yes, it's a ****ty plan that wouldn't have worked, Sheev's just going to fry his nuts off afterward and cackle maniacally, unless Plan A of turning Luke has come to pass.

Which is the point. Luke saw/believed something that his masters didn't/couldn't, that Vader could be turned and that was how to end it.

 

Just using a more precise word. The point remains

I don't see it as analogous. Ben isn't testing Luke. He's telling him what needs to be done. The Oracle is telling Neo he has to figure out what's to be done for himself.

 

But the only person saying the word "kill" is the main protagonist......you know, the "good guy".

If what you say is true, then Luke should be saying "confront" as well.

Regardless, this is silly out-of-universe logic with no basis in fact. Why pretend what might have been going through Lucas' mind, when we have actual evidence of what was going through Lucas' mind?

"All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't get this in the first film." - George Lucas: Annotated Screenplays

Or they did, but didn't want Luke burdened with the knowledge of the Prophecy like his father had been.

Yes, to "confront" Vader.

She literally tells The One that he's not The One...

 

Saying he can't do it. As in, you know, killing people is a negative.

 

LUKE: I will not turn...and you'll be forced to
kill me.

And I'm amazed at how well Luke and the Rebellion did by not killing A SINGLE IMPERIAL SOLDIER.

LOL....Sorry....I'm gonna have to ignore this part of your reasoning....it's lame.

 

Dude Luke is clearly the one arguing against killing Vader.

This argument is a bit perplexing.
Luke was indicating he wasn't yet a truly enlightened Jedi by ... saying "kill" in a sentence about not wanting to kill Vader. I think you are reaching.

Yes, the moment he refuses to do so and throws away his saber is when he is there, he has found enlightement and is a Jedi.
He finds a third way that his Jedi mentors hadn't considered.