Lit Heading into the Denningverse for the first time (DNT, LotF reading journal)

Sure thing, sweetie...

 

To try and be spoiler free and answer the question, "what does LOTF have over NJO?"

I would say if it has anything-it has a smaller, more compact story. Yes its still a galactic crisis and all-but its not got near the cast of the NJO or the total word count. Its nine books, not nineteen. Which were written by less authors.

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Due to reasons widely discussed on TFN, this didn't really help the series.

 

Smaller but not more compact. It suffered from something that's even a problem with trilogies... thinking one plotline would last 9 books, but only having enough material for a few, and not realizing it until you're in the middle of writing it. Which led to dragging some things on and on, and also to some crazy plot twists to mix it up in an unplanned way. And of course let's call it "imperfect collaboration" between authors. Also they kept giving Denning the conclusion in the 9-part cycle, and he's terrible at concluding.

 

So, it suffers from the Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice and Fires problems?

 

I have some rebuttals for you:

1) I would say the butter stretched over too much bread is more of a problem with FOTJ than LOTF, as here there were enough events to fill up a nine book series. The war is a wonderful application of Sanderson's third law.

2) Also, you mention plot twists, but one thing I love about LOTF is that there are almost no plot twists and the whole story works by unfolding rather than revelation.

3) Really unpopular opinion: I think the "imperfect collaboration" actually helped rather than hindered the series, as the authors were motivated to cook up spectacular plots to one-up each other (compare it to the blandness of the books of Golden in FOTJ, a fact which amazed me, as I loved her Warcraft books).

4) I would have agreed with you ten years ago, but now I support the tight focus on

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Jacen vs Jaina

as a deliberate stylistical choice. Also,

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the war stuff is pretty much summed up by Jacen's internal monologue - Carbos Thirteen and all that,

you don't need much more. And if you do, you have Sinre's extra chapters

 

Don't hold your breath. Allston's better than the others, but one of the features of LOTF and FOTJ is an ultimately sterile portrait of the Jedi as a bunch of commandos who do nothing but sit around the Temple all day, with no philosophical component and no internal life beyond the Jedi Masters arguing furiously with each other any time Luke is out of the building.

 

And TBH I don’t think there was a conscious reason for this-as in “philosophical discussion is boring-infighting when Luke isn’t around is cool” reason why that is the case.

I think it was due to the styles and focuses of the authors and the limits of the way the series(s) were written.

Not to mention it requires imagination and thought to develop philosophical and religious content for the Jedi, dialogue, schisms, etc... And not just bickering which is pretty easy to write.

 

No. They are written by single authors, except for Wheel of Time which was almost finished by the original author, and his wife handpicked the author to take his detailed notes to finish its last two books. And ASOIAF is just taking a while. There is really no comparison.

1) FOTJ is worse in that regard, but LOTF isn't good either. Dragging out Jacen's fall even after killing Nelani. Dragging out who he will sacrifice. Dragging out them finding out he's gone dark. Dragging out he's the one who killed Mara. All while filled with useless nonsense with Mandalorians and not knowing what to do with Han/Leia, and butchering Luke for drama's sake.
2) I disagree, see some of the stuff above. Jacen, Lumiya, Niathal, the whole premise of Han/Leia's arc, etc.
3) NJO was imperfect collaboration too. But it was much better. LOTF weren't trying to one-up each other, some were actively undermining the other (Denning and Traviss with Mandalorians for example).
4)

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Jacen/Jaina "mostly" worked, though Jaina should have tried to appeal to him more. The war and politics didn't... people here even thought the Confederation won, before realizing it was completely unresolved. Tahiri/Ben was outright creepy. The bloodlust of Han/Leia/Jaina and darkness of Luke was so off.

 

I think it the middle-to-late volumes of the series get VERY repetitive. It's basically:

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1. Jacen is poised to strike definitively against his enemies and end the war.
2. Jacen acts like an insane person and ostracizes the allies he is relying on.
3. His allies turn against him and he clutches defeat from the hands of victory.
Next book starts with him back at 1. with some new ally and some new plan.

The problem with the plot is that it meanders and loses focus. Remember all the politics that were driving the whole conflict? Forgotten by the end.

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Do the issues get resolved? Is everyone back together? Did they all realize the whole conflict was silly in the first place? Or is the fighting just on the backburner? The series doesn't really seem to care anymore.

My biggest problem with the collaboration between the authors is that they split the plot three ways but did a rotating format. Characters and plotlines don't flow naturally in and out of the story. Side plots are weirdly cyclical, and it can be very jarring. I think I would have had much less issue with the collaboration if they had written a trilogy of trilogies (closer to NJO format).

What tight focus on [what you said]? Doesn't that plotline basically pop up at the end of the seventh book (or so)? That isn't naturally developed throughout the series. It is tacked on. It plays back into the feeling that the series doesn't know what it wants to be about. Near the end - let's make it about this other thing. I think from the start this series should have been

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Jaina's story.

 

yes it does feel

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That half way through it became Jaina's story rather than Bens. It is jarring since she is not important to the story at all before Revelation when this idea she needs to kill Jacen comes in.

She spends most of her time in a dumb love triangle and hunting a useless character.

 

I'm not sure I ever feel that it becomes

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Jaina's story.

Yes, most of the way through the series

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she becomes relevant to the main plot for the first time. However, she never really gets the kind of development/focus that other characters like Jacen, Luke, and Ben do. Obviously she is a major focus in the last book, but its not a full character arc, it is the unearned end of a character arc. Even in the last book alone, I wouldn't call Jaina clearly THE main character, the way you could say that about Jacen in the NJO.

 

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Even at the end she still seems more evil than Jacen "Then hurry up and die" spring to mind

It should have been Ben who defeated Jacen.

Ironically Jaina is more a main character in FotJ when she does nothing at the end.

 

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Ben doesn’t work as a protagonist for the simple reason that he is too young. Even by SW standards. He’s fourteen coming on fifteen. That is just not old enough or experienced enough to defeat Jacen.

A different LOTF could be set further in the future with an older Ben or have Jacen win and there be some sort of time gap(which honestly copies the PT even more). Jaina has some weight behind it with the SOTJ prophecy and the Vong concept of twins(what greatness did Jaina get?).

So LOTF has the issue of protagonists. Luke is too overpowered, Leia isn’t really central in the series though having her fight her son could have been interesting. That leaves Jaina and really who?

Zekk? Tenel Ka? Not sky solo protagonists.

 

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Then is the simple solution to have Jacen be redeemed and Ben be the one to do it?

 

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He "redeemed" Tahiri. But your idea definitely works better.

 

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Thank you

I will have more to say on that, but it felt like set up for a romance honestly.

AND THAT is horrible.

 

Kind of anticlimatic that the dream sequence of Leia confronting Jacen and dragging them both out into space (in Fury?) never really paid off, in some ways - dark and sad as it would have been.

 

Maybe she was actually dreaming about TLJ.

 

Well, half right, then...

 

If the authors had not been limited to not harming the Big Three-jacen killing his mother could have been a much better way to cement his darkness, and if written well could have been extremely moving and shocking.

 

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It does seem odd Jacen big dark side kill is ....His Aunt....oooooooh, deep connection their ;p

 

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I mean-if you believe Maracen is a thing there’s a connection.

 

Jacen did the galaxy a service... when he found out Mara had flirted with his brother and that Ben was actually Anakins son, Jacen took action to prevent any revelation of this affair having Luke fall to the Dark Side as his visions had shown him was the worst case scenario!!! He killed her to keep Luke in the light!

But the irony of Sith Tahiri hitting on Anakin's son Ben then is not lost on me! After all, it is the closest thing she got left of Anakin aside from Jacen!

* headcanoned *

At least from that angle it all begins to make sense!

 

Or it could have been that Jacen realized he was Ben’s father and killing Mara was to prevent her realizing this and demanding he come clean to Ben about it.

Which is even more of a Jerry Springer plot but hey.