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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Heir to the Empire 30 years Anniversary does it still hold up ?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by fett 4, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    This is getting a bit off topic from HTTE but I agree

    I also think this could mean the potential wiping out of the Kaminon's as well. Which I would like since then Palpatine killed anyone who could have helped him with his own cloning projects, having to rely on second to third rate cloners.

    Which seems very Empire in general, always killing off what could have been their best assets.
     
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  2. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Which makes for a neat real life nod, as totalitarian regimes are rarely the model of efficiency they sell themselves as.
     
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  3. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Hindsight being 20/20...I do take issues with Thrawn's Priorities. Why not go after the Warlords first and bring them the heel. Send Noghri with a message from Thrawn 'get in line or get dead'....and if they refused send the Noghri to their second in command with the warlord's severed head with the same message.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  4. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well according to THE ESSENTIAL GUIDE TO WARFARE (which is no longer Canon) Thrawn appearance in itself essentially brought many of the Warlords to heel. They were afraid of military coups and thus declared support and even gave Thrawn resources and ships.

    Thrawn for his part was smart enough to know it would be a waist of time to have more civil war in the Imperial Ranks and thus left them to govern their own territories,

    Now what a post Thrawn campaign if he won would have looked like is hard to say especially with Palpatine on Byss doing his thing.
     
  5. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    That is the whole hindsight thing...they had to create a story where Thrawn didn't bring them in line...because HtTE came out first....and all these warlords were created after. And even if Thrawn won against the NR...it did not mean the warlords would fall in line after...he would still have to have dealt with them to re-unify the Empire. Civil war would have been inevitable.

    As far as Palps on Byss...if Thrawn had won and re-unified the Empire then he may have shown up sooner.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  6. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well IDK, maybe Thrawn didn't think it was important at the time [face_dunno]

    Wouldn't seem practical
     
  7. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Likely in universe answer is Thrawn lacked the material assets to take on the warlords.

    DE Palp's line to them wasn't that he had a bigger fleet but rather the Galaxy Gun. It was: Join me or be annihilated.
     
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  8. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Agree on both counts.
     
  9. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Didn't Palpatine reunite the Empire into a council without revealing himself? I thought it was in a DE source book.
     
  10. Chris0013

    Chris0013 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    He did not need to go to war with them. He had the Noghri. He could have done what Daala did and bring them together and give them a chance and if they did not fall in line just kill them.
     
  11. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Thrawn is an alien and the warlords are imperials, so they might not even talk to him.
     
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  12. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I have re 'read' (audio book) of the whole trilogy.


    The opening battle of Heir gets worse the more attention you pay. At first I though thrawn made up the tactic to exploit the 'alien mind' of the enemy. NOPE turns out he uses a "simple" tactic. Something that this species, apparently, never encountered before and it never occured to them to train against this. Rather they act "the only way their alien minds can". Which not going to lie, I find racist and dumb. I know it is a product of the times (kinda, Star Trek Those Old Scientists, I mean The Original Series, used "Planet of the Hats", but it seemed like they used them to teach a lesson about humanity, rather than just say "dumb alien, it's can't think properly), post Andor it gets worse as it is the scene where the Imperial on Aldhani talks about the locals "not being able to keep two thoughts in their head", but played to show how 'smart' the Empire is, rather than used to make them look bad.


    Moving on Han is trying to get smugglers to work with the NR, but they don't trust them because Ackbar and the Mon in general don't like smugglers. Ok, I guess, but didn't eh Rebels use smugglers before they took Coruscant? Cause they would move product to people the government didn't like (we see that on a planet level later in this book), seems weird to me.


    The book is very technical, which for me doesn't work. Star Wars isn't really science-fiction (fiction about science affect things), it's sci-fantasy (a fantasy set in space).

    The cloaking device is really weird how it is used here. It seems to be a 'wall' nothing gets in or out, which I guess can work if uses a radar like system (one that depends on returns) to find stuff, but seems like it could be defeated by a laser type system (one that maps actively rather than using returns), though maybe these weren't really a thing in the 90s. I am also not sure how it works with the cargo hold, though to the books credit Wedge does realise something is odd, seems like it would read a void in the ship rather than empty.


    Also on positives Luke gets to be really smart in the battle on Myrkr, tricking them into going under the arch was great "we'll never get them out of there" "I know", it's like a (good) anime trick. Loved it, also Luke getting away from the tractor trap is good, THOUGH I don't like how Thrawn knows Luke will cook his x-wing, not sure how he knows that or why the art military guy would know about the specific specs of an x-wing (as good or better than an actual pilot).


    Not a fan of how Leia is used, in all these books. In the first she does no diplo and is pretty much just a target, while she does do some stuff to fight back and save herself, she is more passive than I think she would be (still better than later books though) and what saves her isn't anything she has any control over (her bio-dad). The scent thing, eh would need to be changed now, but Zahn didn't know that (even then it seems weird and more like some genetic hormonal thing since 'scent' is due to personal closeness, not DNA).


    Rest of the book, eh it's ok lot of focus on new characters who are mostly miss for me, really got tired of Mara, funnily enough if this was a new story today I think 'fans' would hate Mara since she treats Luke really bad. Final battle with using the miners is good, still think Thrawn would have been better served to hit the shipyards as they left, since he is leaving these ships in the best place for them to be repaired.


    It is interesting looking at the books, how the NR acts and doesn't act. In Heir Ackbar is able demilitarise some warships pretty much over night, to help with relief from Empire raids, which seems like a really dumb idea on it's own, since in our world military transports and AirCraft carrier (and like ships) are able to do relief work without needing to be changed at all, so at a time when the Empire is still clearly a threat and the NR has a need for warships (not as bad as later but I don't think they have a lot laying around), why take these ships out of the fight in a drastic way? (Ackbar should be investigated for this alone).


    So Ackbar can take this major decisive action (that damages the NR), but in Dark Force, when the Empire starts paying "market rate plus 20%" the NR, does nothing. They know the Empire is buying ships (lando mentions it when he and Han talk about the Katana fleet), but no mention of the NR getting into a bidding war with them for ships. Does the author want me to think that a failing fascist state that controls the 1/4 of the galaxy has better finance than the NR? Maybe cause I work with tax (and have watched Perun's videos on 'destroys armies' playlist here for those interested), but it rings really hollow to me. It seems that the NR SHOULD be trying to bid as well, but they take no action, I don't even recall them even talking about it. And the NR should be easily able to outbid the Empire.


    So tldr of that paragraph; The NR can act quickly when it leads to the Thrawns advantage, but doesn't react at all when it would beat the Empire.


    Dark Force has more issues. Biggest for me, again, is the race stuff or in a word, Borsk. Garm, Han and Lando all put Borsks actions down to his race. This is the reason he acts like he does, it's his race/culture which are treated as one and the same. His years in the Rebellion and working with other races? No affect on him he is set. Thrawn also studies Corellian art, despite Garm having not lived there for 20+ years. But is gets weirder, Thrawn DOES look at individuals, Luke and Talon are mentioned during the escape from the ISD.

    Borsk is also not good here, I get he is meant to be an enemy, but how this is resolved is something I don't like. Han says Borsk is going after Ackbar because of Borsk is a Bothan, Borsk says "maybe I believe Ackbar is a traitor", but of course he does not. Rather than being a good faith actor he is only out for himself. And the resolution is tricking him (Talon tricks him, not Leia, she just gets a gun pointed at her), they don't convice him or bring him round to their side, no they expose this "politician" as not caring about the military people and then they mutiny, thus the only politician is defeated by the military, surely nothing wrong with that? I also found it ‘funny’ when Thrawn says while Bosrk is smart it is ‘not in any way that threatens them’. Sure is good that a politician has no idea about war, not like war is politics by other means or anything, what idiot would think that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_von_Clausewitz


    Leia's time I have spoken of, the Noghri only listen to her because of her dad (I also think Leia should REALLY not like being called Lady Vader and it also feels off to me to have her be "both sides" are at fault for the Civil War, these are her thoughts not words spoken to others) and the proof happens because of stuff out of her hands.


    The hunt for the ships is ok, but once they find them, they clearly are not working. Yet the Empire can get them working inside of a month? I guess so, no issues with modernising them on top of fixing them. I know people who fix up old cars, it takes a lot of work and getting parts can be hard, yet not for the Empire because? Clones maybe?


    I also like Thrawn going off in the wrong direction re:noghri, that is good.


    Talon and Mara are also odd, here, they acted against the Empire, helped kill it's people and saved heroes of the NR, yet now they want to walk that back. Mara is betrayed and makes no choice is leaving the Empire, it stabs her in the back (like the Noghri). Talon also gets captured and after his escape he helps the NR, and Mara even attacks the Empire in a deliberate fashion.

    Yet in the next book, they are back to "oh lets be neutral". Talon has a bounty on his head, he was taken prisoner by them and actively helped the NR in and at the battle. He should be keen to get into the NR, while he does get there, that he isn't there at the start is annoying and seems just to fill space.

    Mara is still "I don't want to help the NR" and it's annoying too. Her helping stop the kidnapping is nice, don't like that she saved everyone rather than Lando and Chewie. But it's not a major thing. HOWEVER, I do not like Leia thinking herself in circles during the attack, while I like she snaps herself out of it, I don't see Moma Bear Leia, despairing, to me she would likely start hacking stormies.


    Also the smugglers attacking the Empire should have more impacts on the Empire. They blow up an ISD and Thrawn does nothing. Yet this doesn't affect the Empire, no captains want to go out and do something themselves. All we get is Pelly not liking it, but he goes along. The only division we see in the Empire is C'baoth.

    And of course the NR can't pay the Smugglers a lot of money, it would take too long. Though the money itself is no issue, which feeds back into my issues with no bidding war discussion in the NR.

    Also a General issue, we never see the senate, nor is it mentioned, closest thing we get is a mention of a “grand assembly, but it is a throw away line. Borsk's support is all military people.

    Back to the smugglers, the same people don’t trust the NR due to Ackbar not liking smugglers are happy to work for the Empire. The same Empire that hunted them for most of their careers. Feels odd to me, like the things that are slowing the NR don’t apply to Thrawn, just cause.

    The hunt for delta source is good. Shame it doesn’t matter.

    They mention 3 of the things they want, where is the third?

    Also the blockade would have a major impact, deaths even, on the population, but these are never mentioned, instead Borsk just says “we have supplies for months”. So that’s good and shows either a massive organisational effort on behalf of the NR or they don’t care about poor people (or the author just didn’t want to deal with issue).

    The stuff with the smugglers is fine, nice to see Thrawns trick failed.

    As well deception. I do like Luke escaping the trap, I don’t like that it worked perfectly to Thrawns plan until then, given that later he isn’t fooled by the NR doing it’s own deception. How does Thrawn know? Just cause. Oh right he looked at some art people made or brought like 20 years ago.


    This really annoys me. This wastes the heroes hard fought, smart victory. They did that smart work and what did it matte? Not a wit. They might as well have sat around eating chips. We saw Thrawn run off in the wrong direction in the last book (and it was a lot of fun), but here? Dead on 100%, just his gut. Also why did you (the author) waste my time with this subplot? It has no impact. It’s like the resolution of the shield trick. It’s nice that they get it sorted, but it has no effect.

    This shows, in my view, the hand of the author very clearly, and frankly I am not impressed.

    The journey on Wayland, is very boring. The Noghri are fine, but the whole thing is too long.

    Mara take no active steps to end the Emperors control over her, she just lucks into it and at the end she obeys the Emperor, again I do not get the sense she would not still be following him if he called her.

    Thrawn sure is lucky C’baoth never threw any rocks at him.

    Mara kills all the bad guys, though Luke did help distract him, cause Talon Kardd was there.

    Also now I know why The Noghri killed Thrawn when he did, because he was about to be exposed. Kinda underwhelming.

    I also hate Luke giving his lightsaber to Mara, it’s so wrong. It’s his family blade and she is not his friend, she is still horrid to him.

    And that is the entire wrap up. Nothing about the state of the galaxy, we got hints before that the Empire would fall apart again, as Thrawn says they need to keep forces to keep the new captured sectors in line, which also shows how bad a commander he is, if your plan to solve the problem of how to rule the galaxy with naked military force you are doomed, but we don’t see anything. Just Mara and Luke and that is it.

    Tldr: at best its ok, at worst it's bad, even if we buy into the race profiling I still think the resolutions after book 1 are weak. It doesn't hold up when looking at it now, in the current cultural views.
    It has some original ideas and does expand the universe, but does not deserve the praise it gets.
     
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  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    She thinks both sides are at fault for the damage to Honoghr (until she finds out otherwise).
     
  14. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    I've re-read The Thrawn Trilogy two times since my initial read in 1994 (in 1997 and 2015) and I felt like it's still deserving of all of the praise. I'll be revisiting it again later this year.

    It might just be one of those, "You had to be there," things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2024
  15. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    A distinction without a difference. The damage happened (in her mind) because of the war, a war that both sides were fighting. She should be blaming the Empire for making the war happen.

    I have seen an argument that I some what agree with, that in effect is that the reason it's popular is because 1, it happened early and 2, the people who dominate the fandom like it and will push it as being good.

    Basically if you don't have nostalgia for it (like I don't) you won't find it good. Maybe a little harsh, but I don't have the right mind set to get over the first major hurdle of thrawns "smarts" just being racial profiling.

    I like Mass Effect which also makes this look worse by comparison.
     
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  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Thrawn doesn't just generalise about aliens from their art as a whole - he also studies the art made by individuals (Ackbar) or chosen by individuals (Bel Iblis).

    Outbound Flight also demonstrated just how insightful such a reading is:

    He looked over his shoulder at Thrawn. "How about this one?"
    For a moment Thrawn studied the sculpt in silence, his eyes occasionally flicking around the rest of the room as if seeking inspiration. "The artist is humanoid," he said at last. "Proportioned differently from humans and Chiss, with either a wider torso or longer arms." His eyes narrowed slightly. "There's something of a distance to his emotional state, too. I would say his people are both drawn to and yet repulsed by or fearful of the physical objects they live
    among."
    Qennto's breath went out in a huff. "I don't believe this," he said. "That's the Pashvi, all right."
    "I don't think I know them," Maris said.
    "They've got a system on the edge of Wild Space," Qennto said. "I've been there a few times—there's a small but stable market for their art, mostly in the Corporate Sector."
    "What did Commander Thrawn mean about fear of physical objects?" Car'das asked.
    "Their world is sprinkled with thousands of rock pillars," Qennto said. "Most of the best food plants grow on the tops. Unfortunately, so does a nasty predator avian. It makes for—well, for pretty much just what he said."
    "And you got all that from a single sculpt?" Maris asked, gazing at Thrawn with a strange look on her face.
    "Actually, no," the Chiss assured her. "There are—let me see—twelve more examples of their artwork." He pointed to two other areas of the room.
    "You sure?" Car'das asked, frowning at the indicated sculpts and flats. "They don't look at all alike to me."
    "They were created by different artists," Thrawn said. "But the species is the same."
    "This is really weird," Qennto said, shaking his head. "Like some crazy Jedi thing."
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2024
  17. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    I am not discussing Outbound flight or any later works, lets just focus on TTT.

    Yes he did, MUCH later, that is in TLC. In the opening to HTTE, he has looked at a species art and determined that this is "the only actions their alien mind allows them to take", it was not the commanders art or experience it was all his RACE, that was it, that was the sole deciding factor in his entire decision making process.
     
  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    And before that, with Karrde in the opening of DFR.


    "some alien species come with certain psychological blind spots (possibly due to their cultural history)"


    doesn't seem like such a huge jump to me, in the context of a sci-fi universe.

    Probably the same aliens would see humans as having their own blind spots. For example, an aquatic species that has always waged war in 3D might note humans as having waged 2D warfare 'til very recently, and seen them as weaker at 3D warfare.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2024
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  19. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    My point was that it was not his introduction.

    No it is a huge jump. It is a racist assumption, people are more than their race, heck even ANIMALS are more than that, experience shapes people not just their race. And even if that is half true looking at art to gain an understanding of military matters is dumb outside of single combat when you look at someone own art.

    Also you undermine your own point with your example, sine it is human EXPERIENCE that would be the factor not race/culture (which Zahn thinks are the same), and even then this species has been in space for a while (at least that is the impression I got), it's being suprised by people adapting to the iphone (and the like). It just doesn't track at all with me and destroys any threat Thrawn could have to the heroes, without Zahn's hand forcing it.
     
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The point is that the average human lives on the ground and will spend 99% of their waking time on a 2D surface - and that this is how they evolved - and that this matters to human psychology as compared to, say, Quarren or Mon Cal psychology. Technology, however recent, doesn't change the basic fact of both human experience and human history.
     
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  21. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    But humans can be trained to adapt to 3d space, pilots for example. It is not predetermined by race. And yes tech DOES change experience, because before the tech there can be no experience with it.
     
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    True - but the idea that "Mon Cal are on average intrinsically better at 3D warfare than humans because they live in a 3D world" for example, IMO shouldn't be controversial.

    And if some species might be expected to be better at it - what's wrong with some species being worse at it?

    Or, in the case of Elom "unable to handle a sufficiently unstructured manoeuvre" the way humans can?
     
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  23. PowBasilisk

    PowBasilisk Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2024
    Luke has a heart of gold, and is able to sense the good in her. He knows she’s the way she is because of her upbringing, and he knows she can change. As cheesy as it sounds, his kindness and selflessness will bring about that change.
     
  24. AusStig

    AusStig Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 3, 2010
    That's fine. But I don't get why he has to give his FAMILY LIGHTSABER to this person who still treats him badly, just get her some hot chocolate.
     
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  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 26X Wacky Wednesday/23x Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    She snarks at him a couple of times - I don't know that this is "treating him badly"


    "Quite a view, isn't it?" Luke commented, coming up beside her and gazing out over the city. "Must bring back memories for you."
    She threw him a patient look. "Translation: How am I feeling about the homecoming this time. You know, Skywalker—just between us—you're pretty pathetic when you try to be devious. If I were you, I'd give it up and just stick with that straight-out farm boy honesty."
    ...
    "The whole thing's ridiculous," she said. "You know it, and I know it."
    "Karrde doesn't think so."
    "Karrde's even a worse idealist than you are sometimes," she shot back. "In the first place, he's never going to be able to hold this smuggler coalition of his together."



    And Luke gives at least one nice riposte:


    "Sorry," he said. "Too much time spent around Han, I guess."
    "And Karrde and me, I suppose?"
    "You want a straight-out farm boy honest answer to that?"
    She threw him a crooked smile. "I'm sorry I even brought it up."