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Saga Here is my unorthodox Star Wars opinion: change my mind!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Feelicks, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    I think Luke being a “whiner” is more a backwards and forwards extrapolation from Anakin and Kylo rather than an observation of his actual attitude and circumstances in the OT:

    - His intro in ANH has him whining as a teenager only at the beginning, and as much as *Han does* when they get to the Deathstar, but nobody calls Han out on that, and Luke’s otherwise the least likely to complaint member of the OT3 after his adoptive parents die.

    - His “whining” around Yoda is after hours of Yoda testing/trolling him while he’s trying to complete a mission… while Han and Leia are constantly complaining about each other. And in general, ESB is a good example of using complaints and frustration well for all characters.

    - And he just doesn’t whine in ROTJ at all, and if anything has firmly moved into the most sage-like of the OT3.

    TLJ Luke is a whiny man-child, but that’s more because that film regards whiny (white) man-children as the epitome of cinema, and TLJ is more just weirdly disassociated from its own stakes, accidentally creating whining where something more reasonable like snark (Luke) was intended, or not realizing where a sociopath flatly justifying murdering his classmates because his teacher scared him would come off like whining (Kylo.)
     
  2. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I read that as you were saying KB for a moment...I was like "what version of Skeleton Crew did you watch? She was on the of the best characters" :p
     
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  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I personally think that it's code for Luke doesn't act like a Sigma, thus he sucks. Same with Anakin and Ben.
     
  4. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    but to be fair, Kylo did literally throw temper tantrums

    [​IMG]

    Was the intent to make Kylo look threatening and dangerous? Well it didn't, it made him comically look like a petulant man child.


    I kinda agree about Luke though, and I guess if I was being truly fair, Anakin too...to some extent.
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I think that they were trying to be funny and blew it. Vader and Sidious were intimidating with only a bare minimum of effort to be direct. They missed that with Kylo.
     
  6. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    Can you imagine Kylo looking for power converters and whinging about the harvest? He would be even more soon....lol but pausing laser bolts in mid air is way cool
     
  7. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    That actually does remind me of an opinion I have about Kylo’s from TFA that probably is “unorthodox” since I’m sort of splitting hairs between his more enthusiastic fans and his (…even more than me :p) bitter haters.

    Kylo’s ideal spot as a villain was as the ****-heel, Chris Jericho-type of formidable but gratingly whiny and disrespectable villain - he was perfect as that petty, frustrating mix of too dangerous to not treat seriously but too immature and entitled to give any credit to.

    He needed neither sympathy nor respect - but that’s probably the problem, since it’s reeeeaaaaalllly easy to imbalance that one way or another. He makes a horrible pseudo-protagonist.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2025
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  8. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 15, 2012
    It's also maybe fair to say the Skywalker bloodline is a tempestuous at best family... Psychotic at worst... maybe Luke is the balance between his past In Anakin and his future blood, kylo..hotheads the lot of them
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin just complained as anyone who feels entitled would. His true anger surfaces when the fear of loss gives way to anger and hate. As Vader, he just intimidates you until he exerts his authority. Luke was more of a teenager in ANH, which is typical behavior of someone who lacks focus and discipline. In TESB, it's impatience. With Ben, it's just petulant anger towards his parents.
     
  10. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I would add unjustified to that.
     
  11. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    And “in his 30s”, which I’d argue modifies things considerably for a comparison, since both Luke’s extremely short-lived whining and Anakin’s whining take place when they’re teenagers/early-twenty-somethings.

    Again, though, I actually like Kylo being a completely unjustified and unstable sociopathic man-child - because it makes it more fun to cheer against him, and to even find mildly respectable (not in a good way, but in a formidable adversary) traits among the rest of the First Order by contrast.

    It’s the idea that somehow him hating his loving, seemingly always available when he was younger parents is somehow relatable that come off like someone didn’t get why Anakin’s murder rampage against the Tuskens were explainable as horrible reactions to genuine suffering.

    Not even Freud would go quite so wholeheartedly into that level of daddy issues with Han…
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The problem is that his issues are petty compared with his uncle and grandfather, which just makes him into a weak character. At least Jacen had a reason to turn in the old EU.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I wanted to slap Anakin through the screen during a few scenes in AOTC, namely the ones in Padme’s apartment when he was whining about how Obi-Wan didn’t “understand” that Anakin was better at everything than he was.

    I wanted to slap Kylo through the screen pretty much the entire time he was on screen. Oh, you’re ‘being torn apart’? STFU. Go visit a poor section of Coruscant and take them some food or something. You’ll realize you don’t have real problems. Han ‘would have disappointed you’? Sorry he didn’t let you fly the Falcon every time you asked.
     
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  14. PCCViking

    PCCViking 2 Truths & a Lie Host./16x WW Win/14xHMan Win. star 10 VIP - Game Winner VIP - Game Host

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    Jun 12, 2014
    Maybe not so unpopular opinion, but Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus made the better Solo turned to the Dark Side with more plausible development and ending than Ben/Kylo.
     
  15. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    They should stop announcing so many SW projects and just shadow drop them like the looming Oblivion remake/remaster
     
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  16. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 14, 2010
    I think you’re right, but there’s a bit more nuance to that opinion for people who know of both characters. And it’s an “unorthodox” opinion rather than an unpopular one

    I think there’s plenty of people who would argue Jacen > Ben, and Caedus > Kylo… but some of them would argue neither was a good idea as a villain, or that both worked out “enough.”

    Where I might make things goofy in my own is that I think the biggest advantaged Jacen/Caedus had was that he had multiple relatives in his generation and afterwards to prevent him from being a dead end - that he automatically worked better as a concept because his final enemy and sister Jaina, cousin through Luke in Ben Skywalker, and his own daughter were all still alive to continue the family story.

    …Which probably isn’t unorthodox for fans, but is probably at least mildly unorthodox for LFL, since it involves “Luke having a kid is a good idea” and “the female hero best suited to fight an evil Solo is a member of his own family.”
     
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  17. Darth Vectivus

    Darth Vectivus Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 9, 2023
    I think Star Wars as a franchise should have ended a long time ago from what i have seen the new generations dont care much about the franchise the people who watch Star Wars content the most are nostalgic fans Star Wars should have ended in 2005 or 2012 or 2019

    I like the adult and mature tone of Andor but i dont know if that is the direction the franchise should take especially for the mainstream public who are used to a lighter tone in Star Wars Andor is the best product Disney has ever made they should fix the Sequels by giving the director of Andor a show
    .
     
  18. Tia

    Tia Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Oct 11, 2022
    I know you are probably joking, but I don't understand why movie studios don't just do this. :p

    Just a drop a trailer on everyone a couple of months before release. Let things be fresh in peoples minds and enjoy the buzz.
     
  19. Sarge

    Sarge 6x Wacky Wednesday winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Oct 4, 1998
    I don't like the Mon Mothma dancing at the wedding music.
     
  20. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 29, 2005
    To be fair Jacen had way more time to be developed as a character.

    Sent from my SM-A716V using Tapatalk
     
  21. rktho

    rktho Jedi Master star 3

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    Apr 29, 2020
    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I saw a clip...without context, and thought it was a great tribute to David Lynch....

    I now understand it within context...and thought....what a great tribute to David Lynch.
     
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  23. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I think it’s great I to would
    get drunk if I knew one of my greatest allies was about to murder my childhood friend
     
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  24. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 27, 2016
    But they do need it, it's their cover story. It's what Anakin tells Padmé and it's what Palpatine tells the Senate. The Jedi will take control of the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition as it is, so this is their way to spin things to suit themselves.

    Whatever late editing took place, either way, that moment is still needed to explain their justification.

    No, Anakin wouldn't think it was BS. Again, what Sith Lord wouldn't want immortality?
    Anakin can rest assured that if it is indeed attainable, teaming up with Palpatine is as safe a bet as any because he wants it too. Palpatine wouldn't have gone through all that trouble if he didn't think he & Anakin had a shot at attaining it.
    Anakin may not have proof of it's attainability but he does have unprecedented potential in the Force, and Palpatine has gotten him to think finding this power is his destiny.

    And no, Anakin isn't going to have an erratic outburst at this moment. He sees why Palpatine did it this way, it was dirty but necessary to break down his defenses. And he's hyper-focused on finding this power to save Padmé so he's going to do whatever it takes, including maintaining his composure, to see this through to the end.


    And no, Anakin can't ask to find the power now, then kill the Jedi afterwards, for at least three very big reasons.

    1. The Jedi will be coming to get them any minute.
    2. Palpatine needs this leverage to get him to help him kill the Jedi.
    3. Last but not least, when Palpatine says Anakin needs to kill the Jedi to grow in dark side power, he believes it because he knows first hand from killing the Tuskens that committing dark acts gives you a power boost. He believes with good enough evidence that he won't be powerful enough to attain the spell unless he does this.

    And as far as talking with Padme's doctors, I think it's clear Anakin is afraid Padme's death is something science & medicine can't prevent, hence his obsession with finding a magic power to stop it.

    And if he wants to save Padmé (from his perceived threat), it's not that he's giving Palpatine all the cards, Palpatine has them all to begin with. Anakin has to play along. As Palpatine is the only one who knows where to even begin looking for this power.

    It's not so much walking away from Palpatine that Anakin needed to do... moreso, first and foremost, it was mastering his fears, that would have been his way of avoiding this mess. Until he does that, his fears are controlling his actions, and he's at the mercy of them, and Palpatine who has the cards.


    And they didn't have Anakin spy on Palpatine despite him being a suspicious character, it's Because he was a suspicious character. And this being war they felt justified in it.

    How long have the Jedi sensed the dark side surrounding the Chancellor? Well, I'd say the moment Mace says so. Why then? Because it's minutes before everything goes down. He's just sent Anakin to tell Palpatine Grevious has been killed, thus ending the war, and now... It's end-game time.
    Lucas said it's like the Jedi were walking through a fog. And in a fog you can start to make things out as they get closer.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2025
  25. Darth Vectivus

    Darth Vectivus Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 9, 2023
    I can't take Star Wars Rebels seriously again after watching Andor it seems like a fairy tale compared to Andor even though they coexist in the same universe and give Tony Gilroy another show please it would be interesting to see a New Republic show with this director also make Darth Revan Canon in the New Star Wars Live Action Universe
     
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