Ol'val.

Enough with _all_ the personal attacks! We began this thread with reasoned discussion. We are capable of continuing it with reasoned discussion, yes? Make this the third call for restoration of rational discussion -- and after this post, I will step out of this thread for a bit, since I have no wish for my words or presence in this thread to be invoked again as a weapon -- by either side.

For starters, let us look at this definition of "sides".

On many occasions both the administrators and the members have agreed that there should be no "administrator" side and no "member" side -- and yet IronParrot, desiring simply to remain neutral and figure out for himself what is going on, has run headfirst into the very real existence of "sides". Why?

We have seen repeatedly that the appearance of administrator unity in all member-administrator discussions must be maintained at all costs, with any dissension among the administrators to be kept private (the "code of silence"). There is an intense pressure, among any administrative group, to "toe the line". This (along with the non-accountability issue) goes back to the earliest days of the JC administration's existence -- but became much more strongly defined when the Administrators' Forum was first password-protected (August 1999? which would make it just one month before Slackergate?). Prior to that time, there was a much easier relationship between the administration and the older members (DL, KK, and Legal (Froggy, I am 12 years old) all date from the very first days of the JC). Since that time, there has been an increasing amount of division: spawned in part by the increasing willingness of newer members not to accept administrative actions blindly, and in part by upper echelon determination to preserve the appearance of administrator unity at all costs.

This is precisely the brick wall into which IronParrot has inadvertently run -- simply by not accepting blindly the idea of a united front at all costs. He wished only to stay neutral publicly -- not understanding that public neutrality is not an option in the united front. (If you are not with "us", you must be with "them".) The "Paul" label was inevitable -- and, since it stems from many of the same causes -- true.

The appearance of administrator unity, in turn, creates the need to defend all actions taken by any administrator overtly, whatever the hidden dissension.

That public defense, in turn, nudges a shift of defender opinion in which actions publicly defended become actions on which private opinion gradually shifts -- until those actions, in the defender's mind, gradually become more and more acceptable. It is a very human thing, and a very slippery slope: and the only defense is to keep discussion open, so that others can ground you in that more general perspective from which that first act of defense -- or offense -- has shifted you away.

The only way to balance this shift of opinion is to constantly remain open to the opinions of others -- but this is precisely what a "code of silence" prevents.

The foundation of actions which are protested now were laid more than a year ago, in the "code of silence" and the front of administrator unity --but those posting in this thread now are no more immune to the shift of opinion which comes with defense or offense than the administrative structure being questioned.

One item has been resolved: let it go. Do not dig in and create walls where none exist. Be mindful of the future and past -- but keep your attention on the here and now, where it belongs.

Kida

 

I think this thread is over too.

And DL is right, we can't stop anyone from posting. It wouldn't be right, anyway.

 

Three days with no Internet access sure makes for a lot of reading and catching up on events.

I agree with those who say that, for the most part, this thread has achieved its purpose: to bring many things to light and to further explore, scrutinize and question them. It's been very successful in that regard.

I applaud those members who have conducted themselves in an intelligent and thoughtful manner. I'm impressed with nearly-consistent level-headedness and momentum. I'm dismayed by attempts to flame and purposefully throw discussions off-track, but I know that's just the style of certain immature members with a personal agenda.

Believe me when I say that this was never a personal attack from me. Before being involved in "Deleted Threads" in JC Community and hearing about the deletion of that thread and Epic's thread, I had very few dealings with Lord Chewy. I really had no opinion of her, either positive or negative. I'd heard nothing of the history that has since been outlined in this thread.

I approached this from an objective standpoint, and believe that my first post (and subsequent posts to a lesser degree) reflects that. There was no vendetta, only a perceived injustice, lack of judgement, and absence of regard for members' opinions.

That issue has, by and large, been resolved. Again, I thank all involved for keeping this discussion so civil and active over a long expanse of server space and time.

However, certain comments made over the past three days still get under my skin.

DL: "Oh well, I can't believe I just wasted an hour I could have been using to sleep to reply to such petty and vindictive accusastions..."

We're so sorry to have inconvenienced you with the "petty" and apparently insignificant posts that we have spent time thinking over and posting in a thoughtful and intelligent manner. Our apologies that we require some communication to clarify things.

This type of attitude needs to change. Administrators ARE accountable to us for certain actions. Communication is a required skill for the position.

MISSNINFAN: "I think the people that came here and posted rationally and logically are being cast into this catagory of evil-doers. What a load of crap..."

PADME BRA: "You said before that you were disappointed that this is still an issue. I know that you figured this would just go away and that the members would bend over once again. But this sort of thing can only happen so many times before they get tired of bending over..."

YTAP: "I think this just *may* mean that the JC is changing. Or at least some members are wanting it to change in SOME way..."

Princess HAL9000: "To call us sore and whiners is indicative of the fact that you have no idea what is going on..."

Well said. It's insulting to belittle the contributions we've all made to this thread. We don't wish to harm the JC, instead we want to see it become the best Forum it can be. There has been some movement in that direction taken in this thread. I hope we can continue to move forward without fear of reprisal and ill will.

DL: "...it's irrelevant, Kida. it's also none of your business since you are neither an admin now or an admin then..."

It's not irrelevant. If Administrators are temporarily "knighted", we should know about it. The cloak and dagger antics need to stop. There needs to be more clarity in behind-the-scenes actions. We're not asking for absolute disclosure, but definitely want cover-ups, fraud, and dishonesty to end.

IRON PARROT: "The members should be at the very least informed prior to [certain actions] in any case, if not consulted. Sometimes this IS necessary - not as much now that we have a far larger admin team. But no, there shouldn't be any coverups..."

Exactly. Just let us know. Again, let's try to improve communications across the board.

KYLE KATARN: "Just what do you all want to come about from this thread, do you want this to become a campaign for you to be an admin like some of you already have tried to do here..."

The point of the thre

 

Mother of God, that was quite a post, congratulations SDA!!
I'm bowing out as well.

 

Allow me to apologise now for posting here. I just wish to say this:

1. Can there be a set of rules for Admins for all to read. This won't stop mistakes, but it may help in the long run, for some cases.
Others will have to be judged on their own merits or lack of.

2. Delete this thread? It has no real use now, better to lose it than allow it to drag on pointlessly.

Again, my apologies.

 

With all due respect, Pozzi, I don't think it should be deleted. There are many things in here that should remain for people to see, if not comment on.

Is there any way to archive this? If not, I think a solution should be found short of deleting it.

Some issues in this thread are ongoing. Some questions remain to be answered.

 

Darth Eric~~

Adolescents as bright is a revelation to you? Paradox's 16, my perception of him a year ago was definitely of a middle-age man married, kids, job, the whole nine yards. Hell -- many moderators for the JC are teenagers. I never could tell. Many more teenagers debate and rationalize like adults on this board. I speculate it isn't *too* problematical.

 

valiwok (sp?) -- I'm confused as to what you actually think about me.....I understand you weren't saying I was an alias, it was more a comment directed towards Froggy (who wrote the ever-so-eloquent "You have no balls" post) and LC.

Also, I feel that, yes, there are some questions left unanswered and hopefully they will eventually BE answered.

However, seeing the overall trend of actions on both sides, both the admins and the users, I don't think any of the questions will be answered. Most likely what will happen is that things will continue to deteriorate on this thread. People will continue to beat this issue unmerciful, various admins will continue to acknowledge that there is a problem overall, etc etc.

I applaud LC with her decision to step down....hopefully it will stay that way until things finally calm down around here.

That having been said, I will continue to check this thread, but for the most will leave it be. The main thing I was concerned with has been "solved." The other issues I've seen raised ,and sometimes agree with, will be a long time in being solved.

Hopefully this thread and the many points brought up, both valid and invalid, will help everyone to see/recognize the problem(s) with this board. I also hope that this will cause the powers that be to make the necessary changes to make this board a better place to be.


Hats of to Vertical, Mr. K, and especially IP. All of them have shown exceptional patience, morality, and intelligence in their posts. IP, in particular, should be thanked for his willingess to stand up for what he believes in. It's rare these days to see someone so willingly make a sacrifice to stand up for an ideal. Way to go, IP.


Later, all.....I hope all the problems can be solved amicably.


Out.

 

oh, also realu quick....just because I'm curious...who the hell am I supposed to be an alias for?

Could someone step up and actually make a claim here, or will I have to keep guessing?

Thanks,

Rory

 

People think you're an alias because no one has heard of you before and you've only been here for a short time, but you act like you have an informed opinion of what's being discussed.

 

I think I DO have an informed opinion on what's being discussed.....as does anyone who's read this forum from beginning to end.

True, I haven't been here that long, but that doesn't really matter if you take your time to read all the information involved, and then base your opinion/reasoning on that. Common sense/reasoning/deduction is all that's needed.

Time served shouldn't necessarily dictate who is worth listening to and who is not worth listening to.

Am I supposed to be an alias for anyone in particular, or what?

 

rorywk, I figure that's the way everyone thinks of you. But it really doesn't make any difference to me. What I was saying was that I *THOUGHT* you were an alias, but it really doesn't matter.

I just want to say that Paradox and IronParrot have acted very responsibly. DE's right, you wouldn't expect them to be 16 years old. I guess there are just some things that surprise you.

So, is this thread conclusively over???

 

It should be over. Just so long as both sides stp away peacefully. please put down your guns. Your knives aint needed. All that is needed is an agreement that we have said everything needed.

 

If there is one thing we learned here, and should carry away from this thread, it is probably this: No one minds criticism, as long as it isn't about themself.

Digest it and analyze it on your own, not here.

 

I don't visit this place anymore, but I got a heads up to take a look at this thread.

I have no reaction one way or another about the issues here. I just don't care.

But I am amazed at the time and energy and endless words that have been devoted to this. I salute you all.

Carry on.

 

That's the one thing we don't want. We're all trying to end this thread right now.

 

Many of the administrators seem to have difficulty dealing with people. Keep in mind that every administrator here has a degree in engineering, computer science, even logistics. The administrators on most every web site are just plain awful to deal with, including this one. THEY NEVER RETURN YOUR ********* messages. I'll probably get banned for posting *********, even though there's a thread with that word blatantly in the title. Man this sight sucks. Most do. I'll just say it:

IT HAS TO DO WITH ADMINISTRATORS THAT DON'T KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT DEALING WITH PEOPLE, THEY ONLY KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH A BUNCH OF JACK RABBIT NUMBERS.

This sight sucks along with most other sights because of the above mentioned statement. There's not much you can do. There's only 2 decent Star Wars sights to post at, and the administrators at both appear to be socially retarded.

 

"Keep in mind that every administrator here has a degree in engineering, computer science, even logistics"

What the hell are you talking about?? PreacherBoy can barely spell his own name.

 

Remember that spelling is a communication technique a.k.a. dealing with people........... Or maybe PreacherBoy is just some burned out hippie.

 

Um, ok.

 

RGH5, don't go around insulting the admins. howlrunner22 used to be a mod for a short time and he's really nice.

And Dark Lady Mara was nice enough to reply to a PM of mine.

I don't know if you're trying to get yourself banned or what, but I know that I'm not saying this because I'm siding with the admins, I'm saying it because it's true.

 

Valiowk.....Those kind of administrators are a needle in a hay stack.

 

All the same you shouldn't go round insulting them all as a whole.

Plus what crap was I talking about, howlie *STILL* is a mod. I'm trying to figure out *WHEN* in the world I saw his name not highlighted... I must be going bonkers.

 

Valiowk.....I did not "insult them as a whole." I said "many" and "most" of them, because it's true.

 

Well, this an intelligent turn...

Rogue, lemme just say that I'm glad YOU'RE not an admin...

"This thread is lame! Delete!"

"You're socially retarded! Ban!"

"Many if not most of you are wastes of space! you make this sight suck!"