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Honesty is the Best Policy: Constructive Criticism... (9/8) Looking for new thread manager!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Kettch_the_Jedi, May 12, 2004.

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  1. Kettch_the_Jedi

    Kettch_the_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    From posts on other threads, I have noticed that there are people beside myself who crave some constructive criticism. Not just replies like ?oh, that was a wonderful post,? but something that will help improve my writing. I understand most people?s hesitancy at posting constructive criticism due to a concern for other?s feelings, and that is good, the way it should be on these boards. However, for those of us who have thick skin and are more concerned with improving our work I have created this thread. If you would like your story (at least its beginning) read and criticized post a link here. If you would like to help an author who has posted his/her link here by giving them some constructive criticism then please PM them your comments.

    Rules
    1) PM your constructive criticism of other?s stories; do not leave them on this thread for others to see.
    2) Make sure you are giving constructive criticism. If people start being nasty then I will lock the thread.
    3) If someone sends you a rude/mean/non-constructive PM, let me know.
    4) Please try to read other?s stories and send them constructive criticism so everyone is getting input.
    5) Do not post a link to your story if you are going to be upset when someone tells you that your story needs improvements.
    6) Remember that true constructive criticism tells a writer what he/she is doing well as much as what needs improving so please list positive aspects as well as aspects that need improvement in your PMs.
    7) When you get some helpful criticism, please leave a post telling us that (so that we know that this thread is useful).

    *******************************************

    The current *Featured Story* is [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14605850]Scars and Beginnings[/link] by Indra *


    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Before_the_Saga/b10475/12861747/p1]Coruscant Girl[/link] by spiritgurl ***
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/16483603/?39]Under My Skin[/link] by DarthIshtar ***
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/14726589/?1]All Things Have Beginnings and Endings[/link] by Lt_Jaina_Solo *
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=7987467&replie]The Draigon's Lair[/link] by dianethx: Anakin Skywalker and Jocasta Nu argue over the use of the library *
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/13736038/p1]Three New Sailor Senshi[/link] by RK_Striker_JK_5: Sailor Moon/Young Jedi Knights crossover *
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14605850]Scars and Beginnings[/link] by Indra *


    Stories Open to Honest Suggestions for Improvement:


    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12559302]Attention Moron: Your Pal is Stealing Your Gal[/link] by NarundiJedi
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/14137878/p1]In the Shadow of the Chosen[/link] by solojones
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=15019620&start=15337100&search=A+Weapon+of+Hate]A Weapon of Hate[/link] by Zane-Marit
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=11168121&replies=44]Landslide[/link] by EmilieDarklighter
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12216989&replies=48]Thread of the Force[/link] by ZaraValinor

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/15170093/?90]Dark Interventions[/link] by DarkDroid
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/15775587/?50]Perilious Days[/link] by JDH3
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/11421643/?630]What I know[/link] by JDH3
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14349100&start=14583586]Evacuation[/link] by Bobbacca-- Small pockets of resistence struggle to survive in a galaxy taken over by the same alien race that drove the Yuuzhan Vong from their home galaxy. (Far future, Negative Race).
    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=14085839&replies=8]Victory Quest[/link] by sidious618

    [link=http://boards.theforce.ne
     
  2. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    Rules
    1) PM your constructive criticism of other?s stories; do not leave them on this thread for others to see.

    I really think you should let people decide whether they want to be sujected to this. For the record, I do not. I trust my beta (who is a multi degreed hard ass).

    2) Make sure you are giving constructive criticism. If people start being nasty then I will lock the thread.

    Better be quick. Seriously.

    3) If someone sends you a rude/mean/non-constructive PM, let me know.

    That's actually Kitt, Re and RRK domain, that's why they have the colours.


    4) Please try to read other?s stories and send them constructive criticism so everyone is getting input.

    See point one.

    5) Do not post a link to your story if you are going to be upset when someone tells you that your story needs improvements.

    I dislike the idea of anonomous crit. What one person would consider a crit, the other may decide is a slam. If you're going to put your opinion out there about a work, you should be ready to explain *WHY*.



     
  3. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    What one person would consider a crit, the other may decide is a slam.

    Exactly, especially since on the Internet, you can't hear tone of voice or read facial expressions. Sometimes posts here come out as more harsh than they were intended.

    Personally I'm not comfortable offering someone else, especially a stranger, constructive criticism unless I am asked directly (meaning not given a general go-ahead in a public thread). People are pretty sensitive about their writing--for a lot of people, their work is like their child--call that being "thin skinned" if you want, but I call it being normal. I'd be too afraid of hurting someone's feelings if I wasn't sent a direct, personal message with a "please look at this and tell me how to fix it".

    I can be a Nazi-beta myself but I won't do it unsolicited, and I don't know how many people would be comfortable doing that.
     
  4. Lt_Jaina_Solo

    Lt_Jaina_Solo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 2002
    Good points, Breezy and a_g (you slipped in there while I was typing 8-} ), but I think that this idea is a really good one. I know I'll probably end up posting a link here really soon.

     
  5. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    I like the idea, as I was one that had mentioned something like it in the other threads, I have PM'ed with Kit about starting a thread or two for this though, not sure when that's happening.

    I would tend to say the anonymous review thing is not the best idea but I liked the rest.

    Breezy and a_g: I think the point is that these authors posting are specifically asking for constructive criticism, therefore they are acknowleging that they might read something negative about their work from someone and can handle that. Not everyone has a multi degree hardass for a beta reader.

    That being said, I guess I'll be a brave soul and post here. :p Not that I plan on changing much if anything in this story/episode, but I wouldn't mind hearing "constructive" criticism on this piece as it's part of a larger story and might help me out with future Episodes. So if anyone wants to take a look, and PM me with any suggestions on how to improve my writing, or issues you had with the story, characters, etc, I would appreciate it.

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Before_the_Saga/b10475/12861747/p1]Coruscant Girl Episode I: KNIGHTSHIFT[/link]

    The story is also up on a website which may be easier to read but you'd have to PM me for the URL first. ;)

    thanks in advance. :)

    sg
     
  6. JadeDjo

    JadeDjo Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Those are good points Breezy and A_G, but if people don?t have the stomach for constructive criticism from anyone then they wont be posting here asking for it. As for myself. I WANT someone to tell me if my stories are bad or not. That way I can either improve them or ignore the criticism completely and go off in la la land thinking I'm the greatest. :D
     
  7. Kettch_the_Jedi

    Kettch_the_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    DarthBreezy,

    I really think you should let people decide whether they want to be sujected to this. For the record, I do not. I trust my beta (who is a multi degreed hard ass).

    That is the point of this thread. If you want criticism from others, you post a link to your story here. If you don't (as it seems in your case) this thread is not for you.

    That's actually Kitt, Re and RRK domain, that's why they have the colours.

    Yes, but if this thread is causing problems to others I want to lock it immediately; that's why I put that in.

    I dislike the idea of anonomous crit. What one person would consider a crit, the other may decide is a slam. If you're going to put your opinion out there about a work, you should be ready to explain *WHY*.

    Once again it looks like this thread is not for you.


    anakin_girl.

    I can be a Nazi-beta myself but I won't do it unsolicited, and I don't know how many people would be comfortable doing that.


    That's the point of the thread. For those who are comfortable with criticism coming from a stranger (whose opinions they are not required to listen to) then they post here. If they aren't, then they can ignore this thread.


    Lt_Jaina_Solo

    I addressed some of Breezy and Anakin's remarks above. And, I am glad you think this thread is a good idea. I have not been able to get a reliable beta and I think I would rather have numerous people give me their imput on my stories, anyway. I do not have to listen to everything they say, but some things can help me. I had one person (Wedge Antilles Cmdr) give me a suggestion once that has greatly improved my writing. That's what I want more of. :)
     
  8. Lt_Jaina_Solo

    Lt_Jaina_Solo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 2002
    Kettch- It's hard to find reliable betas. Every single one I've had had gone through a DRL problem (all 4), and I've only been using them for a couple of months (maximum half a year).


    Anyways, here's the link to my story: [link=http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/14726589/?1]All Things Have Beginnings and Endings[/link]. Please bear in mind that it's a sequel to Complications, which can be found [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=7237231&replies=212]here[/link].

    Thanks!

    ~LtJS

     
  9. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    Nice thread, Kettch. I've been thinking about starting a thread along these lines for a while now.


    One potential problem is the somewhat small percentage of people from the story forums who read the Resource forum. Another idea might be to suggest that anyone wanting critical replies to their fics place a line in their sig to let readers know.


    Given how ultra-sensitive writers can be, it's almost never a good idea to offer criticism unless invited to do so. Though I wouldn't have a problem telling a stranger "Hey, you misspelled 'Kenobi' in your story," no way would I even consider saying anything more critical such as "Your writing would flow better if you used more than a basic subject/verb, subject/verb, subject/verb sentence structure in every paragraph."


    For really valid constructive criticism, the person offering the critique either has to a) know the author well enough to know he/she won't take offense or b) read that the author desires critical analysis.


    Unsolicited constructive criticism, even well-intentioned, can be dangerous if not handled well. Nobody posts a story segment thinking: Well this sucks but I'm gonna post it anyway. Some people do write and post on the fly, but I'd wager that most authors here go over their stuff to give it polish and/or have a beta reader they trust who does that for them. Critiques, even gently worded, are a way of telling someone that their work needs improvement and if someone has spent hours picking apart his/her own story, the suggestion that a story might not be 'perfect' might be met with a bit of resentment.
     
  10. Kettch_the_Jedi

    Kettch_the_Jedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 22, 2002
    spiritgurl

    I'll give the post some more time and if no one likes the anonymous idea, then I'll delete it. :) (And I'll try to read your post tomorrow).

    JadeDjo

    Same with me. I really want to improve my writing and I've even told my readers to give me criticism but it never ends up happening.

    Lt_Jaina,

    Four? I understand. As a funny twist, I once volunteered to beta for a newbie. I spent all this time on his very long story and then he dropped off the boards. :) (And, I will also try to check out your story tomorrow).

    Herman,

    I just wanted a place where I could go and say, "Please read this and give me some constructive feedback." Yes, I like many of my posts, but I would prefer them to be better. I really won't be hurt if someone bluntly tells me "You need to not use passive tense so much", etc. I want that. And this thread is for those like me, who want strangers to help them. Where else am I going to get that? My readers won't really say anything negative about my stories, getting and keeping a reliable beta is harder than keeping warm on Hoth, and I personally do not have any friends interested in writing (or for that matter Star Wars--I had to threaten not to marry my husband just to get him to watch the original trilogy). BTW, I like your sig. :)


     
  11. Kit'

    Kit' Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    Well - I was going to start the one that spirit girl and I had been talking about today (my day 'between' assignments :p) - However I think Kettch has beaten me to it.

    This is a good idea, I'm a little worried about the anonymous idea, but if there is flaming via PM then I want to know about it. Particularly if people do it anonymously under the false idea they are going to get away with it.

    Other then that it is voluntary - if you don't want your story read then don't post a link here - simple.

    Kithera
     
  12. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    I just wanted a place where I could go and say, "Please read this and give me some constructive feedback."

    I understand that. I was just thinking that for those who are squeamish about giving critical feedback, it'd be nice if authors who have the stomach for blunt honesty could let readers know either by using their sigs or by announcing that fact within their stories.

    That way folks who don't happen across this thread might be encouraged to leave comments different from the usual "Wow! I like it." type of reply.


    Perhaps saying "Sock it to me!" in one's sig could be the clue that constructive criticism is expected and appreciated. ;)


    EDIT: I had to threaten not to marry my husband just to get him to watch the original trilogy


    That should have been a clue to ditch the bum. ;) :p
     
  13. Lt_Jaina_Solo

    Lt_Jaina_Solo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 2002
    Kettch- Four?
    Yep, four. Funny thing is, I'm now back with the original one for the time being (she's being kind enough to beta for me while I look for another one). 8-}

    I understand. As a funny twist, I once volunteered to beta for a newbie. I spent all this time on his very long story and then he dropped off the boards.
    Ouch. All that hard work, for nothing.

    (And, I will also try to check out your story tomorrow).
    Thanks! Just a warning, the beginning is rather mushy, since I wrote while I was in a very [face_love] mood [face_mischief] . It should even out later though. Oh, and it's Jaina/Jag (and a little Tenel Ka/Jacen), so if you have any objections to either of the couples, you might want to avoid it 8-}

    ~LtJS

     
  14. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    (And I'll try to read your post tomorrow).

    thanks :) And in the interest of helping this thread work, if there's something you'd like me to try to constructive crit in return Kettch, let me know. I can't guarantee I'll get it done quickly, but I'll do my best.

    sg
     
  15. NarundiJedi

    NarundiJedi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2001
    I wouldn't mind receiving some constructive criticism. Mostly because I'm never convinced my work is very good, even when people tell me it is. Just a warning, though, if you do decide to take the plunge - I'm a humor writer. I sometimes make things sillier than one would in a drama story and that includes putting characters in unusual circumstances. I also have an undying appreciation for Monty Python's style of humor. You can draw your own conclusions from that. ;)

    If you're interested, the link is in my sig, or you can PM me for a word file. :)

    Jae Angel
     
  16. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    hey, how bout some constructive criticism on the title? How about something a bit friendlier to catch peoples eyes better like The "Honesty is the best policy" Constructive Criticism thread ? :p

    or can someone come up with something better? :D

    sg
     
  17. Lt_Jaina_Solo

    Lt_Jaina_Solo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 2002
    I like that: "honesty is the best policy"
     
  18. solojones

    solojones Winner, JCC Word Whiz star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    I personally think if you can't take constructive criticism, your writing is never going to improve. If you don't care and you just want to write for you and for fun, then more power to you. But I think this is a great idea for those who do want honest feedback from people with various opinions. You don't always have to agree with it, but trust me, it helps. And if someone's being a jerk, well then, what you do is ignore them and if it persists, report them to the mods.

    I'd like constructive comments on this fic:

    [link=http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/14137878/p1]In the Shadow of the Chosen: The Obi-Wan Kenobi Saga[/link]

    It is my attempt to take the Obi-Wan we see in the films and flesh out the character, go more deeply into his thoughts and actions in the films, in between scenes, in the many years between films, etc. It's a major excercise in character study and trying to figue out how someone becomes who they are and why. I've tried to do as much research, introspection, and put as much thought into this story as possible, but I am only one person. I would greatly appreciate anyone else's comments on it. It's my labour of love and I want it to be as good as possible.

    [hl=darkgreen]-sj loves kevin spacey[/hl]
     
  19. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    I personally think if you can't take constructive criticism, your writing is never going to improve. If you don't care and you just want to write for you and for fun, then more power to you. But I think this is a great idea for those who do want honest feedback from people with various opinions. You don't always have to agree with it, but trust me, it helps. And if someone's being a jerk, well then, what you do is ignore them and if it persists, report them to the mods.

    Exactly. :)

    and I'm not going to offer to constructive crit your story solojones, because I've already been doing that. ;)

    sg
     
  20. CrystalKenobi

    CrystalKenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    I was glad to see this thread and I decided to post my thoughts here.


    You know on the computer it?s hard to tell how an author will take a reply or critique etc. There are people who don't take critique that is negative very well. some will take it and be angry with the reviewer and some will get emotionally depressed etc.

    My only idea would be that in the stories maybe authors could say that they take all kinds of critique whether they be good or bad. I know that I try not to post a comment in a negative way if possible because I don't know the person and how they would take it. What I have done is pointed out something that is good in the story and said that this is an example of where you did an excellent job of etc. This way maybe the author would pick up on the hint for style etc. But its rare that I find something that needs to have any pointing out at because of something negative. I should also add that I always write good comments no matter what because there is always something good in a story, even if they are mary sue types, for I feel that sometimes an author has to start there before moving up the ladder whether its as a new author or an old author trying a different approach in the way they write or type of story like mysteries etc, and I can only think of one of two instances where I had to use my pointing at system so that it won't be negative because I found a strong negative, but that has been ages ago.

    I have also found sometimes that replies could be misinterpreted by the author as to what the reviewer was trying to say. And the author would be upset. I had one instance of that and it was simply that I misunderstood something in the story and when I realize what the problem was I pm that author and apologized for misunderstanding and this is what I would have said if I had understood it the first time the way the author had intended it to be understood. It happens that readers will not grasp that same meaning that the author was intending.

    I think would side of ask the author about the review myself, especially if its not known how that author takes things. But at the same time movie critics do make negative reviews of movies without permission of others. So I can see both sides of the story. So I do have mixed feelings regarding this issue. Just so that you know, I take all forms of replies etc whether they are good or bad. For all I know I could be writing MarySue stories, so I relish replies, critiques etc. I do tend to write a draft first dealing with content more than grammar, due to the fact that I?ve always had trouble with seeing the grammar side of things over the content side, I just naturally tend to worry about content when I write, can?t explain it that?s just the way it seems. I then typed it up but as I type the story up, I still tend to deal with content more. I have been trying to have someone to look over my work before posting but I don?t always because of the way my life /work is I don?t? always have time especially if its in response to some deadline like with a challenge etc.


    So anyone is welcome to give me critiques whether they are good or bad or just advice, I am trying to build the OC that is in my stories for lots of other stories and for a big story that the little stories could link to. Edit. my stories are in side my bio, due to space problems in my sigature. My stories so far are very short.

    Again these are my opinions and are not pointing to anyone.

    :)
     
  21. spiritgurl

    spiritgurl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2003
    Hey Crystal? I dont see a link in your sig. :/

    It definitely is hard to know how people will react to that on the computer. And I think that's why people seem so sensitive about it here. Not that that's a bad thing, but again, I think it's worthwhile for those of us who are honestly okay with it, to make that known.

    Now that being said, I do think I prefer my construcitve crits via PM. That's the only thing that makes me nervous about making a statement in my story thread about accepting any and all kinds of crits. Not because I'll get all upset about it if it's on board (and I've had a few little criticisms that way), but more because if posted in the story thread it might be pointing out faults to other readers that perhaps the other readers would not have thought about otherwise. As solojones and others have said, the author should take or leave that "constructive criticism" and if the author honestly thinks something isn't a problem and has a satisfactory explanation for the "criticism" then they can just ignore that, if they don't then they need to rethink and possibly rewrite some things. But if a comment like that is out in your story thread for all to read then that seed has been planted in the other readers' minds that there is a problem. Also, I think it's just good manners to handle stuff like that in a private PM. As I'd mentioned I'd been giving solojones some feedback of this nature, and she back to me, but we have done it via PM and we are getting along just fine, not getting mad at each other for pointing out any possible problems. In fact, we appreciate it. :)

    I think one thing to keep in mind when giving constructive criticism too is that it doesn't always have to be all negative things. And in fact if all you are going to do is say "I hate this, I hate that" then that's really not "constructive" criticism, that's just plain criticism. So give reasons why you had an issue with something and what could be done to improve that, but also remember to point out things you liked so the author knows what they are doing right as well. And remember, as Mary Poppins once sang "a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down... medicine go down... medicine go down..." :p


    sg
     
  22. CrystalKenobi

    CrystalKenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2003
    Very well said SG. I agree about the pm way to do things. I've hoped that I have not implied that posting the negative stuff on the actual story board was the way to do things. I hope I have never done that. If I have then my apologies because I most likey have not realized that I have done that. ( I do sometimes have a problem where how something is in my mind does not go onto paper the same way, it can be just perfect in my mind but opps thats not the way it goes on paper) As a matter of fact I encourage people that if I have written something that maybe is not clear or you don't agree with because.... to pm me and let me know. Because even giving constructive criticism is something a person can grow at.

    I too have been reading solojones work, though far behind I am. I agree with you also on giving both good and negative constructive criticism.


    And thanks for the pointing out about the signature, I had forgotten that I had to take the link out because of space issues, so I had to put the story links inside my bio. Sorry about that.
    :)

     
  23. Vampi_Digitalwytch

    Vampi_Digitalwytch Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 11, 2004
    It's hard to find reliable betas. Every single one I've had had gone through a DRL problem (all 4)

    I've gone through 6, and each one lost due to RL. For me, it's very hard to find a beta able to handle my range of writing. Case in point, I can easily find someone who could handle my Trek fics, but not my original work.

    Currently I'm without a beta and I've been absolutely paranoid with things since the last one graduated college and doesn't have a home computer. Ever since one of my Xmen: Evolution crossover fics from waaaaaaay back when was torn to shreds over on the old GodAwful Fanfic site (They wanted to round up a posse to hunt down my English teacher from school for lack of proper teaching along with openly wondered if my family tree forked because this fic was so lousy). I'll give them the credit, the fic was abysmal and I'd written it off the fly-never will do that one again.

    I welcome a good brutal beta reading. Past betas have found where I left plot ends unaddressed along with plot parts that I thought were good, but really are lousy, areas where I could easily handle with less wordage than I used, busted me on my usual forgetting that the semicolon is my friend, my common spelling mistakes that I almost always miss somehow (thier instead of their) and if I flub characterization. They've also pointed out when I was smoking hot on dialog and pacing along with coming out with a great OC.

    Perhaps my trying to make it in the 'big leagues' with writing's what's given me a very thick skin when it comes to feedback or reviews. Knowing the identity of the reviewer isn't that important to me save that I'd like to be able to contact them for an elaboration why if need be. Even then, if it's not there, oh well. *shrugs*
     
  24. Daughter_of_Yubyub

    Daughter_of_Yubyub Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2002
    I've always been a strong believer in constructive criticism, and I'd love for people to look in on my stories and give me some.

    Goodness knows they aren't perfect, I don't even have a beta. :p
     
  25. Zane-Marit

    Zane-Marit Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2003
    Thank you Kettch...I am probably one of the people you mentioned about wanting criticism. I appreciate the replies that people like my work, but the only way I will grow as a writer is to get feedback showing what my mistakes are. Anyways...Here is one of my short stories to be picked and prodded.

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=15019620&start=15337100&search=A+Weapon+of+Hate
     
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