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ST How come Leia never forgive her father (Anakin)?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by DarthVist, Jun 19, 2021.

  1. DarthVist

    DarthVist Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2019
    In the sequel trilogy, it seemed that both her and Han still really hated him for what he did, and still always saw him as a monster despite him saving Luke.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  2. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    You mean, besides blowing up her home planet? :p
     
  3. dinnertime

    dinnertime Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2020
    Yea... Vader was complicit in the destruction of her home planet.
    Not to mention Leia and Han were both personally tortured by Vader.
    How does saving Luke have anything to do with forgiveness there?

    Neither Leia nor Han knew Vader as anything but a monster.
     
  4. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2005
    I mean, can you blame Leia and Han?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
  5. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Luke knew Anakin.
    He saw the man behind the mask. He saw his father as a FG, reunited with Obi Wan and Yoda - a lot of people hate how they changed it to Hayden in the revamped ROTJ, but I actually loved that scene.
    Sadly...Leia never got to see that. To her he would always be Darth Vader, the same with Han.
    And as I've said before, it affected both her and Han's relationship with their son. Whenever Ben had a normal childish tantrum his abilities cause things to fly around the room and smash. He was a child who at the time had no control over his powers, but to his parents, mentally scarred by their experiences with his grandfather, it was 'Vader manifesting in him'.

    Anakin's monstrous alter ego, and what he had done, cast a tragic shadow over his family that sadly resulted in Ben's 'fall'. In their fear he'd become like him, Luke, Han and Leia inadvertently helped push him straight into Palpatine's arms.

    It is the ultimate tragedy of the Skywalker family, and why I desperately wanted Ben to live, and therefore the family finally have a happy ending. It's also why I wanted Anakin to have a part in destroying Palpatine once and for all, as suggested by another poster, @maranatusIX ,here on this forum.
    I am absolutely sure if Lucas had written the ST he would NEVER have killed off the entire Skywalker line.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  6. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I don’t think there’s anything built into the story or characterisation (pertaining to the ST films) to determine one way or another. Anakin *should* have cast a long shadow over the ST (IMO), in terms of post ROTJ Leia and Luke at least, but Abrams was only interested in the iconography of Vader (the mask), because it’s an easier route for PR/marketing, rather than conceiving/writing anything of substance.
     
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  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It’s not surprising given how ANH and ESB unfolded. Leia never figuratively or literally saw “the man behind the mask” as Luke did.

    Also arguably Luke’s upbringing lent to more naive optimism than Leia. He wanted badly for Vader to be the father he had always imagined and his devotion paid off. Leia grew up with loving foster parents - who likely died when the Empire destroyed Alderaan. She had little reason to see anything but a monster.
     
  8. darthvader88

    darthvader88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2005
    I have not been caught up on my Legends or Canon material covering the period from the end of ROTS to ANH, but I am sure between that time, Leia and Han were witness to or heard of Vader's atrocities. Plus with him being complacent in her planet being destroyed, torturing both her in ANH and Han in ESB, it makes sense why they aren't gonna be forgiving him any time soon...

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
     
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  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Leia was not obligated to forgive Vader because Luke did.

    And nowhere in canon does it say that Leia saw Vader in a toddler Ben when he had a “normal childish tantrum,” and I’ve read The Last Shot and the Aftermath series, which are the only canon sources for Ben’s childhood.
     
  10. Nehru_Amidala

    Nehru_Amidala Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Vader destroyed her adoptive planet, tortured her, and froze her boyfriend in carbonite. I can't say I blame Leia for not forgiving him.
     
  11. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    So, they should have all joined hands and sung the GFFA version of Kumbaya?

    Turns out, they were right.

    I'm still waiting for an explanation of how having the murderer of Luke, Han and Leia, in one way or another, directly or indirectly, living is a happy ending.

    That, I agree on. I also agree killing off the whole Skywalker line and having a Palpatine turn into a Skywalker is completely crazy. But hey, I have a whole list of the usual suspects to blame for that. And their names aren't Luke, Han or Leia. I am dog tired of the narrative that they are the bad guys in all this. Whether it's from the creatives or sung at me by various defenders of "Ben Solo." That is the real blight on the narrative, that the creatives were perfectly fine with turning the heroes of the OT into failures and encouraged the narrative that they failed. They want to know why the ST failed? Start there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  12. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Fine, as usual I've been verbally slapped down by the Ben haters.
    Bit of advice guys...you'll never change my opinion!
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    You were not “slapped down.” Telling you that there is no canonical source for your perception that it is all Han and Leia’s fault that Kylo is the way he is, is not “slapping you down.” Disagreeing with your perception of Kylo is not “slapping you down.” Nobody is trying to change your opinion. We are disagreeing with you. That is allowed here whether you like it or not.

    And there will be no more warnings about your whining about other posters. Participate here with us as we are, discussing content and not us, or do not participate here.
     
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  14. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    As @Darth PJ said, the ST should have a bigger focus on Anakin's legacy affecting Luke and Leia, and less focus on Darth Vader's iconography. Outside of research homework to find out Hayden Christensen made a audio cameo, it doesn't feel like Anakin Skywalker even exists in the ST continuity.

    And that's a shame, because what the hell is Anakin's ghost even doing at this point? And given how much of the First Order is directly tied to Vader/Anakin, from Kylo to Snoke looking for a potential new Vader, to Anakin's relationship with Palpatine and the Sith, there should have been more to be explored, especially given how important the character is to I-VI.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2021
  15. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    You know what I found ironic about Han's statement that Kylo Ren was more like his grandfather than anyone else? I thought his statement was a load of bull. Kylo Ren caved in to evil for his own personal reasons, regardless of how confusion those reasons were. And to be honest, his personality seemed more like Han's than Anakin's to me. Or . . . if Han had become evil. What I found even worse about Han's statement is that both he and Leia wanted to blame Anakin for their son becoming an evil Force user (or Anakin's bloodline) rather than Kylo Ren himself. I thought that was one of the dumbest comments in "The Force Awakens" and a poor excuse of characterization from J.J. Abrams. And yet, the latter had hinted that Han and Leia were the ones responsible for Kylo Ren's downfall . . . along with Snoke. Rian Johnson tried to blame Luke . . . along with Snoke. Everyone wanted to blame someone other than Ben Solo aka Kylo Ren. It was sickening to experience.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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  16. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I believe Abrams isn't a fan of Anakin Skywalker.
    In interviews he said he preferred Darth Vader, who he loved as an irredeemable villain, and wasn't keen on the fact that he was eventually revealed as a former 'good guy'. As a Kylo fan I wasn't aware of this until after I saw TLJ, so I guess I should have been prepared for my favourite character's fate.

    Abrams also did this:
    https://www.radiotimes.com/movies/j...rom-final-cut-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens/

    Enough said. I guess Anakin fans were lucky to even hear his voice at the end of TROS. In any case, there was no room in TROS for another Skywalker. The ST was Rey's story, and JJ and DLF wanted to enforce that. Which they did.
     
  17. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Given that Vader was revealed as a former 'good guy' in the very first film, ANH, and that his possible redemption was on the cards in TESB, it makes you wonder how much of a 'fan' Abrams actually was. He'd probably never seen a SW film since he was 11...
     
  18. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Terrio was a huge fan of the Twins (Luke and Leia), he shipped them as a kid, and he always said that the real 'original sin' of the SW saga wasn't Anakin's fall (which is what Lucas said) but the Twins being separated.
    Which I've always found peculiar as they both had happy childhood with loving adoptive parents.
    This I think, was why he had them as FG smiling proudly on Rey at the end - closest thing to them having their own child, I guess, thus fulfilling his eight year old self's dream (must be nice to put your own fanfic on the big screen.)

    Regarding Abrams....I don't know if it was his idea, or DLF's, but someone I suspect wanted to replace the Skywalkers, and by extention the Solos, with their own creation. Which is Rey; hence the way every other character was pushed into second fiddle in TROS, despite whatever Abrams promised Boyega. DLF were the ones who wanted a female protagonist but as others pointed out, Abrams and Kasdan created Kylo Ren, so the decision to essentially kill him off thus forever ending the original saga family's bloodline must have been Abrams, as Kasdan wasn't involved in TROS.
     
  19. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Yeah, I figured JJ didn't care for Anakin outside of his ANH Vader persona. Abrams was part of the anti-PT propaganda that perpetuated during TFA marketing and that podracing flag stuff is absolutely ridiculous.
     
  20. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Forgiveness is a personal thing. Leia and Han had as much right not to forgive Vader/Anakin as Luke did to forgive Vader/Anakin.

    Vader tyrannized a galaxy for like two decades (second in command of the Empire Leia and her parents poured so much into resisting), tortured Leia and Han, and blew up Leia's home planet, killing her adoptive father and mother in the process along with who knows how many of Leia's friends and loved ones.

    Vader wasn't owed forgiveness by anyone.

    Actually, one of the things I've liked about New Canon is that Leia perceives herself as Bail and Breha's daughter, not as Vader's daughter.

    Adoptive bonds are just as valid as biological ones so Leia has every right to see her father as Bail Organa, the man who loved and supported her, not Vader, the man who tortured and abused her and blew up her home planet.
     
  21. Darth__Lobot

    Darth__Lobot Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2015
    I mean would you forgive that guy?

    Hey how come you haven't forgiven your dad? You know the guy who:

    - almost choked your mom to death
    - kidnapped and tortured you
    - murdered everyone you ever knew on your home planet
    - Killed your adoptive dad's jedi buddy
    - tortured and then froze your boyfriend
    - Cut off your brother's hand
     
  22. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    And killed a load of kids - remember that?

    @Deliveranze ..I might be wrong here, so bear with me, but I'm sure I heard somewhere that Abrams wasn't very happy that Harrison Ford included that scene where he stroked Kylo/Ben's cheek before he fell. As I say, I might be wrong, but if this is the case it confirms my suspicion that he did not intend to ever redeem Ben Solo.
    I..think he likes his villains to be one note; and I think that despite Ben being the last blood Skywalker , Abrams put the 'conflict' in his character simply to make him different from Vader. To put his 'own' stamp on him, so to speak. He recently said his character was always meant to be killed off, redeemed or no.
    In TROS I would not be a bit surprised if either:
    He chose to redeem Ben because Rian Johnson had made him more sympathetic, plus he had a large fan base or..
    It was Terrio's idea.
    I'm thinking the former.

    DLF wanted a female protagonist. JJ wanted to get rid of Lucas's characters. Both achieved their aim; Rey was shoved to the foreground so much in TROS that it was embarrassing, and redemption or no, Ben Solo was killed off in a truly inane way and then disappeared from the narrative.
    Rey, Rey, Rey....it was always about Rey. Everyone else was an afterthought.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    But how much bleaker would it have been if the last Skywalker died bad? At least they gave the last Skywalker a heroic ending.
     
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  24. PendragonM

    PendragonM Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Partially. As I recall, Abrams didn't script it but Ford did it, JJ liked it and then kept it in. It was Abrams' choice to remove it or not, Ford didn't have final cut approval.
     
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  25. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I know.
    But three things stop me from seeing it that way
    Ben was my favourite character. Of the entire saga.
    Nobody even mourned him. Not even his mother.
    Rey is a Palpatine.
     
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