ST how different do you think a Lucas ST would've been?

You are deflecting the issue, and responding to things I never said. I did not say he had everything mapped out, and I did not say that he left gaps in the OT on purpose to be filled in by a PT. I said it before and I will say again, ESB and ROTJ were released with the words Episode V and Episode VI in the movie theaters back in 1980 and 1983. This clearly means that he was planning to do the prequels since 1980 at the latest, if not earlier. This is not up for debate.

I did not speak about sequels anywhere. And as far as I'm concerned, I would have been 100% satisfied with the story ending at ROTJ. I didn't care for sequels anyway. But this topic explores how the sequels would have been if GL had made them. It's a hypothetical topic by definition. The truth is that Lucas planned to make at least 6 movies at some point in the early 1980s. The fact that he didn't have a specific timeframe doesn't mean that he wouldn't make them or that he was done with Star Wars. That's your own hypothesis, and history proved otherwise, since eventually he did make them. With your logic, George Lucas cannot win. Damned if he made them, damned if he didn't.

Yeah, obviously. Actions speak louder than words. Including "Episode V" in movie theaters in 1980 says a lot more than words. Making the prequels says a lot about whether he wanted or not to make them. Having a consistent story between 1 and 6 speaks a lot more than alternative storylines that he ended up not making. There is so far a 100% sample of George Lucas movies that prove his attention to detail, worldbuilding and meticulous planning of his story. Until he fails (which now he cannot), it's pretty fair to say that Lucas has an amazing track record when it comes to Star Wars storytelling.

Thanks for being condescending. How old do I need to be in order to converse with you? And please give me some sources so that I can educate myself before I can talk about George Lucas, that weirdo who dares to change his mind about his stories.

 

Actually, you are ignoring the larger context of my issue and latching onto one aspect of it. I have no doubts that George Lucas had story ideas for Prequels (amnd likely Sequels) as far back as the late 70's. This is quite different than "planning to do prequels."

Yep. There is a V attached to Empire Strikes Back, the a IV (and A New Hope) attached to Star Wars, and a VI attached to Return of the Jedi. I'm not sure you need to point this out. You can keep saying it all you want though. I am well aware.

Do some research. In the early 80's, Lucas didn't know if he'd get around to making more Star Wars movies post the OT. He's on record saying such. It is well documented. After 1983, George Lucas was done with Star Wars. He had a bitter divorce that impacted some of this, and he was famously burnt out on Star Wars.

Then, in the early 90's he saw the technological advances ILM was making when creating Spielberg's movie, Jurassic Park. It is at that point that he started actually/earnestly planning to do the Star Wars prequel. Again, this is all verified and well established.

No, but George Lucas spoke of them in the early 80's. He spoke of these hypothetical sequels and hypothetical prequels.

Again, do a bit of research. In the early 80's, Lucas spoke of 9 movies. It was never spoken of being just 6 films until he had began actually planning the PT in the 90's.

It's not my hypothesis. What I am telling you is not based on my speculation. It's literally the documented history of the creation of the Star Wars saga. I can provide amazon links to the books/sources if you want.

To say Lucas "planned to do the Prequel Trilogy" back in the early 80's is misleading. It's a bit like a kid saying they are planning to get married. Sure, Lucas had ideas for prequels, he had a story. Yet, he had ideas for a sequel trilogy as well. He wasn't "planning" in earnest to do either of these in the early 80's. He had outlines, story ideas, etc.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I love George Lucas and he's my hero.

Episode V are words. Literally.

You lost me here. This is not what I am talking about... at all. I agree that George Lucas and his story telling/track record is amazing.

As far as actions meaning more than words I dunno what to tell you:

I mean, Lucas made The Star Wars Holiday Special, and he did not want to make that. Yet he did. What do those actions tell you?

Lucas had the sequel to Star Wars (ANH) published it as a book called "Splinter of the Minds Eye" long before ESB was created. What do those actions tell you?

Before production began on ESB, the movie was actually titled Star Wars: Chapter 2 . What does that action tell you?

Lucas had Luke and Leia kissing and then changed his story/mind and they became twins. What does that action tell you?

They tell me that the creation of Star Wars was this ever evolving, every shifting, nebulous, process rather than concrete/definitive plans as you are stating.

I am not trying to be condescending. I am sorry if it's reading that way. The main issue seems to be your confusion on the timeline and the history of the creation of the saga. I love George Lucas. Yet, the fact is that he did not have a complete saga 1-6 all planned out back in the 80's. He didn't even have the OT all the way planned out back then.

Most importantly, I think it's crucial to note this:

In the late 70's/early 80's, George Lucas had ideas/hypotheticals/backstory/characters/sketches for Star Wars prequels (and sequels) beyond the OT. Yet, George Lucas did not earnestly plan on making the Prequel Trilogy until the early 90's. Again, this is not my hypothetical. This is the actual, documented, account of the making of our favorite saga.

Lastly, the only reason I bring up your age is this: Any Star Wars fan that was around and active from the mid 80's to early 90's lived through a time where Star War was basically dead except for in the hearts and minds of the fans. George Lucas wasn't even talking about Star Wars back then, let alone planning a new trilogy of prequels. We call it "the dark times."

So, when it is suggested (as you are doing) that fans always knew we were getting prequels from GL (or that he was planning them)as soon as we got episodic numbering attached to the OT films*, I want you to know that you simply are incorrect. That's not the actual history of how the saga was developed, nor created. It's good for fans to know this.

*When initially asked in the about the Episodes being labeled 4-6 Lucas would, more often than not, reference these as an homage to Saturday Matinee and Serial movies of his youth. It wasn't until much later that he said it was always a 1-6 Tragedy of Darth Vader plan. Again, I love George Lucas and he's my hero. Yet, I think the truth is important too.

 

You keep saying that, and you think that you know the slightest thing about what "research" I have done, but you don't.

Every single thing you mention in your once again condescending post (saying it's not condescending doesn't make it so), I have read many times before in the 25 years I have been a devoted Star Wars fan. On StarWars.com forums. Here. On websites. From friends. I know Lucas has changed his mind multiple times. I know he has talked about 9 movies. I know he has talked about 6 movies. I know he has been disillusioned with Star Wars a couple of times before. I still have a different interpretation of his intentions.

Good job twisting my words, since I never said the latter. But it comes to show that you just assume you know everything not just about Lucas' intentions, but also about what I have in my mind. Ironically, I completely agree that the creation of Star Wars has always been an evolving and shifting process. I never talked about concrete plans. All I said was that Lucas was planning to eventually make Episodes I-III and I stand by it. Otherwise, he wouldn't have named ESB Episode V since 1980. The when and the how he would make the prequels makes little difference to me.

And I never said that either. I never claimed he had the whole thing planned out. It seems to me that you think you are responding to someone else, who perhaps in similar conversations has told you that he had the whole thing planned. But I never said that. The amount of strawman arguments in your post is astonishing.

And I never talked about fans either, I only talked about Lucas. I watched the Star Wars movies for the first time ever in the mid to late 80s. I was even at that age perplexed by the numbering of the movies. My cousin, who was 9 years old in 1988 told me that he will make the rest of the movies eventually. And I thought "oh ok that makes sense". So what you perhaps consider the "dark times" because Lucas didn't explicitly come out to say "we are getting prequels in years X, Y and Z" , for others may have been "Oh ok Episode V and VI means that he is going to go back and make I to III". Which he did.

 

I am glad that you are so passionate and know your George Lucas history. Yet, I cannot help but wonder about how your above statement contradicts with what you said earlier...

This leads me to believe that you are clearly disregarding the actual history and process of creating/making/planning the SW saga and just going with your own narrative. As you say here:

Having different interpretations of facts doesn't negate, nor change facts.

Fact: Lucas wasn't planning the actually planning, or planning on doing, the PT in the early to mind 80's. This isn't my interpretation, nor my speculation, nor a hypothesis. It is a verified fact. This is why I say "do your research." It's not to sound condescending, but to let you know that there is a myriad of sources/books/materials that clearly show the process behind Lucas creating Star Wars. Facts are facts.

Of course you did. You said, repeatedly, as soon as Episode V was added to ESB, that meant George Lucas was planning the Prequel Trilogy.

Check it out, you said:

Again, you are quoted as saying Lucas was planning the PT as early as 1980. In fact, you tell me that "it's not up for debate." I am not twisting your worlds. Yet, the fact remains: Lucas did not actually begin planning the PT, in earnest, until the early 90's.

As you know, the only insight I have into your mind is based on what you write. I am simply responding to what you are typing. Again, I apologize that you feel that I am being condescending, or twisting your words. That is really not my intention. I am sorry. I can feel that you are getting hostile/aggressive in our discourse. I am more than okay if we stop our discussion.

And that's our issue. You are disregarding the actual process and history involved in making the prequels. You are simply saying that Lucas naming ESB Episode V is evidence that the prequels were a forgone conclusion and ignoring everything else.

I'll say it again: From 1983 to about 1991-ish, Lucas was done with Star Wars. He had NO plans to return to the GFFA, nor to make anymore Star Wars films. Then, with the advances in digital FX tech in the early 90's, he changed his mind.

What are you claiming then?

This is contradictory. You tell me that you were only talking about Lucas (who never mentioned anything explicitly about planning to make prequels). Then you proceed to tell me a story about a fan (your 9 year old cousin) that, apparently, had the inside track to George Lucas's unannounced prequel plans?

Do you see why your claims are so unwieldy? Your info isn't coming from anything Lucas said at the time, nor any official, insider info. You are telling me that, ultimately, I should believe you because your cousin told you so when you were kids. Yikes.

I'm sorry to say: Your 9 year old cousin was just speculating. Yeah, there were always rumors/hopes/wishes/ideas that Lucas would do more Star Wars films. Yeah, Lucas had ideas/sketches/background info for prequels.

However, in 1988 George Lucas was not planning on doing the prequels. Despite what your 9 year old cousin told you, Star Wars was done at that point.

Again, by the mid-80's, George Lucas was not sure if he'd ever go back and make more Star Wars films. It has long been confirmed that Lucas did not earnestly begin planning the PT until the early 90's. Look it up, then tell your cousin.


Let's bottom line it:

In the late 70's/early 80's did George Lucas have plans for prequels (and possibly sequels)? Yes, without a doubt. Does this contribute to the decision to number the OT Episodes 4-6. Of course.

However, this is different than what you seem to be saying, which is:

It was set in stone that Lucas was definitely going to make Star Wars prequel films as soon as he dubbed ESB "Episode 5". Again, this is simply incorrect.

 

Lol ok.

Sorry, I can't converse with people that draw their own incorrect conclusions from what I say.

It's just aggravating and it's not leading anywhere. You translate everything I say in your head falsely.

All of your assumptions about what I know or don't know are.... wrong.

Tell me how I am too young again.

Be safe.

 

I love George but he has been wildly, wildly, wildly inconsistent with his SW comments over the years.

 

Again, I apologize. I am just unclear as to what you are saying. Tell me if I have misinterpreted our debate:

Your position seems to be: The Prequel films were a certainty as far back as 1980. As soon as George Lucas numbered the OT Episodes 4,5,6 that means he was planning the prequels.


My position is: Although Lucas had ideas for prequels back in the early 80's, there were no concrete plans for them to be made until the early 90's.

Is this not the crux of our debate?

Again, this all goes back to a previous post by someone claiming that Lucas created the OT with gaps he intended to fill in with the PT. This is also incorrect.

 

@jaimestarr @DarthFixxxer If we go by everything Lucas has ever said about how he came up with the story, you're both right and you're both wrong. Lucas has said everything from he wrote Star Wars as only what we saw at the OT, with no plans for anything else, to he wrote Star Wars as a 9 part saga with what became the prequels in mind, and everything in between. So the truth is in there somewhere, and I can all but guarantee anyone of us could find a Lucas quote that supports our argument, but if Lucas cannot decide on what's the truth, our arguing about it is pointless.

 

No idea. It could’ve been totally horrible, or really good. But at least it wouldn’t have been mediocre, like the ST.

 

It would have been different in that it would have used newer technology to deliver the story. The ways and means to get the story across would surely be different. The story itself was chewed up and spit out by Disney in bits and pieces here and there (exiled Luke). JJ and Rian both met with George at some point and got his ideas. In the end they had Disney breathing down there neck and who knows how much of George's ideas had to go? The story was completely changed for TFA and with that success they had an "see we were right" attitude and TLJ back fired. Even tho Rian was handed a story with a huge hurdle in Luke's disinchantment. How would he even train Rey? No excuses with the slow chase space battle or Canto bight. They were just not good.
Darth Talon tempting Ben sounds amazing. Exploring the Force further sounds amazing. More midichlorians may be okay and interesting. Having Solo twins sounds like a win-win. Just wonder how Lucas would have handled Luke's exile? With all the kiddy stuff we received from Lucas over the PT, it would be safe to say what we got was fairly equal to what Lucas would have done. I know it would have flowed better with Lucas had he done all three films.

 

Trilogy ranking from most fans ( IMHO )

1. OT
2. PT
3. ST

Therefore I make the assumption that a George Lucas's ST would have been better than the ST we got - for one thing it would have been far more cohesive and better written and no copy and paste's and Luke Skywalker would have been far better treated than he was in the ST we got......

 

I think Lucas still would have had a Luke in exile. And it seems he wanted the story focused on Anakin's grandkids. Plural grandkids. And he's mentioned in the past year or so that he wanted to dive into the micro world of the Force. And we know from interviews in the 80s, from MH, that Lucas wanted to take it to another plane of existence, or get weird, or more spiritual.

I would also assume that he'd want Luke to set up a new Jedi Order at some point in the trilogy, or that the Skywalker/Solo kids take up the torch in some way. I don't think he'd use Palpatine again. But something in the dark side itself, or some other realm, bigger and more ancient than mere mortal Palpatine would end up being the Big Bad. Something to do with the Force itself, as a willful being that exists.

 

I’m not so sure. The earliest ST rumors I read - this was probably 2009 to 2010 - had Ian McDirmid approached about being in them. The switch to Palpatine in The Rise of Skywalker was probably a pivot back to something from Lucas’s stories. That’s not to say Lucas’s take on a returned Palpatine is what we got. It’s just as likely Lucas would have revealed Palpatine to actually be the bigger and more ancient dark side itself big bad.

 

Based on his recent interviews for The Star Wars Archives 1999-2005, Lucas definitely would have expanded upon the roles of the midi-chlorians and their relationship with the Whills.

 

would the mention of the midi c word have brought out all the prequel haters and made George's life a bigger misery? Just like 99 all over again. We just got a different kind of bashing.
JJ did use something of George's ideas but obviously not as much as George wanted. Rey would've been similar, the dark skywalker would've been dark.. a Palpatine sub plot..

 

Ian McDiarmid actually says (I think it may be in one of the TROS special features) that he was only approached about reprising his role just before TROS went into production. That strongly suggests that the decision to bring Palpatine back was a very late one... This doesn’t of course mean that Lucas wouldn’t have referenced Palpatine in his version, but I suspect Lucas never really envisaged Palpatine being resurrected.

 

My head cannon is that the Midichlorians were a PT Jedi fad. That the Jedi during this time period were mistakenly obsessed with this pseudoscience because they wanted to find the Chosen One and fulfill the prophecy. They started only allowing certain Jedi with high Midi counts to even be trained, became elitist in their ivory Jedi tower, and it's a big part of what led them to become blind to the dark side.

That's why Yoda and Obi-wan never mention them to Luke.

I think half of why so many people hate their inclusion into the lore is because of the way it was written in dialog.

 

still had an effect on George which resulted in him not making prequels. i also think all the ot3 would've died too.. they'd probably have had a scene together maybe not as much as fans wanted.. one of jjs biggest errors not doing some sort of scene with 3 of them.. would've been a healer

 

Reading the Star Wars Achieves, and reading between the lines, I’m pretty confident that Lucas wouldn’t have made a sequel trilogy that was literally about micro organisms going about their daily routine. I think Lucas was attempting to inject some Greek type mythology into Star Wars, and the more dominant angle would have been how the Whills (read the ‘Gods’) play into galactic events... I would have been interested in seeing how he’d done that.

 

I'm sure part of why Lucas decided not to make the ST himself was that he knew that pursuing those narrative elements (the midi-chlorians and Whills) would have invited more hate. He admits that they weren't as important to the PT narrative and so he largely dropped them after TPM. But it seems he would have been pretty intent on including them in a significant capacity for the ST.

 

I don’t think the OT3 would have died... Lucas was always historically resistant to that, but (as you suggest) I think they wouldn’t have been as prominent as many (including myself) would have liked... with only Luke taking a more significant role.

 

It was Lucas who got the OT3 signed up - or at least very interested-with his treatments before selling to Disney.

So I’m sure there would have been a reunion scene, at the very least, and then the story focuses on the new characters w Master Luke who’s MIA in exile.

 

I think Lucas probably would have either opened the sequels with something involving the OT3 (maybe an attack on the New Republic?)... or he would have had Luke on a mission (or missing) and have him show up in the final reel to save Han, Leia and the new characters etc. Either way, I’m sure they would have gotten a key sequence together... and as you say, he would have reunited them on screen for sure.

 

yea it would've been interesting to see what he would've done with the three together. im positive that Solo would still die in the first but maybe there was a scene whete they met in force or maybe it began earlier with Han and Leia together and they are part of a search party that found Luke. The end of TFA is, great but maybe Luke should have been found at the end of the second reel and a mini adventure with the three at end with Kylo still fulfilling the greek tragedy side of the story. Minor gripes for me but maybe ideas that could've been

 

Mark Hamill himself sad that in Lucas' ST Luke would have died in Ep IX. So Iam sure at least one more OT3 would have died in the movies.