main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST how different do you think a Lucas ST would've been?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by darthfettus2015, Nov 1, 2020.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Mr Spock. Doctor Spock is the childcare guy. :D

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Spock
     
    godisawesome likes this.
  2. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    George Lucas is obviously into his symmetry and rhyming poetry... and I imagine that although he was following the *Father*, *Son*, and *Grandchild* structure, by virtue of that, Luke Skywalker would have been as integral to the *Grandchild* story as Anakin/Darth Vader was to the *Son* story. Makes sense to me... Therefore, I believe Luke would have had a much more prominent role, direct involvement in, Lucas' version... even if the story focused on the grandchild/grandchildren... I certainly think there would have been less focus on the callbacks and iconography of the OT (which really overpower the ST for me), and I can see Lucas' trilogy ending with Leia becoming leader of the New Republic, Rey or whomever becoming the head of the new Jedi, and Luke ascending into some higher plain that was even beyond what Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin could achieve. i.e. he becomes a 'Shaman of the Whills' or something similar.
     
  3. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    • So maybe originally in the treatments and Arndt scripts, Kira Solo finds Luke in exile pretty quickly. LFL for some reason is scared about Luke over-shadowing the new characters. So they now decide on a potential blank state, and he's pushed back until the final second. Maybe this is where JJ came on board based on "Who is Luke Skywalker?".
    • So instead of whatever Kira and Luke are doing in that original plot, the new plot needed to be about finding Luke. And it would have to be almost entirely different than the treatment script. Why is Luke missing? The First Mystery Box. Which JJ doesn't even need to answer. Perfecto.
    • If Kira doesn't find Luke, who does she find? Who's the one OT3 character who can't over-shadow her? Han of course. He doesn't have the Force.
    • And so she finds him in the same narrative spot as Luke was formerly. But why does she find him? What's he doing? He's back to smuggling. Why? Because of what happened with Ben. Han and Leia are now split...which seems very Kasden to me since he's quoted as saying the same thing about the droids. And I think he and JJ prefer that side to the character anyway. That's classic SW.
    • If Han becomes the Mentor, because all SW movies need a mentor, JJ starts asking what are the quintessential elements of SW that need to be in a SW film. We need a Death Star, a hand-me-down lightsaber, Rebels v Stormtroopers, a planet blowing up, a cantina, x-wings, tie-fighters, and Vader. And we get all of that in TFA.
    • The one original part of the new plot was Finn. Kasden is responsible for that backstory. Was he even in the original treatment? Wasn't Finn originally called Sam at some point? And he was a smuggler or something very Han'ish. But if Han is now back to smuggling, there's no point in having 2 smugglers in the story. So Sam/Finn gets a new backstory.
    • Maybe this is when JJ turns Kira's past/origin into Mystery Box 2, as well, which they all agree won't get revealed until the last episode. Maybe originally Ben left his sister on some planet to save her, when he went to the dark side and destroyed the temple. He just wiped her memories and left her there. All of that would have gotten slowly revealed in the first episode or two, showing their connection, and how Kira was being trained until that fateful night, and how there might be an once of goodness in Ben still. But here's the thing; if Kira's past is only revealed at the very end, then you can't really show that as part of the story. You can't have part of Ben's backstory saving her. Or showing the one sign of being a good person. You can't establish a reason for his redemption. Or even a reason for why Kira would want to save him. And that's why we don't have anything on Ben. That's why he's is a mystery box too. Because that would have ruined Kira's mystery. And all we have left of that is...'what girl', which makes it seem like Ben knows something we don't.
    • And then the final puzzle piece is that Kira'a name is changed to Rey during filming, because I guess JJ felt people might figure out the mystery box too soon, ruining everything. And then they tell RJ don't ruin the surprise. RJ asks if Luke can not have floating rocks around him, because he figured out what Luke was doing on that island. And JJ says sure. And then RJ is responsible for figuring out why Rey and Ben have a connection, since they can't reveal that Rey is his sister.
    Something like that maybe? Just thinking out loud. Of course that doesn't explain why RJ turned Rey and Ben into romance. Maybe he didn't know the reveal. Or maybe JJ didn't care, as long as he took the story ...somewhere. He just set it up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  4. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Yes - all interesting ideas. I think that the ST house of card starts to topple as soon as Abrams and Kasdan swap out Luke for Han in the mentor role. All of a sudden the underlying thematic/narrative context, that Luke Skywalker brings (and by virtue is the connective tissue to both the OT and PT), is completely washed away. And from that point the writers are struggling to actually make the ST feel coherent and relevant to the SW saga. They have Han Solo (the cool character played by Star Wars biggest star) in a major role, but it's all rather meaningless to the wider story. It then becomes a successive rescue job that each film has to deal with... i.e. how do we make this relevant to what went before and what comes after?
     
  5. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Yeah. It just becomes a succession of "well what do you now?".

    And not revealing Reys mystery was the second major thing that broke the story. They ruined a story just to keep a mystery going. If TLJ had Kylo reveal to her that she's his sister, and he dumped her there - and she's already beginning to remember things - it would have been explosive in the same way that Luke was Vader's kid. It would have established all the reason for Rey to want to save him, etc. But ...that would have been too close to the OT. The copy game would have been up.

    So that's why they reordered the OT. So that it didn't seem like they were just copying it. The problem with that is, is you can't just reorder a narrative and expect it work the same way. Then once JJ came back on board for 3, he realized because of the romantic angle, Rey couldn't be Ben's sister like he planned for TFA. It was too late for that. So now she needs another lineage. Enter: The Palpatine.
     
    Jedi_Fenrir767, 2Cleva and Darth PJ like this.
  6. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2015
    Why would people guess sooner the mystery if her name was Kira? I don't get it.
     
  7. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I think cuz that part of the treatments had been revealed or leaked during filming. And cuz George said “vaders grandkids” not kid
     
  8. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I think because it was widely known, prior to TFA, that Kira (as Lucas envisaged it) was the daughter of either Luke or Han/Leia.
     
    Jedi_Fenrir767 and Jo Lucas like this.
  9. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2015
    LOL we were robbed of Rey Solo for the sake of mystery boxes
     
  10. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    I also wonder - ie: don't think - that Kira was meant to be a mystery in GL treatments. Maybe for the first part of the first movie. But by the end, she'd figure it out, have her memory back, etc. I don't think GL would do another big twist like that in the 2nd movie, ala No, I am your father...although maybe he would.

    Where did they come up with "Finding Luke" on their own. Maybe there was some part of the GL treatments about finding someone.

    Hell. Total conjecture here but: Maybe instead of Kira finding Luke, it's the other way around. Maybe Luke crawls out of exile, because he finally finds her. He's been in exile searching through the force for the past 6 years, trying to find the long lost Solo daughter. It's not Kylo he's upset about losing. He's hates that he lost Rey. Where did she go? Rey doesn't know who she really is yet. Maybe her own parents think she's dead. And instead of everyone racing to find Luke, it was more about racing to find Kira Solo, because Kylo would be after her as well. And Kylo - who originally may have spared her when he destroyed the Temple - doesn't want her to return, because she's the one part of him that represents his good side. His last good act. And he doesn't want that back.

    I could definitely see how this type of story line would have Luke appear to over-shadow Kira. It also answers the question as to why none of the parents/uncles would go looking for Kira after being dumped on Jakku. Maybe in the original, they were. They hadn't given up yet. And it was Luke who was leading the search party.

    Weird. These motivations suddenly start making a lot more sense. But with this element in a mystery box, Kylo is instead written to think his entire family represent his weakness, has to kill them and prove his darkness, even though there's nothing really in the story to warrant this. Even though he's been a dark sider for 6 years.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
    Darth_Bertie likes this.
  11. alwayslurking

    alwayslurking Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2019
    Excellent speculation in regards to how this likely went down. In regards to the quoted, I think it's twofold. First, RJ is a shipper. Pretty simple there. It's not a coincidence that his movie was so much like a fanfic that someone accused him of stealing their story (not saying he did - clearly he didn't - but just saying TLJ was loaded with lots of shipper fanfic tropes). But even more importantly: as much as JJ loves mystery boxes, RJ loves subversion. As much as I think JJ is happy to be diet Spielberg, RJ wants to be seen as groundbreaking and revolutionary. TLJ was likely written to be seen as pivoting away from the "rehash" direction set up by TFA, logic be damned. Unfortunately, he only broke things down without introducing a meaningful new direction, which left the trilogy in a horrible position going into it's last chapter (and even worse, chapter 8 of 9 of the saga).
     
  12. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I think you're exactly right... and in that sense, both Abrams and Johnson were the worst choices for the most appropraite filmmakers to take Star Wars forward (in terms of 'saga' films).
     
  13. Vympel

    Vympel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2002
    I'm confused, how would Abrams ever be planning for Rey to be Ben Solo's sister in TFA? It was too late for that the moment that movie's script was finalised, nevermind coming back for TROS.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  14. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Why was it too late for TFA? You mean because Leia and Han, and Kylo don't act like she's their daughter/sister? I guess I could chalk that up to JJ wanting to preserve some emotional mystery over having a story that makes logical sense. I don't think that's out of bounds for JJ.

    So like I said, total conjecture based on trying to figure out the series of events that led from the GL treatment where she was most likely a Solo, to the ST being about Kira Solo/Rey Solo/Rey Nobody/Rey Palpatine. There's also the question of why the'd keep her name Kira, even after potentially wanting to remove her story as a Solo daughter. And then finally during filming changing it altogether to Rey because they still wanted to keep her past a mystery. and the Kira name leaked. Palpatine certainly wasn't part of the answer, or her story, in TFA.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  15. 2Cleva

    2Cleva Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Nah. We were robbed of "Rey Solo or Rey "really" Skywalker" because TPTB thought they could build a better SW foundation than what GL left behind.
     
    wobbits, Jedi_Fenrir767 and Darth PJ like this.
  16. chris hayes

    chris hayes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 13, 2012

    So to cut along story short : JJ didn't want Luke to over shadow new characters and clearly didn't like GL's treatments cause it didn't fit his mystery box agenda so basically he took the basic story line of ANH and adapted it to suit a basic reboot of Star Wars.

    Rey is the New Hope
    Han is the Mentor who Dies
    Luke is the death Star plans
    And in the end they blow up the mother ship using x-wings

    Gee where have I seen that before [face_thinking]
     
  17. Vympel

    Vympel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Well yeah, none of them acting like she’s related to them is a huge problem. It’s not out of bounds for JJ given the Palpatine nonsense, but it’d definitely be even more egregious. Like imagine writing Han and Leia talking for what is clearly a long time about how they lost their son and having it so neither of them decide to mention even to each other their long lost / dead daughter. It’d have produced howls of derision greater than Rey Palpatine, surely.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  18. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Yeah. And the only reason why I'm even considering this very outlandish theory is because of his Khan BS reveal in Into Darkness. That too had no emotional impact on the characters in that moment, whatsoever, had no build up in that story, and was only done for the audience who basically suspected well in advance that it was happening. This is almost that, 2.0.
     
  19. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    I actually think it’s more likely that when Abrams introduced the mystery box, he himself didn’t have any particularly lineage attached to it, but rather probably a list of candidates that he figured could be worked out when they got there. That’s how he operates; the mystery even applies to himself, no matter how inefficient or counterintuitive that may be.

    To Abrams, beyond the cynical marketing ploy, the mystery has an appeal simply by being a “mystery” - he’s a bit like the kid who passes the comic shop and sees a cover where Superman so doing some bizarre, crazy “Superdickery” thing, and that’s the deciding factor for what comic he buys.

    So I think what happened was the second he thought “Gee, it would be cool of Rey’ parents were a mystery!” he immediately disconnected himself from whatever the answer had been before (Solo) and instead listed various possibilities in his head that he didn’t think through that much - Solo, Kenobi, Skywalker, Palpatine, etc. That, more than anything, is why I think Johnson could be 100% truthful that he could have decided who Rey’s parents were with his film - that Arabs, literally felt that kind of non-answer was a good “flexibility” to have.

    Now, of course, the way Johnson answered the question allowed Abrams to obfuscate and introduce the Palpatine one, but I think that was more because of the way Johnson did the reveal - that Abrams would have honored any answer that was harder to dodge on. But, thanks to the context Johnson left Abrams and LFL’s desires for Kylo, we got Palpatine back, and Abrams then went straight for Rey Palpatine because he again feared (this time I would argue, correctly) that Rey Random would be overshadowed by an enemy brought back for Kylo and his family.

    ...Which of course is a lot of walking around the fact that, pretty clearly, Rey Skywalker would have been the best answer after TFA because, unlike Rey Solo, it would have combined both mystery boxes to allow the explanation for Luke’s exile and failure to raise Rey. And I think the clarity of that expectation and logic might have contributed to how hard Johnson worked to keep any relationship from happening between them - the purest subversion of the most logical solution.
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    And if you want to show Luke as “not the perfect Jedi”, showing him breaking the no-attachment rule would be worlds better than showing him pulling a saber on Kylo (a plot point only there to score pity points for Kylo) and emoting on an island while the Resistance needed help.

    Rey could have been kidnapped, maybe with her mother whom Luke would know to be dead, and Luke could believe Rey was dead as well. That’s what I thought when I saw the ending scene of TFA. That scene would have been much more poignant if it were Luke seeing his daughter after believing she was dead for years. Also a good mirror to Luke finding his father after believing that he was dead.
     
  21. Vympel

    Vympel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2002
    We know enough about the ST's production process now - from the various quotes in the art book, to Daisy Ridley's own comments on the matter, to Abrams comments on the matter - that of all the possibilities of who Rey's parents were, the one which was absolutely never considered was Luke. Rey was closer to being a Kenobi (totally pointless and dramatically inert namedrop that would be) than she ever was to being a Skywalker.

    Which makes perfect sense, given that if you ever wanted Rey to be a Skywalker, you wouldn't have her have a deep and meaningful conversation with Maz where she tells Rey that her parents are never coming back, but Luke Skywalker could.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  22. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    As much as I would have preferred Rey Skywalker, actual daughter of Luke, or even adopted in early age ... I'm going to lean against the thinking that they included that parentage in the realm of potential possibilities. Despite the blatant Rey seems a lot like Luke in many respects elements, I don't think she was his kid in their minds.

    Only because the linch pin for their entire shift away from the GL treatments was Luke over-shadowing Rey. If she was actually his daughter, even potentially, they never would have felt that Luke could over-shadow her, because she is him. Her power is his power. Her story is his already. Much in the same way that they didn't fear Vader over-shadowing Ben. Because to them, his power, was Vader's power. And so they used it as part of the story.

    See where I'm going with this?

    The only way for them to fear Luke was going to over-shadow Rey, was if Rey wasn't his kid. A niece, sure. But a child of Luke would never have been over-shadowed because she would be part of his story. Fear of Luke also I think, made them want to shift the entire franchise away from Luke. And so Rey being his kid, wouldn't accomplish that desire.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  23. godisawesome

    godisawesome Skywalker Saga Undersheriff star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    Yeah, that checks out.

    It just also seems a peculiar option to discard if you have purely mercenary interests (Disney), or trying to understand a conventional fan’s POV of the story (LFL).

    I can almost think of it being about respecting Lucas’s own dislike of Luke being married and a father in the old Legends EU... but they were extremely cavalier and open towards discarding a bunch of his other preferences without a second thought.

    And I seriously don’t see any real problem with Maz’s line to Rey in TFA and the potential reveal of Luke as her father - Maz’s line is festooned with easy to recontextualize traits that seem markedly easier than other options, including the “she just has that power and special fate, okay?” aspect of Rey Random,

    It’s just bizarre to think that when you have a room full of people trying to make a profitable and popular entry into Star Wars, no one would go for the easy home run. Johnson being obstinate at least makes sense in that clearly they wanted him to throw curveballs, even if he was otherwise incompetent at taking the long view of the story and character. But Abrams and Kennedy? Heck, I feel like even Iger could see the superior viability of Rey Skywalker from his seat far away from the production.
     
  24. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Thought I read the Solo son in the Lucas treatment was going to go from good to bad in the course of the first movie. In the movies we got the Solo son was split into two characters. Kylo Ren adapted the bad version of the son. Finn is based on the Solo son character when he was good.

    Kylo Ren also replaced an additional Dark Side Force user who would have worked for the Lucas treatment’s version of Snoke.
     
  25. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Luke was never going to the father, Lucas never wanted that why he didn't like old EU I think
     
  26. Vympel

    Vympel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Yeah I've also heard that as far as Lucas is concerned Luke would never have married or had children - but on the other hand I'm not sure anyone developing Episode VII would've cared. For me the background info is fairly conclusive anyway.