ST how different do you think a Lucas ST would've been?

Lucas would have had a story and theme(s) that went along with the similar plot points. The ST only had plot points, no coherent story.

So, for instance, when people say the ST is great because Lucas would have done something similar with Luke's failure, it completely distorts the reality that the problem isn't Luke failing or having struggles, but that the ST lacked the story and theme to provide the sufficient depth and logic to it all.

And as for the Whills, although the idea was easy for people to mock, I suspect that Lucas would have made it work and we would have had a whole new dimension added to the Saga. What a tragic loss for the story and franchise, and all because executives were more interested in producing a shallow imitation of the OT for quick profits.

 

I think you have valid points. However, I think that many people are quick to forget/ignore just how divisive and derisive fans were towards Lucas during/after the Prequel Trilogy. My suspicion is that a significant portion of people would spit venom at Lucas's "whole new dimension" that you speak of.

Example: look at the additions mythology/story Lucas was infusing into The Clone Wars. There was a large/vocal contingent of viewers that despised Ahsoka, resurrected Maul, etc. I cannot imagine that a proposed Lucas trilogy would be more warmly regarded than the PT was, or the ST we got.

 

Not everyone would have liked it. But in my estimation the PT was more warmly received than the ST we got.

 

Hmmm. Were you around and actively involved in SW fandom in 1999? 2002? 2005? It was brutal on a whole other level. The George Lucas hate was incredible and unfair.

 

I was not involved in fandom that long ago but I have read a lot of discussions from that time. I was around for the post-2008 when YouTube reviews absolutely trashing the prequels were big. And I stand by my statement that the PT was not as universally criticized as the ST even in the early 2000s when it was the only Star Wars trilogy to compare to the originals. The prequels stood the test of time, the sequels were only popularly regarded as better than the prequels for a few years before they concluded, and now TFA has been reappraised.

 

I'm here to tell you....with all due respect....you are wrong. The PT was WIDELY reviled and lambasted not just by internet fandom, but by mainstream media as well. I don't say this as an affront to the PT...I love those films. Yet, the Phantom Menace was one of the most hyped films events ever....and the backlash was brutal.

Have you ever heard the tragedy of Mannequin Skywalker? The spite towards the PT went waaaay beyond anything the ST was/is criticized for. The venom spewed at GL was horrendous. People literally claimed that, with the PT, George Lucas "raped their childhood." As I said, the criticism was harsh and, for the most part, unfair. Post-2008 PT criticism is nothing compared to when the films were new, and far outstrips any criticism that the ST has had to endure.

Bottom Line: The vitriol aimed at the PT was (and still is in some circles) way more than anything thrown at the ST. This is not a condemnation of either trilogy, I am just saying that, the PT was crucified several times over in a way that the ST wasn't/isn't.

 

I was around, and the venom towards the PT makes the venom towards towards the ST look tame by comparison..

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If you look at the state of discourse around the sequel trilogy i think it’s clear that the criticisms and hatred have reached the level that it did in the prequels. Rey Skywalker is the new Jar Jar Binks

And the serious narrative criticisms of the sequel trilogy are far more severe than not having a taste for Jar Jar Binks or the acting.

Even though I believe the prequels are superior in every way, I’ll concede that the critical reception of the sequels is influenced by them having the popular perception of better acting and visual spectacle. It’s not uncommon to hear statements like “the prequels are better conceptually but they aren’t executed as well”, which I recognize even if I wholly disagree.

higher scores from magazines despite the plot and characters being hated by big fans.

but in the end, the prequels are a story told by by the original author to fulfill his artistic vision, while the sequels are several author’s story told to appeal to a mass market. And so I think the prequels naturally are more respected by fans and will continue to grow in estimation and be analyzed as part of the original work while the sequels and everything that follows in the future will always be considered something separate.

 

Yet, by your own admission, you weren't around during the heyday/release of the PT. So, how can you know? You are looking at the PT criticism in hindsight. You are viewing this in a historical context only...thus your view is a bit skewed as PT criticism has softened. Most of those that "hated" the PT have jumped of the SW bandwagon long ago.

1. The fact that you think "Jar Jar" and "the acting" were the main criticisms of the PT just underscores the point that you weren't around for (don't have a good handle on) the venomous backlash that the PT/Lucas endured in the late 90's early to mid 00's. It goes beyond those two surface level issues.

2. Fair or not, the criticisms of the ST simply aren't as widespread as the PT criticisms are/were. With the PT the backlash wasn't just relegated to online fandom...it bled into the cultural zeitgeist in a HUGE way. Example: Mainstream talkshow hosts and SNL were routinely found skewering the PT. You simply don't/didn't see this amount of mainstream roasting of the ST. It's usually more niche and relegeted to online fans. Again, this is not an indictment/endorsement of either trilogy...it's just how things are/were.

Yep. Contingents of SW fans will always piss all over the PT and ST for various reasons. That's just how it is, unfortunately.

However, as you alluded to: The mainstream/critical reception was much warmer for the ST overall. Again, the venom that was spit at Lucas over the PT was horrific and you really had to be there to fully understand/appreciate what it was.

 

It doesn't matter how widespread it is, the ST is a product that lacks creativity and real weight.

 

I’m too young to know what it was like then, but I can tell you that in my memory, I’ve never seen talk show hosts or SNL talk about what movies they do or don’t like at all. All I’ve ever seen them talk about is politics and celebrity gossip. I’ve met people who call Anakin in TPM, “Luke”. Meeting people who know anything about Star Wars beyond, “Luke, I am your father” has always been rare for me offline.

 

I was there for the PT and experienced a ton of fan, casual, and media enthusiasm in addition to the negative stuff. I think some have retconned the 99-05 era as nothing but nonstop RLM-style feedback, which wasn't the case at all.

ST might have not hit the critical mass of complaints. But nor did it get a critical mass of positive attention either aside from TFA in isolation. I'd say ROTS landed with a much bigger cultural impact than TROS.

 

Speaking of cultural impact and the media. I think even the negative attention from the media shows that the prequels were more impactful. There’s nothing as outrageous as Watto for the news to complain about in the sequels. By design it’s supposed to be safe and inoffensive, all the aliens are brown so you don’t look at them

 

Honestly if Lucas actually released his Sequel Trilogy (whatever version it may be), by 2015 or earlier, then it would 100% get carried by the "George Lucas ruined our childhood" bandwagon that was at it's strongest back then, the trilogy wouldn't even be given a chance to prove itself, it would suck because it was Lucas doing it, furthering "ruining" what he did in the OT, at least with the Disney sequels the general public was open to give them a chance because of the rejection of Lucas.

That said personally i feel that if Lucas kept the franchise he would simply never make VII-IX, as that was his stance before the buyout.

 

Disney had seemingly moved on from the ST before TRoS was even released. That was in the rear view mirror.

And Disney had already landed the biggest cultural impact of Star Wars since The Empire Strikes Back - Baby Yoda.

 

He's certainly not at all done right. He's arguable more consistently performed. But there's nothing to do with his character. He's more a far worse version of Anakin. To say he's done right, is basically saying they wanted an Anakin who started out bad, with motives strictly centered on power, and basically nothing else. Which says very little about the overall story and characters involved.

 

I think people say that because of the naturalistic dialogue of the sequels. Driver and the other actors perform exactly like they would characters in movies or plays set in our world. That seems more familiar to audiences than Christensen’s performance, or that of other actors in the prequels, which is not meant to be naturalistic but instead is modeled on the dramatic, almost theatrical dialogue of the early 20th Century films Star Wars is styled after.

 

Undoubtedly true. But it's funny to me that two of my least favorite Star Wars films share the same letters in their respective acronyms.

 

That's probably because ROTS - if anything - ended the trilogy by finally giving fans what they were craving for, for nearly 20 years. Seeing the creation of Vader, the Empire, the exile of the Jedi, birth of Luke/Leia, etc. Quality issues aside, those plot points finally took place on screen.

TROS on the other hand, only cared about pleasing Reylos, who were probably the only ones left invested in the ST by that point, and didn't really do much of anything else to 'hit the landing'.

 

Well its not just Reylos that mocked that. But sure.

I actually think TROS is better than the previous movies. and im not a Reylo. So lets not assume only certain types of people like TROS.

 

Oh I hated TROS through and through and especially hated the Reylo scene.

 

I liked TROS, because I like the message of the galaxy coming together to beat the New Empire, wish we could have SEEN it, but at least we got the result. I also like Rey having a struggle with darkness within herself, even if it was half baked.