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ST How do you build off the Sequel Trilogy moving forward

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Jid123Sheeve, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    I gave a pretty detailed break down of what happened to Luke in the film prior to him loosing it with Vader.
    Why are those events not important as context to you?

    Luke was the main character for three films that took place over several years. We saw how he was like and how he grew and evolved.
    So Luke is not a blank slate character, the audience has a pretty clear picture of who he is, what he would do and what he likely would not do.
    Ex if a sequel had Luke frequently use the Jedi mind trick to get women to sleep with him. That I would consider to be out of character for Luke. And the film would then need to explain why Luke is abusing his powers in this way.

    You can change him sure but if that change is significant, which I think it is in TLJ, then you also need to give a good explanation as to why Luke has changed. Give context. And here TLJ didn't, to me.
    And Luke acts differently in TLJ than he did in the OT.
    So his character has changed, TLJ makes that very clear.
    So there is a conflict with how Luke is presented in the OT and how he is presented in TLJ.
    In the OT, he thought that turning back from the dark side was possible, now he does not. Why?
    In the OT he cared about his friends and loved ones, now he does not. Why?

    Again, Luke is not a blank slate, who he was and how he was like was established over three films.
    Anyone making a sequel to the OT and wanting to use Luke, would need to look at Luke was like, consider what they want Luke to be in their film and if a major change has occurred with Luke, then they need to explain how and why Luke has changed.
    Simply saying, "Many years have passed, people change, get over it!" Does not cut it.

    Except this argument has several problems.
    1) Vader, he had been on the dark side and done quite a lot of evil for well over ten years. Luke knew of that and he had personal experience of it as well.
    Plus his two mentors were pretty clear that turning to the dark side was a one-way street, you don't come back from that.
    And yet despite all that, Luke held out hope and he was proven correct.
    2) Ben on the other hand had not done any evil act so far.
    Plus, Luke was told by Yoda that visions of the future were not always accurate, "always in motion is the future."
    Further, in ANH and ESB, Vader is not shown with much in the way of doubt or hesitation about what he was doing.
    Kylo in TFA instead talks about the pull to the light, Clearly showing that he was conflicted.

    Not to mention raising question as to how Snoke managed to turn Ben, what reasons Ben had for embracing evil etc.

    So that Luke would give up instantly, given his past experience makes no sense.
    If Luke had tried to reach Ben and try to turn him back and that had resulted in an even worse situation, then maybe.

    Say that Ben turns due to this and just leaves, he does not kill any students but a few go with him.
    Luke wants to set things right and he gets a tip over where Ben will be. So he takes his senior students with him, leaving the rest behind. And goes to find Ben.
    He does and Ben is with Luke's former students. Luke tries to reason with Ben, that it is not too late etc. But a fight breaks out.
    And Luke, too late realizes, that this was a trap and he had underestimated how powerful Ben was.
    So his other students are killed, he only manages to flee with his life and when he gets back to his academy, it is burning. Snoke and the FO attacked it while Luke was gone.
    Now were are getting closer to something that I could see breaking Luke.

    Ex, ST Voyager and the character of Kes. She left the show early in season 4. Until then she had been an overall good person, kind and caring. Then she got "god-powers", sent Voyager away and then went of into the Universe or something. So a send-off.
    Then she came back in season 6 but now she was evil and crazy and had no problem with betraying her friends and former lover so that they would get their organs harvested.
    And the ep. did not give much in the way of explanation as to why she was suddenly like this.
    Plus to me, Jennifer Lien seemed to struggle to act like this evil monster.

    And I was left wondering what the point was.
    Kes had a proper exit from the show and now she comes back as an evil villain, why?
    To people that don't know Kes or care about her, it would not matter much and to those that did like Kes, this would likely feel like a slap in the face.
    And I have not come across much in the way of like/support for this ep.

    Good, we agree on something.

    The fact that Luke's friends were dying in the battle outside I think is highly relevant.
    That was the reason why Luke lost it the first time and let his hate get the better of him.
    He had already let his hate boil over and start fighting.
    He had managed to calm down a bit but the strain and pressure was still there.
    He was trapped, he could not escape, only hide for a little while. Trying to attack Vader and Palpatine would likely not accomplish anything other than turning him to the dark side.
    As far as he knows, the rebellion is getting crushed, all hope is lost. Han and Leia on Endor are walking into a trap, they could be in a fight right now, which could end with them captive or dead.
    Also, Luke knows that the emperor wants him, because of who and what he was. Leia would also be a prime target for Vader/Palpatine. That is why he was told to bury this knowledge deep and now he had failed.

    As I've said, there is more to Luke's reaction here than just Vader threatening Leia, there is a greater context.
    And that context makes Luke on the DS2 a very different scene than him in the hut.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  2. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019
    Becuase I don't interpret those events the same way you do.

    I really don't see why you guys seem to have so much trouble understanding that.

    Well, that's not what happened, and TLJ did indeed explain why Luke was acting the way he was, irregardless of whether or not you personally felt the explanation worked for you.

    The film gave an answer for both questions.

    I did'nt say he was a blank slate.

    And they do explain why he's changed. You just don't think the explanation was adaquate. That's fair, but an explanation was given.

    The point is we know he sensed conflict in Vader and that was why he was convinced he would turn, while he apparently sensed none in Ben.

    Evidently he was not conflicted that night in the hut, however, as Luke did'nt see conflict - he saw a darkness beyond anything he had ever imagined and an apparently impending betrayal.

    And heck, all he did was think about maybe killing Ben for a brief second; I've thought about assualting peaple, commiting robbery and was even breifly tempted to kick my cat one time when she went number one on my bed (not to mention I've been tempted to slap my neice from time to time), but I never actually did any of those things so I don't see the problem - good peaple can be tempted to do horrible things, it's part of being Human - I don't judge Luke for being briefly tempted to kill Ben, I judge him on the fact that he had the presence of mind and moral character to immedatly relized that said thought was a bad thing and dismiss it.

    Look, that's your headcanon for what it would take to to break Luke and I appreciate that and understand it, but from were I'm standing you don't know or own the character any more then any other fan, many of who have different views on the character and visions/expections then you; Rain Johnson happened to be one of those fans who held a different viewpoint on the character and what it would take to break him, and the only difference between him and the fans that think different is that he fortunally/unfortuntally (depending on which side of the fence your on) got to write and direct TLJ, and they did'nt.

    Kes did'nt become evil, she went senile and mistakenly believed the Voyager crew had abandoned her, and then she relized and remembered what actually happened at the end of the episode. A better analogy is how some peaple (not me) think Picard is out of character in the new show becuase he went home to his vineyard to spend a decade or so wallowing in his fustration and bitterness after the Federation hung the Romulans out to dry and Starfleet tossed him aside like soiled underwear.

    But we have a different thread for this.

    No, in the situation we're discussing he lost it becuase Vader made an implied, offhand threat agianst Leia. It had nothing to do with Luke being fustrated or anyone else being in danger, or even Leia being in danger from the battle, it was just Vader saying "oh well maybe I'll turn Leia to the Dark Side" and honestly, from were I'm sitting that's a weak-arse reason to flip out relative to witnessing your nephew's immense inner darkness and reciving a vision of him harming multipule peaple and destroying everything you hold dear, so as far as I'm concerned if Luke can actually flip out on Vader and very nearly kill him for something so minor, then it's perfectly in-character for him to just think about maybe killing Ben for a breif moment for a much more serius reason.

    But thanks for reminding me that he also tried to murder Palpatine out of fustration even though doing so would'nt accomplish anything to save anyone outside. I know your not trying but your really only convicing me further that what Luke did in TLJ was in-character - Luke's axe crazy when he gets triggered![​IMG]
    Look at this man's eyes! He's probobly thought about killing everyone at one point or anouther when they say just the wrong thing - heck, he's probobly thinking about killing someone right now![face_hypnotized][face_nail_biting]
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    Iron_lord likes this.
  3. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 18, 2017
    I would have paid good money to see that Luke Skywalker come in and kill his whiny island-self in TLJ. Then go back to his parallel universe where the good stuff happened after ROTJ. If I could come with. ;)
  4. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019
    Well, if I had'nt just sold most of my old EU books at my roommat's brother's yardsale I'd sell them to you and take that good money, then you can spend all the time with parallel reality Luke that you want:p
  5. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 18, 2017
    Thanks but I have all the books. When I said I wanted to follow him, I meant I wanted something visual. Also, that good money was for seeing that Luke kill off TLJ-Luke in a spectacular way (maybe some others, too). It was, pardon the pun, blood-money, :p
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  6. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019
  7. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 18, 2017
    Okay, now moving pictures. A show or a movie. *waits impatiently for next post* :p

    I love the books but ultimately I love adaptions more. I mean why not make at least a what-if aninmated project about it? The side that likes the ST still gets to keep the ST, the unlucky side would get something of their own. Why not have something for everyone? Currently, I`m out out luck even if they would put Luke in any new projects (that isn`t current books or comics which are of no interest to me) because he still would be ST-canon and hard no on that.

    I know you are over the character but movie-wise-speaking, he hasn`t had that much exposure.
  8. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019
    Well, apologies in advance for subjecting you to this but you asked for it[face_worried]

    (there's also the Holiday Special, but I'm not that cruel:p)

    Well, speaking for myself we already do have something for everyone - I don't really see much of a difference between books and films when it comes to enjoying what you like. That being said, whose to say they would'nt do just that at some point?

    I'm not over Luke - in fact, far from it; I'm actually more excited then ever to see more stuff feturing him becuase of the way the ST got me re-invested in the character (unless you mean over EU Luke, in which case yes, then kinda ran the character stale for me by the time Disney set everything aside)
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    Iron_lord likes this.
  9. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 18, 2017
    I know the Holiday Special. I know it`s awful. Still personally I honestly had a less bad experience watching it than TLJ.

    I`m not quite sure they would be interested in giving people options like that. IMO Disney might have a thought process like "if we keep the ST the only direct continuation, people will have to like it at some point, even if they have to force themselves to."

    Then we switched, they put me off their version completely. Sold the few new books I had because I felt they were badly written anyway. I can only hope they never put him in Mando, not even as a cameo. If just put him books or comics I can ignore those or even if they made an animated show - wide berth - but the Mando is something I`m actually enjoying because so far nothing ST has creeped into it.
    ChildOfWinds likes this.
  10. darthfettus2015

    darthfettus2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 15, 2012
    Rewind and begin from episode 1 with your grandkids in years to come
  11. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 3, 2016
    You don't interpret those events though. You outright ignore them.
  12. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019

    They've already shown a willingess to transfer characters over from EU to canon - heck, Solo and part of Rogue One were almost just a stright-up adaption of A.C Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy to the point of including plot points and even some tweaked characters. They still own the rights to the EU novels, so I can't see what would stop them from doing something with that contiuity agian.

    I mean, your joke about Legends Luke killing canon Luke aside the concept of having the two Luke's actually meet face-to-face through some sort of interdeminsonal shennigans (maybe through the World Between Worlds?) is a story I'd imagine a lot of writers would find very tempting to pen.

    Oh! Oh! I know - canon Luke, Ben Solo and the canon NR/NJO have to team up with Legends Luke, Jacen Solo and the Legends NR/NJO to combat an pan demensional threat from Waru and the Charon! See guys, it's not that hard, let's stop arguing and start imagining fun storylines.

    That would seem like a pretty odd view for them to have, considering peaple already like it and their not going to be making any more money from it since their done with those three films.

    "Oh man, I'm really enjoying the Mandalorian. At least I don't have to think about how bad Luke was in the ST...wait, whose that guy coming towards Din?"

    With the way this world is going I don't think any of us are going to have grandkids...[face_worried]

    No, I know they happened - I've seen ROTJ like a billion times. I just don't view them as having contributed to Luke's actions (or at least, contributed them in a major way worth noting) towards Vader like you do.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  13. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 3, 2016
    Except they literally had everything to do with it. Otherwise, they would have just cut out everything from when Luke and Vader were next to the throne and to where Vader threatened Leia. The fact that Luke is in a situation in which he is gambling with his own life is a major part of that sequence's drama and a large part of why he gets to the verge of snapping. Pretending as if it had nothing to do with his actions is tantamount to outright ignoring that element.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    2Cleva, Darth PJ and ChildOfWinds like this.
  14. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019
    Luke attacked Vader becuase Vader threatened Leia (and earlier he made an attempt to kill Palpatine in cold blood out of simple fustration for having no power to save the Rebel fleet). He did'nt care about his own life and his life being in danger had nothing do with his assualt on his father - it was all rage over an implied threat agianst a single person, and yet again if he can actually attempt and nearly suceed in killing his conflicted father over an implied, non-immedate threat agianst a single person, then from my POV I find it perfectly believable that he would simply think about killing his unconflicted nephew becuase of a seemingly much larger implied, non-immedate threat agianst many peaple.

    I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but I've explained my perspective several times now and frankly I don't think it's all that hard to understand where I'm coming from or the logic behind the way I view the incident on the DS. Different peaple interprete the same scenes different ways becuase they have differing perspectives and mindsets, it happens all the time regarding cinema so I don't see what the big deal is here.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  15. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 3, 2016
    Your idea of what a non-implied threat is in this context given the kind of person Vader is and the fact that Leia is literally fighting in the battle on the moon itself is fundamentally flawed. Your idea of a situation in which Luke is fighting two of the deadliest individuals in the galaxy being even remotely comparable to a situation in which he is contemplating murdering his nephew in his sleep is fundamentally flawed. His life being at incredible risk as a result of all this somehow not being a factor is fundamentally flawed. The idea that he still wouldn't kill his father after all he has actually done but would contemplate killing his nephew at that point is fundamentally flawed. Your perspective that his attempt to kill Palpatine as if he's just this poor unarmed man who can't defend himself is fundamentally flawed. The problem is that your perspective omits so much crucial context that I have repeatedly stated and yet you're over here acting as if it's just perfectly reasonable. Maybe if you were the slightest bit self-aware of this fact, I might find it more tolerable but that's clearly not the case.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  16. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    May 18, 2017
    That's where I have trouble. Vader is totally capable of carrying out that threat. It's not vague. Leia is directly below them. Vader just caught Leia twice in 2 movies.
  17. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 3, 2016
    It's not even just Leia either. He had every friend of Luke's at his mercy on Bespin and he killed one of his original friends that he knew (Biggs) during the Battle of Yavin. And K2 is seriously out here trying to insult my intelligence by saying that Vader couldn't carry out what he threatened to do.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    2Cleva likes this.
  18. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019
    Vader's not on the moon. He's on the Death Star, and Luke did'nt attack Vader becuase Leia was currently in danger, he attacked her becuase of a very specific threat that had yet to manivest.

    Maybe because - as I've said repeatedly - I don't look at it as Luke fighting two of the deadlist individuals alive, I see it as Luke flipping out on his dad over a threat to one person Vader had no way of carrying through right away vs Luke breifly considering killing his nephew over a threat against multipule peaple.

    Luke did'nt attack Vader becuase his life was at risk, though. He clearly did'nt give a crap about it so why should I consider it a factor.

    He did'nt attack Vader becuase of all he had done, though, he attacked him becuase he threatened Leia.

    That's not what I said, but good job putting words in my mouth.

    I mean, I'm glad your here to tell me how my freaking opinion is "fundementally flawed" just becuase my personal perspective of a scene in fantasy film does'nt line up with your own opinion and personal perspective.
    Thank you for enlightening me and showing me how wrong I was to think differently then you, I don't know what I would have done had not come along and "proved" to me how I erred from the one true path that is the specific way you view things:rolleyes:

    Dude, settle down. Nobody is trying to insult your intelligence and I never said Vader was incapable of what he threatened to do, I said it was an implied threat that Vader had no way of carrying through with at that time, though I probobly should have said "currently had no way of carrying through with."

    I don't recall Vader being able to teleport.

    Yes, obviously he can carry through with the threat eventually, but not ATM, ergo it's currently only implied (not to mention the threat always struck me as pretty weak, very blaize and IMO not worthy flipping out over considering everything else Vader's done) and assuming everything goes to plan Vader will be dead before he can do anything. That's what I'm saying.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
    Iron_lord likes this.
  19. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    May 18, 2017
    Edit: forget it.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  20. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 3, 2016
    It's not because of the fact that it doesn't line up with mine. It's because the actual claims you're making are completely inane.

    I'm aware of that. The problem is that if his battle is lost, either by turning to the Dark Side himself or by perishing in battle against the two of them, then the Rebels don't stand much of a chance either. His gambit as well as the battle on Endor itself is an incredible risk. Meaning that his family and friend's lives are also at risk. So, Luke will understandably lash out at his father who is also one of the most dangerous people in the galaxy. Who had also captured Leia twice before. Meaning that it's a threat that he can definitely back up.

    Again, the way you're framing these two scenarios are entirely incongruous since you seem to be treating the latter with all the context provided but simply refuse to provide that same treatment to the former. If anything, Ben's "threat" against multiple people is much more vague and implied than Vader's considering that Vader has actually tortured and captured his friends before, killed one of them during the battle of Yavin and wiped the floor with him in one of the most scarring duels he had ever fought on Bespin. Vader's much more stated threat is far less vague and generally something he can probably back up. There's a difference between Luke finding Ben's dark thoughts while invading his mind in his sleep and one of the deadliest killers in the entire galaxy outright telling you that he will do something to your loved ones while in a duel with him. The fact that I even have to explain this to you is baffling.

    The difference is entirely immaterial considering all the context you are blatantly omitting/ignoring/not thinking is relevant/however you want to say it.
    PendragonM, 2Cleva and Samuel Vimes like this.
  21. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 31, 2013
    Exactly that. ROTJ has actual drama and tension, which is created by the moral dilema Luke is placed in. We, the audience, know that Luke is teetering on the edge. Palpatine and Vader are using everything in their arsenal to make him succumb. That Luke gives into his anger is a mistake, but we the audience, are right there with him.

    Conversely, the ST (in this case TLJ), never creates a wider context believable enough for the audience to understand Luke' moral dilemma re. Ben. We (the audience) know that 'always in motion is the future' and that Luke was able to save his father (Darth Vader). Logic also tells us that Luke should have matured, as a Jedi over the past 20/30 years, and wouldn't make the same mistakes as before e.g. giving into anger etc. That TLJ doesn't apply any context, that Johnson doesn't seem cognisant (or interested) of what happened in ROTJ, and that there doesn't seem to be any internal logic shaping character motivation, strips any potential drama/peril out of Luke's confrontation with Ben.
  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Because you are ignoring/not considering/dismissing a massive part of the scene, what has happened before, what is actually happening, Luke's state of mind and so on.

    1) Luke's friends and allies are actually dying as this is going on, Not important!
    2) The rebels are getting crushed and thus dooming the galaxy to further rule by the Empire. Does not matter!
    3) Luke has has his hopes continually crushed, like reaching his father, that the rebels will destroy the DS2 etc. Irrelevant!
    4) Luke has had his thoughts probed by both Palpatine and Vader. Does not count!
    5) Luke has already let his anger boil over once before. Meaningless!

    And so on.
    That is why I and others have trouble understanding your argument because you compare two scenes but remove 90% of the context of one scene but not the other. Thus making your comparison flawed.

    Said "explanation" makes no sense based on the character and his past history.

    You compared Luke in the OT with pre-turn Anakin, also in the OT. And you argued that people had issues with how Anakin was in the PT and then said that people having issues with Luke in TLJ and these were pretty much the same thing.

    My counter is that in the OT Luke is a far more developed and fleshed out character than pre-turn Anakin.
    The latter is not quite a blank slate but we know little of him. Luke is anything but a blank slate.
    So who and what Luke was after RotJ was quite clear.

    Which creates a conflict with TFA, where Ben/Kylo was conflicted.

    My main issue with Luke is not that he had a sudden dark urge, I just don't think it is anywhere near as comparable to the DS2 scene as you argue.

    My main issue with Luke is that right after this scene, he totally gave up on everything.
    This darkness beyond anything he had imagined, he was not going to do anything about that.
    That lots of people would die, he did not care.
    Any responsibility he might have had or caring about his friends and loved ones, not important, he will do nothing.
    So did he think that all this would just go away if he ignored it long enough?

    Luke made no attempt to do anything, try to correct his mistake, all he wanted to do was to go away and wait for death.
    If the galaxy suffers, that is not his problem.
    His caring, his compassion, his own experience with turning someone back from the dark side. All tossed aside just to get this bitter, broken Luke.

    It is not head-canon, head-canon is trying to make up an explanation when the film does not.
    How can Leia remember Padme when Padme died right after Leia was born?
    There are plenty of head-canon explanations.
    Bail showed Leia pictures of Padme and told her things.
    Leia is thinking of Bail's first wife.

    What I wrote was an example of what I would consider a start to explain why Luke is the way he is in TLJ.
    And thus to explain why I find the "explanation" in the film lacking.
    So I am not just saying "This bit is bad." I am trying to explain WHY I think it is bad.

    And RJ clearly had other ideas and he made a film. That was never under discussion so I don't know you brought it up. People are discussing whether or not they feel the film works within the larger context of the other films.

    Selling out her friends to the Vidiians who would then harvest their organs, that is very evil.

    As I said above, if you think that his friends being killed and the rebellion destroyed as this is happening has nothing to do with how Luke feels then sorry, you are ignoring context.

    Fear and hopelessness can be very powerful and destructive emotions.
    Another Trek example, towards the end of Chain of Command, Madred, tells Picard that the invasion was a success, all hope is lost and he will never be free. But then he offers an out, a life of some comfort.
    Just say that there are five lights.
    And Picard was on the verge of saying it. Not just to end this but that he could even see five lights.
    I think the Army Manual calls it the Futility approach. To make the target think that it is useless to resist.

    That is why Palpatine does this. He makes Luke watch as all his hopes are crushed and his fear of his friends dying. And Vader even says "It is pointless to resist, son."

    Another thing you don't consider, Luke thinks that turning to the dark side is a fate worse than death.
    he showed this in ESB, he said as much to Vader on Endor. "I will not turn, then you will be forced to kill me."
    And here is Vader threatening to turn Leia, which is worse than killing her in Luke's view.
    Plus, take the whole ordeal that Luke is going through, it is very unpleasant and I doubt Luke would wish it on anyone. And here is Vader saying he will do to Leia what has been done to Luke.
    Plus Luke has failed to keep Leia a secret, something that Obi-Wan said was important.

    And this interpretation also does not consider other events from the film.
    The Jabba scenes, Jabba made threats against Luke and his friends, he kept Leia as a slave and he was going to execute Luke and his friends in a very slow and horrible way. And yet Luke kept calm, he did not go kill crazy or flip out. He even tried to reason with Jabba at the very end.
    So Luke is quite capable of hearing threats and not loosing it.
    That he did on the DS2 was due to prolonged stress and strain and eventually he snapped.

    And you are also arguing that Luke learned nothing from his ordeal on the DS2.
    That he threw his lightsaber away rather than take a life, that meant nothing.
    That he passed the test and became a Jedi, not important and Luke is just as unhinged and crazy afterwards.

    What plan was this?
    That the rebels attack and destroy the DS2?
    Luke had seen that this was all a trap. Han and Leia were going to be met with a legion of troops.
    The rebel fleet was met with a big fleet of ISD plus an operational Death Star.
    As far as Luke knows, that plan has failed. the DS2 won't get destroyed and his friends will all die or be take captive and there is nothing he can do about it.
    So no, Vader will not die, unless Luke kills him and thus turning evil.
    Vader is thus totally capable of acting on his threat. Leia could have been taken prisoner already and Vader could have her brought up in about 15 minutes.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  23. Alliyah Skywalker

    Alliyah Skywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 18, 2017
    Sure, they are cannibalizing it but that's a different thing and actually makes it way less likely they would ever do Legends for real in a show or (TV) movie form.

    The transfered versions on the other hand just add insult to injury for me because I liked them as specific characters in specific settings.

    If I just want to read it, I'm sure there are fanfics out there.

    I mean forcing people who are not into it to it ( and to tie-ins, merch, future works) because they will have no other options.

    Honestly, yes. As soon as I sniff the ST in the show, I would have to drop it. Because then I can no longer make it work within Legends continuity. And Luke is a no-go at this point.

    Also, yes, Mando was somewhat of a balm after ST. So you jest but "at least I don’t have to think about how bad... was in the ST" WAS a part of the viewing process for me. And a good one, too.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
    2Cleva and Darth PJ like this.
  24. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 21, 2019
    They don't seem that inane to me; frankly it just seems like we view the context of the scene in question in different ways and for some reason my veiw of it not aligning with yours is a big no-no[face_shame_on_you] for whatever reason (even though I certainly don't have an issue with you viewing the scene the way you do even though I don't agree with the perspective).

    Well, since I don't think there's any reason to assume Ben was'nt also capable of backing up his threats (since we know he was ultimatly able to become what Luke foresaw him becoming) then I don't really see the problem; both peaple were non-immedate, but serious, threats, the difference to me is just that Vader was only threatening one person and Ben was threatening multipule peaple.

    Again, I'm sooo sorry I don't view the films the same way you did:rolleyes:.

    Your right - I think the former would be more shocking, becuase not only is it your nephew you've known for years relative to your father whose essentially a stranger, but your actually witnessing the effects of the threat, relative to just hearing a threat being made.

    Okay, so why do I have to view the context the same why you do? Why does my perspective and opinion have to align with yours lest it be considered "immaterial?" Why is your opinion/perspective more importent then mine and "right" as opposed to being "wrong?"

    Not exactly; IMO it seems equally as logical to me that Luke could have grown arrogant, overconfident and self-assured over the years as his legend grew and got to his head and his sucesses game to greatly outnumber his faliures.

    Or maybe Johnson just came away from ROTJ with a different view and perspective on the character then you did?

    1) not relevent to why he attack Vader. If it was he would have flipped out on him earlier.
    2) not relevent to why he attacked Vader - relevent to why he attacked Palpatine, but not Vader - becuase agian, if it was he would have fipped out on him earlier.
    3) same as above; relevent to why he attacked Palpatine, but not Vader.
    4) not relevent to why he attacked Vader (or Palpatine) - he attacked him becuase Leia was in danger, not becuase he was mentally violated.
    5) 100% not meaningless and actually part of my point - as of TLJ we've already seen twice that Luke can let his anger get the better of him and lead him to making attempts to kill peaple, so from my perspective it's totally in character for him to at least just *think* about *maybe* killing Ben.

    [face_sigh][face_sigh][face_sigh][face_sigh]Okay, I don't really know how to say this any clearer becuase I've already said it multipule times and none of you guys seem to understand, so apologies in advance...


    Seriusly guys, I don't want to have to yell but I really don't know how many different ways I have to say the same thing for it to get across; it's not a matter of removing context, it's a matter of viewing the context differently.

    To you. I disagree.

    No, who some peaple assume Luke would become after ROTJ was quite clear to those peaple, becuase they took the context they viewed the OT under and their personal perceptions of the character and built a headcanon of that were he only grew wiser, did'nt fail and successfuly restored the Jedi Order and whatever else. Other fans - including a certain Rain Johnson - saw a different context and had different personal perceptions for what might happen, however, and every is entitled to view a fictional universe and the fictional peaple within it differently.

    No it does'nt, becuase the flashback from TLJ takes place six years before TFA.

    No, he thought if he intervened he would only make things worse - in his depression over his failure and despair over the consqences of Ben's fall he came to mistakenly see the Jedi as the cause of the galaxy's problems, not the solution, and believed further interference would only worsen things since, after all, from his perspective he created the problem to begin with.

    And they explain why it was tossed aside. Now, maybe you don't like the explanation or don't think its sufficent, but the movie laid out its reasoning quite clearly. making up an explanation for what Luke will do after ROTJ and how his character will evolve/what his life experiences will be in those years?

    No I'm not ingoring context, becuase I DON'T THINK LUKE'S FRIENDS BEING KILLED WAS THE REASON HE ATTACKED VADER. The film - IMO quite clearly but peaple are entitled to view it different ways - presents Luke as attacking Vader soley becuase Vader threatened Leia.

    Just Leia, full stop; not becuase they were fighting and Luke's life was in danger, not becuase Leia and Luke's other friends were possibly already in danger on the moon below, not becuase the Rebel fleet was surrounded. JUST LEIA. The context in which I view the scene is that Vader was looking for the right button to push to get a reaction from the until-then-stoic Luke and he found the one thing that was going to set Luke off - threatening harm to his sister in even a minor way; it's Luke beserk button - am I finally being clear to you guys in how I see this?

    That's your perspective on the character. Not mine.

    No I'm not.

    See I don't - and never have - thought that Luke "passed the test" - becuase "the test" is everlasting for a Jedi's entire life; the dark side and it's pull - the call to give in to your base emotions and the possibility of slipping up - is always their and always will be. You don't just have one experience were you risk tempation and then never feel it agian or suddenly gain a +50 immunity to Dark Side allure.

    Even a wise, powerful Jedi Master like Windu was suspitable to slipping up and giving into the urge to kill a man "for the greater good" after all, even though he had far more experience and knowledge then Luke did in ROTJ.

    I think you may be missing the point of this thread;)

    I don't think their "forcing" anyone to like or consume what their making; if peaple don't like it and don't want to buy it that's up to them and nobody else.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  25. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 31, 2013
    What you state isn't based on logic though... it's head canon. There's nothing in ROTJ to suggest that Luke would be an 'arrogant' or 'over-confident' man post ROTJ (especially given that he calls out the Emperor's 'over-confidence' in ROTJ). If he were to be those things, then it should have been baked into the ST, but it wasn't. Far from it. Conversely, Luke being pragmatic, having humility, and being less emotional in his middle age, would be an organic and logical progression of what's presented in ROTJ. That's why the characterisation in TLJ does't really seem to have a basis in logic. Rather, it's Johnson just trying to deconstruct a character in order to be controversial (that's may take on it anyway).

    It should be noted that I don't have an issue with a writer/filmmaker doing a right hand turn to break expectations, but in order for it to be successful, the reasons for what breaks a 'hero' need to be a significant and more substantial part of the story (especially when we're talking about Luke Skywalker within Star Wars). Johnson never provides that. It's an aside, that's presented in flashbacks and recollections. Furthermore, Luke's decision to get back 'in the fight' seems to be paper thin (is it because he found out Han Solo had died? Is it because Rey gives him a kicking? etc.), and his 'mini' redemption kind of seems incongruous with his reasoning to cut himself off from the force in the first place. All of this is why Luke's characterisation never rings true (IMHO).

    Clearly he did. But given the amount of contention within fandom, and the falling figures after TLJ, it suggests that maybe Johnson's perspective didn't jive with general audiences.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020