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ST How do you build off the Sequel Trilogy moving forward

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Jid123Sheeve, Jul 9, 2020.

  1. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    There's some cross over for sure (which can be subjective)... but I'd say that any stories that focus primarily on OT characters, situations and concepts are OT era stories (that includes New Republic stories). But as soon as ST concepts/characters are introduced e.g. the resistance, First Order, Snoke etc. then it becomes ST era. If Disney/Lucasfilm decide to set a story the day after ROTJ featuring Snoke, Maz and the Knights of Ren, it will become a lot more complex...yikes... but I'd posit that Disney/Lucasfilm will want to reset, and will be less inclined to create new stories involving Snoke, Holdo and Phasma etc. So where there are these 'pockets' between the OT and ST, they will be more inclined to fill them with characters such at the Mandalorian, Ahsoka or the Bad Batch etc. etc. and move away from the ST that way.
     
  2. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Well, firstly we don't see the full extent of the Lars property at any point as far as I know - we see the house and some nearby vapirators (the hay fields, if you will). I live in an area with several large working farms (I.E farms that operate as farms) and the animals are rarely kept near the to the house for obvious reasons (also on Tatooine the enclosures would likely be underground to protect them agianst the elements and sand peaple, so even if we were in the area of them it's likely we would'nt see them)

    Secondly Luke could have lent a hand on a neighbors farm from time to time were they did keep such animals - he clearly knows how to milk in TLJ and the most logical and likely place for him to have learned that is during his childhood as a farmer.

    It's not a matter of prefrences, it's a matter of their being no reason to assume or think that Star Wars is, will be or should be limited to just films and shows - heck, the vast majority of Star Wars has always been in printed media, so why would that chance now?

    Everyone in the FO was shocked that Finn abandoned them and Finn himself was shocked that Jannah and the others existed. So yes, it's clearly an insignificant issue. On top of the vast majority of the troopers we are shown seem both perfectly happy with their jobs and show nothing but contempt for Finn for defecting, so that supports it as well - in TFA it's indicated that non-conformity is an issue that appears from time to time, but it's treated as something that's easily dealt with.

    Let me ask you a question - this great stormtrooper rebellion you want to see dipicted? When would it have occured, and why is it never mentioned anywhere or is something that Finn or Jannah know about? If it had occured prior to TFA then surely Hux, Kylo and Phasma would have mentioned it when discussing Finn's defection, and if it happened afterwards then Finn would'nt think he was the only trooper to defect.

    Becuase we know Imperial stormtroopers are recruits with free will who are'nt brainwashed to be blindly loyal to the Empire. By comparison FO Stormtroopers might as well be battle droids.

    Also we know for a fact that plenty of Jedi have fallen to the Dark Side - that's were the Sith came from originally, after all - so Anakin is hardly an outlier. FO stormtroopers defecting in such large numbers not only conflicts with the lore surrounding them but also conflicts directly with the events of the films, unless it occurs after TROS.

    Well you'd best hope there is, becuase like it or not chances are that's what the majority of works set between the OT and the ST and after the ST are going to be.

    I was speculating using precident established by the old canon.

    No, you misunderstand - a FO spartacus story would be really interesting, it's just highly unlikely to occur given what we've been told and shown about the FO's stormtroopers, becuase as far as we known Finn and Jannah's groups are abnormal outliers.

    "ST Era" is not, as far as I'm aware of, a term used in an offical capicity, but rather the term used is "New Republic Era," and that era starts shortly after ROTJ and contiues on to the current point were TROS leaves off, so as far as the peaple making the stuff are concerned it's all one era.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  3. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
  4. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Taking that line to mean Luke does'nt know how to farm is A) missing the point of what Beru is saying and B) is needless literal.

    She's saying he's not meant for the life of a farmer, not that he can't farm or does'nt know how to, lol.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  5. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    You're arguing a point not being contested. I'm talking about films and TV specifically... within the wider context of a Lucasfilm strategy of creating/releasing more SW content for cinema and television. If you think it's a win for the ST that we may get a comic/book, set within that period, all power to you... or if you believe they are making new shows/films within the ST timeline, then that's something else.

    I think you're actually highlighting the woeful writing and characterisation of the ST (IMO). That Finn and Jannah are stormtroopers that went AWOL, but that those plot points/threads don't go anywhere, and are not developed in any meaningful way, makes their characterisation really poor. What was their point of being stormtroopers, other than as a plot convenience to have FO knowledge? All I'm doing is suggesting a story set within the ST timeline that could better contexualise/develop the films (certainly an element that had potential but didn't go anywhere). In my opinion, it's an opportunity to show something not previously done in Star Wars. But it's obviously all hypothetical anyway.

    It's up to the writers to use their imagination isn't it? Do you think slaves in the provinces outside of Italy, in 73 BC, knew all the detail of the slave revolt in Italy? No. It would have been suppressed at the time.

    But they are not 'battledroids', as we have the example of Finn and Jannah... and aren't Jannah's comrades at arms also ex stormtroopers? So if any trilogy of SW films has established stormtroopers as being closer to 'slaves', in terms of the organisational structure/hierarchy, and if any trilogy of SW films has established stormtroopers defecting/going AWOL, it's the ST and certainly not the OT/PT.

    Anakin and Dooku are certainly 'outliers', as you'd define them, in their respective timelines. Isn't the canonical number to have left the Jedi order only 20 (the 'Lost 20')? So Dooku is only one of twenty masters out of all the thousands of Jedi masters. Dooku and Anakin are the only Jedi (other than Ventress I suppose) to have fallen to the darkside in what? A thousand years or so? It's not common place. They would be outliers as you describe them.

    I see no evidence to suggest what you're proposing. Indeed, most rumour and speculation seems to suggest that Disney don't want to touch the ST at all. What are you hearing about an ST show/live action film? Stories set directly after ROTJ is something different, in my opinion, and I'd be interested in that. But I was talking about the ST specifically... its characters and concepts.

    As was I. Palpatine saved himself from falling down the abyss and the ensuing explosion of the Death Star. If he can plan to survive that, in some wizzy Sith sorcery way, I'm pretty sure he can plan to survive anything else... especially as he said "I've been dead before", or words to that effect. So he's got form right? And to go back to the original point, that's part of the issue (IMHO) i.e. writers going 'tadaa' to conjure characters back into existence, rather than it being integral to the plot. It has a tendency to seriously undermine the drama and it certainly undermines my suspension of disbelief.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  6. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I think there making all four - comics, books, shows and films (plus games), I just don't think it's a loss if every era does'nt have a film or televised work.

    IMO it's less "woeful writing" and more that you and some peaple really, really wanted the stormtrooper revolt storyline and are now looking for someone to take it out on, even though the films never promised you anything of the sort.

    And I'm not trying to rain on your parade, I'm just pointing out that the lore that's been established - along with what the films tell us - make it highly unlikely for such a storyline to occur unless it's after the ST (and even then you'd have to deal with why the troopers were by-and-by largely fine with what they were doing before that point).

    Do you think the proconsuls did'nt know about it? Becuase if their was a revolt prior to TFA Hux, Kylo and Phasma would have known about it, rather then be suprised by Finn being able to defect - heck, Company 77 already does'nt make sense becuase of that - not mention that if such a massive revolt happened why would the FO keep using brainwashed slave soldiers and be so confident in the process that had just?

    We also have examples of droids overcoming their core programming and starting to think more independently and "errently" (R2, for instance). Really I don't see much difference in theory and pratice between the droids programming and the FO stormtroopers conditioning and memory wipes and reconditioning.

    The Lost 20 are'nt all Jedi to have left the order, just the masters. I'm not sure why we'd limit it to just their respective timeline, though, that just seems like a coy way of dismissing my point that plenty of Jedi must have left the order since the original Sith were once Jedi and fought a war agianst the Order.

    I'm not talking about shows and films, I said "most works" and most works are not going to be films.

    I can't see any reason why Disney/LFL would want to leave such fertile ground untouched.

    He died while falling down the shaft. It was his life-essense that survived and his body is a clone (the latter two bits of information are'nt in the film but the former is, as he stright-up says he died).

    Fair enough. All I was doing was pointing out precident for what their explanation for why he stayed dead this time might be.

    Currently, as far as we know, Palpatine is dead and not coming back. Now, maybe they'll change that and he'll return again or maybe not, who knows (I certainly would'nt object to anouther return if done right - he can be like the Sauron of the GFFA and that could lead to interesting stories IMO).
     
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  7. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Then we’re in agreement, as I certainly don’t see it as a loss... but I think some will.

    Not even close. You can’t pass off pointless plot points, that are dropped or not developed, as being the fault of the audience. That excuse could literally be used to refute any critique of any film.


    I’m sorry, but it’s not a very strong argument to make I.e. that the notion of a stormtrooper insurgence/uprising would be better suited to the PT or OT, when literally the only stormtroopers we’ve seem in films ever question their actions or question who they are serving, are in the ST. You don’t have to like the idea, but it’s something that the ST itself dangles as a thread.



    Rome would have tried to suppress any news about the slave revolt in 73BC, primarily because they were both humiliated by the success of Spartacus and concerned that the revolt could spread. And the Spartacus comparison is pertinent to your question, as Rome neither got rid of slaves or gladiators during that period, they were just treated more harshly, in order to instil an even greater sense of fear. Regarding the First Order and whether Phasma and Hux would know. It’s totally hypothetical so it doesn’t really matter. But, hypothetically, that they knew or that they didn’t, would neither create a plot hole in the ST or within any new story. It would be down to the writers to make it work, and I’d posit it would be relatively easy to write around... either by setting it prior to the events of TROS or simply by making it small scale. I mean, it doesn’t have to be the entire FO army does it? It could just be a squadron in the back of beyond. It could be a FO deserters prison break story. There’s numerous ways one could write it without necessitating it already being a significant plot point in the ST.



    I’m not really sure what you’re stating? The ST films don’t try and equate stormtroopers with droids. If anything, they try and humanise them through Finn and Jannah. They are the first stormtroopers in live action films to be seen without their helmets.



    I’m pretty sure I stated the lost 20 were masters... In terms of canon, how many Jedi have become Sith? There are no more Jedi turned Sith in the PT than there are stormtroopers turned defectors in the ST. Ergo, if you see Finn and Jannah as ‘outliers’, then so are Anakin and Dooku.



    And I was not talking about games and comics.:)


    In terms of the ST timeline specifically? Primarily because it’s scorched earth and toxic for many fans. But hey, that’s just my opinion.

    That is fair enough, but as I mentioned, when the writers establish a precedent for escaping certain death, it undermines the sense of finality, and as a consequence, it undermines the quest/challenge of the protagonists. I’m not sure Ian McDiarmid will ever return as Palpatine, but I’m sure the character will return in some form or other.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  8. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    The plot point never existed to begin with, though, so there was nothing to drop.

    I never said I did'nt like the idea, all I said was Finn, Jannah and her squad are treated as outliers so it would be unlikely for such a story to feature FO stormtroopers. Clone Troopers and Imperial Stormtroopers would suit it far better, since their not brainwashed.

    And the films never dangled it as a thread.

    The would'nt have hid it from their leaders, though.

    Rome did'nt use an army made up of slaves though; a FO stormtrooper revolt would cause them to re-asses their militery policy of using brainwashed abductees (Kylo suggests as much just becuase of one defector, so can you imagine how they would react if it was an army of them?).

    If it's before TFA it would definantly be a plot hole, even if they did a good job covering it up, and after makes strains credility IMO becuase even if their trying to hide it would be unlikely for it to escape the Resistence's attention unless it was very small and put down quickly (plus it would be strange that they still though the abducting/brainwashing combo was a good idea in TROS if they just suffered a revolt that proved it did'nt work).

    I'm saying exactly what I wrote - given the way their presented I don't see much fundemntal difference in theory or pratice between a droids programming and the FO stormtroopers conditioning and memory wipes and reconditioning; at the end of the day their essentially the same thing, just one is applied to machines and the other to organics.

    A lot, given that the first Sith were Jedi and they fought a war agianst the Jedi.

    By comparison as far as we know Finn, Jannah and Company 77 are the only FO stormtroopers to rebel agianst their masters.

    Well I was (in part), so I don't see the point of responding to my statement as if I was'nt as you did.

    It's "some" fans, not "many" fans. This might shock you to know, PJ, but plenty of peaple like the ST just fine.

    And the PT was "scorched earth" and "toxic" for "many" fans but that did'nt stop them from doing that era to death.

    I suppose, but it can be pulled off if done right.
     
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Sparta's a better example - most of the army were slave helots, and only a small portion were free Spartans. And they had regular revolts, and regularly put them down without giving up on the use of helot soldiers.
     
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  10. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Can there be a trilogy that doesn't have Sith as villains?
     
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  11. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    *tries to resist urge to bring up the Yuuzhan Vong*
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  12. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 21, 2019
    The spartans lived in ancient times, while the First Order exists in a space age society with guns, armored vehicles (this both makes the revolters capable of more damage and also means they'd need to be far better and more extensively trained then helots would be, both of which makes a rebellion extra dangerous) and advanced technologies including instantanous communication (meaning, of course, that word of the rebellion is harder to supress and can spread much faster, as well as the fact that the rebels coordinate with each very well) - the helot revolts were not nearly as dangerous to the Spartan State as stormtrooper revolt would be to the FO.

    Not only that but helots were not traditional slaves - they were more akin to serfs in the manner they lived and were treated/veiws.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    You might find this essay of interest:

    https://acoup.blog/2019/08/23/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-ii-spartan-equality/

    as well as the others in that series.

    Key part:

    First, let us dispense with the argument, sometimes offered, that the helots were more like medieval serfs than slaves as we understand the ideas and thus not really slaves – this is nonsense. Helots seem to have been able to own moveable property (money, clothing etc), but in fact this is true of many ancient slaves, including Roman ones (the Roman’s called this quasi-property peculium, which also applied to the property of children and even many women who were under the legal power (potestas) of another). Owning small amounts of moveable property was not rare among ancient non-free individuals (or, for that matter, other forms of slavery).

    No, what legally separated helots from douloi (chattel slaves in most Greek societies) was that they were slaves of the Spartan state rather than of individual Spartans – this had nothing to do with any sense of greater freedom they might have had. Indeed, Plutarch relates the saying that “in Sparta the free man is more free than anywhere else in the world, and the slave more a slave” (Plut. Lyc. 28.5). He can only be referring to the helots here. Indeed, Plutarch’s statement is telling – the helots were treated poorly by the standards of ancient chattel slavery, which is, I must stress, an incredibly low bar. Ancient societies treated enslaved people absolutely horribly and yet somehow the helot lot was commonly thought worse.

    But the final word on if we should consider the helots fully non-free is in their sanctity of person: they had none, at all, whatsoever. Every year, in autumn by ritual, the five Spartan magistrates known as the ephors (next week) declared war between Sparta and the helots – Sparta essentially declares war on part of itself – so that any spartiate might kill any helot without legal or religious repercussions (Plut. Lyc. 28.4; note also Hdt. 4.146.2). Isocrates – admittedly a decidedly anti-Spartan voice – notes that it was a religious, if not legal, infraction to kill slaves everywhere in Greece except Sparta (Isoc. 12.181). As a matter of Athenian law, killing a slave was still murder (the same is true in Roman law). One assumes these rules were often ignored by slave-holders of course – we know that many such laws in the American South were routinely flouted. Slavery is, after all, a brutal and inhuman institution by its very nature. The absence of any taboo – legal or religious – against the killing of helots marks the institution as uncommonly brutal not merely by Greek standards, but by world-historical standards.


    We may safely conclude that the helots were not only enslaved persons, but that of all slaves, they had some of the fewest protections – effectively none, not even protections in-name-only.


    Summary of whole essay series - Sparta's reputation for awesomeness receives massive takedown.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
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  14. godisawesome

    godisawesome Retired Mod of the Sequel Campaign star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    As a guy who teaches at a school with a Spartan mascot, I did find myself pointing out how much f their reputation was over-inflated and too polished.

    Don’t get me wrong, the Athenians could be utter monsters too, and in fact it can be a bit hard to buy that the Greeks were necessarily on the “right” side of the Greco-Persian War. But the Spartans really did reflect Ares - murder and slaughter of the innocent were just as much a part of their MO as war itself.
     
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  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the final part, a point is made of how Sparta contributed the most to Persia's taking Greece into its sphere of influence:

    https://acoup.blog/2019/09/27/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vii-spartan-ends/
     
  16. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Not a stormtrooper insurgence per se. But that Finn was a stormtrooper, who deserted/defected, was a plot point. That he appeared to have friendships with other stormtroopers was implied. But none of that was developed at all. As a plot point and piece of characterisation, it was pretty much redundant.


    As per above. It was ‘dangled’, as it implied Finn’s background would have more significance than merely being a functional exposition for the FO e.g. what time they put the bins out etc. Finn’s function and characterisation within the ST is a common criticism, and it stems (IMHO) from the writers doing absolutely nothing with his background. Instead of being one of the more interesting characters, he’s one of the dullest.



    No they wouldn’t. But I’m not understanding why you believe, as a plot point, it would be something that would have to be hidden from FO leaders? That it isn’t mentioned in the ST doesn’t mean it couldn’t be written in retrospectively. Nobody mentions Inquisitors in ANH. Obi-Wan doesn’t talk about Ahsoka. Palpatine never talks about Exegol etc.



    That’s splitting hairs. The slave revolt was led by professional fighters/gladiators and swelled numbers to include domestic slaves. These were people that rich Romans kept on their properties and within their homes. And yet, there wasn’t a major shift in policy or practice. I’d suggest that given the ST takes place over what? 12 months? And given the First Order are entrenched in the process of taking over the galaxy, and trying to stop the rebels, they wouldn’t swap out their entire army overnight, as it would be logistically impossible. It’s



    As per previous reply, just because it isn’t mentioned in the ST doesn’t mean it’s a plot hole. The ST is full of gaps in logic and contrivances. I see no reason why this, or pretty much anything else, could not be retrospectively written in to create a separate story within the same timeline. As already mentioned, perhaps it’s a single unit going AWOL on the outer edge of the galaxy. Perhaps it’s a prison break of stormtrooper deserters. If one has the intelligence and wit, there are countless ways to think around the concept and make it work.


    I don’t agree... and Finn and Jannah want a word...



    The simple truth is, as far as canon is concerned, the number of Jedi who became Sith is small. Far smaller than the number you elude to. Can you name the Jedi, who’ve been mentioned IN CANON, that were Jedi who became Sith?


    That’s more stormtroopers who have rebelled ‘on screen’ than Jedi who’ve turned Sith on screen.


    There’s isn’t a single fan site, or social media platform, where the ST isn’t pilloried or criticised intensely. It’s not merely ‘some’ fans, whether you like it or not. However, I do think it’s important to recognise that there’s fans that like the ST too.


    I don’t think that’s true. Sure, there are ‘some’ fans who don’t like the PT films (I’ll use your loose interpretation of ‘some’ here), but from what I’ve seen and heard, their issues are much more about the technical implementation of the films... be it the dialogue, the performances/acting, the CGI, the overall pacing. They don’t tend to have an issue with the story, the concepts and the socio-political dynamics of the galaxy during the PT. Indeed, I have found that those who don’t like the PT films, do tend to like/love or appreciate at least, the associated stories and TCWC precisely because they never had issues with the concepts and galactic backdrop of the prequels. In comparison, the concepts underpinning the ST aren’t half as expansive or as sophisticated. And it’s why (IMHO) there are very few fans, and even less amongst those that don’t like the ST, who are interested in exploring that period further. I mean, for example, the Knights of Ren were so under-utilised in the ST, their ultimate demise so lacking, that I can’t imagine there’s much demand for them to be explored further.



    Sure, but they’ve not made it easy for themselves. I wasn’t even that resistant to bringing back Palpatine. I think it’s a derivative idea, but I was willing to see how it played out. But it was written in such a ham-fisted way that it actually hurt the film more than it helped (IMO)...
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  17. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I did'nt say the helots were'nt enslaved or treated nicely, I said they were'nt slaves in the sense that most peaple today think of slaves - and serfdom is a form of slavery (though I'm not saying they were serfs either, just that they were closer to serfs then to regular slaves).

    There are many different types of slaves, after all, and I'd definatly say that no matter what types of slaves they were helots were much less dangerous to the Spartans then the Stormtroopers were to the FO.

    No offense, but it seems like your seeming something that was'nt there.

    Well, that's definatly your humblest opinion, becuase I don't agree at all - I think he's the most interesting character to come out of the ST and the one with the most complete and well-rounded arc and character devolopment.

    The difference between the bolded and TFA in this instance is we have a scene where everyone acts all suprised that Finn broke his conditioning and went AWOL, which makes no sense if some giant revolt just happened were a bunch of peaple did that - why would they be suprised if it happens all the time?

    If the brainwashing is so bad that a massive revolt just happened then they should'nt have even gone to war with that army to begin with.

    I don't doubt it, but a massive revolt that just happened to never get brought up and just happened to not be noticed by the Resistence? I'm not buying it.

    Becuase we don't have any droids in Star Wars who overcame their core programing/devolop errent natures and gained more atonomy and free will then they were intended to have, right?
    [​IMG]
    Oh, wait...;)

    Oh really? Where is this stated?

    No, but that does'nt mean anything since we know plenty have - nice try with that "gotcha" question though, 9/10 for effort.

    And?

    Yes, and? The internet is filled with angry, toxic haters who like complaining, your point is?

    No, peaple complained about everything - I'm not saying either trilogy is deviod of legit flaws to critique, but for the most part the "complaints" peaple leveled at both the PT and the ST were just winey hate and anger over Lucas making narrative choices they did'nt agree with; you can copy past the vast majority of the complaints you see about the ST replace a couple of words ("KK/Abrams/Johnson" with "Lucas" and "Luke" with "Vader") and it will fit perfectly in a lot of cases.

    Nobody hates Star Wars like Star Wars fans.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  18. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Only because they never revolted all at once. They vastly outnumbered the Spartans, and were kept in line through terror.

    The Spartans actually had to get help from the Athenians to put down some of these revolts - they ended up alienating the Athenians.

    https://acoup.blog/2019/09/27/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-vii-spartan-ends/

    In 461, Spartan arrogance towards an Athenian military expedition sent to help Sparta against a helot revolt utterly discredited the pro-Sparta political voices at Athens and in turn set the two states on a collision course. Sparta had ejected the friendly army so roughly that it had created an outrage in Athens.


    The line between "serf" and "agricultural slave" might be a bit fuzzy at times, but the fact that the helots were so oppressed as to shock even ancient world slaveowners, makes "agricultural slave" a bit more accurate IMO.

    And the fact that they were so numerous and were armed and used as soldiers and for logistics in Sparta's wars, makes them a good example of "Revolts didn't stop the Spartans from arming them" and "A nation with an army of slaves".
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  19. K2771991

    K2771991 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Fair enough - but my point is that the FO Stormtoopers would have acess to advanced weapons, extensive training and the ability to cooridinate on a much larger scale and far quicker then the helots would have ever hoped to be; a spear or sling and only kill on man, but a thermal detonator can destroy an entire room, while a runner can take hours or even days to reach his destination with a message as opposed to the holonet which can communicate instantly.

    Not to mention the helots were just slaves; FO Stormtoopers are brainwashed, indocrinated fanatics raised from childhood to support the FO, be loyal to it and think it's in the right. Their not conscripts who don't want to be there - most of them geniunely belive they "want" to fight for the FO becuase they've been convinced it's "right" by a lifetime of conditioning - heck, if I recall correctly in Before the Awakening Finn is the only stormtrooper to be bothered by the suffering of some alien miners, the others simply don't care becuase of how brainwashed they are; Finn's supposed to be special and unique becuase he had the free will to question things and go rogue, and suddently he starts becoming a lot less special - and his defection becomes far less of a big deal or a suprise - if this happens all the time or on large scale.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It's true that the FO stormtroopers have more in common with the free Spartans in some ways - both are indoctrinated very young, both have no other job besides soldiering (and military-related chores).

    FO taking heavily after Sparta would fit - but stormtroopers fill a different niche than helots. The helot class for the FO would be the populations of conquered worlds, like Rose's.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  21. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    What? Finn running off from the FO and joining the resistance ‘isn’t there’? Jannah and her comrades in arms, that were stormtroopers, and are seen riding horses on top of a star destroyer ‘isn’t there’? If you think it ‘isn’t there’, I’m embarrassed to say, but I think I may have paid more attention to the ST than you did. ;)

    I wouldn’t expect you to agree... but perhaps a bit more acknowledgment that it was an issue for those that don’t like the ST... and is often a criticism cited on these boards when discussing the character.[:D]

    And yet nothing, absolutely nothing, is done by the First Order to understand WHY Finn defected and was with the group of rebels that managed to blow up Starkiller base. No internal enquiry? No reprimand for Phasma? No purging of Finn’s stormtrooper comrades? And you seem quite content with that. It seems to me you’re just splitting hairs for the sake of it. All you are really doing is highlighting the same issues with the actual films.

    And yet you believe a single stormtrooper, who frees a rebel fighter and is directly
    involved in the destruction of Starkiller base, is less worthy of First Order concern, and internal rumblings at the top, than perhaps a band of soldiers who may simply want to run and find their families? How do the FO possibly know Finn is the only one ready to break ranks and join the rebels? As far as the FO are concerned, he could be one of many right? Given it’s not in the films, they must of just let that go right? That one concept is permissible, because it already exists in the films, and the other an impossibility because it isn’t, seems like a rather narrow argument.

    How could it possibly be ‘brought up’ in the sequels if the concept didn’t exist when the films were being made? That’s like saying, ‘I can’t possibly believe that Obi-Wan was friends with Padme because he never told Luke he was in the OT. And he would have surely told him that.’.


    I’m not sure you can seriously compare Finn to a droid... although I would say that Finn has less function than BB8 in the sequels... I’ll give you that... ;)

    As far as I’m aware the only Jedi that have been cited as joining the Sith are Anakin, Dooku and Ventress. I’m not sure if Revan’s story is canon now, but even including him, it’s a very small list. I’m also genuinely interested to know who these ‘plenty’ are in canon? It’s always possible I’ve missed a novel or comic that tells those stories. That of course doesn’t exclude the notion that the Sith were formed by breaking away from the Jedi... but that’s not the same thing.


    Because you seem to have a propensity to merge multiple sources that are not strictly defined as canon.


    I think it’s alway easier to pretend that those who disagree with you, or don’t like the things you do, are the minority and made up of ‘angry haters’.

    Again, I’m not sure I agree totally. I think many of the complaints levelled at the PT were legitimate, even if I may not agree with all of them. I certainly believe the ST warrants the criticism, as it’s lacking in many areas that I personally see as more fundamental. However, that’s not to say that there isn’t an issue with how contemporary media run with a headline... and how bloggers/you tubers use contention to encourage hits. That commercialisation of criticism seemed to start during the PT, and was prevelant during the ST. But I see that as a slightly different conversation, although there’s a connection of course.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  22. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    IMO, Storm Troopers simply aren't interesting no matter what. Finn wasn't interesting. Clones weren't interesting. They are canon fodder. That's how they work the best. There are many of them, they keep coming and that's the whole point, the overwhelming numbers. But all this forced background giving really didn't work for me. I don't care for Finn, Jannah, etc. I don't care for the Bad Batch. It's simply the concept that doesn't click with me and never will. Stolen kids or clones I don't care. I just don't. I really don't think that ST missed anything by not having Storm Trooper rebellion. It's the story for a streaming show or a separate movie series where that's the only focus, instead of hogging the screen time from the Force plot and being an interminable filler.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  23. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Finn is there. That's it. The rest is brought up *in the last act*. So, how do you expect and or blame act 1 or 2 for things which are brought up in the closing act? That doesnt make much sense.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  24. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I have literally no idea what you’re talking about.
     
  25. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    The Storm Trooper revolt. It was never there. It was never a thread.

    (I thought that was what was being mentioned. If not I apologize for the miscommunication)
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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