PT How do you feel about the concept of “the Sith” as it was developed in the prequels?

The prequels develop “the Sith” as a secret order of people in positions of power who manipulate events in hopes of taking over the galaxy and have the same powers as the Jedi, but use these powers for evil. They have “Darth” names, use red lightsabers, and (at least Sidious and Maul) wear black versions of Jedi robes. We’re told that they seemingly went extinct 1000 years ago. ROTS reveals that they ruled the galaxy before they went “extinct”. Yoda says that there’s always two, no more, no less, a Master and an Apprentice. Interviews with Lucas and the novelization explained that the Rule of Two was started by someone called Darth Bane in response to infighting.

 

I liked it...

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I liked it.
I wonder though, what form of government did they have when they ruled the galaxy in the past? Palpatine declared in ROTS the establishment of the first galactic empire. So it wasn't an empire in the past.

 

Its fine by me. I like that the Sith manipulate militias, governments, separatists to do their will. I like that the whole Jedi vs Sith conflict is controlled/fought through proxy factions. Just like how the Galactic Empire and Rebel Alliance war was a backdrop for the Jedi and Sith in the OT.

 

I remember thinking the Sith was something Lucas came up for the Prequels (I wasn't privy to its mention in his early scripts for the original films), so from that standpoint I liked how their story unfolded in the films to inform the Original Trilogy. Before then I just assumed the Dark Side was a generic brand of evil someone with magic could control.

Giving Empire's whole conflict with the Republic (and the Jedi) context with the Sith, and further expanding that into EU material (which just seemed to have a field day with the concept), made Palpatine and Darth Vader's place in the story as Luke's villains more legitimate in my eyes (I guess).

It certainly made me stop rolling my eyes at villains seemingly aping Vader's name by adopting the "Darth" moniker.

 

The rule of two was very interesting. So was the hidden Sith threat that the Jedi thought were extinct.

 

Many small empires rather than one big empire maybe, since it was pre-Rule-of-Two?

From the Zygerrian slaver arc of TCW:

Darth Sidious: Long have Sith empires been built upon the backs of slaves.

 

As I recall the novelization of ANH hinted that there were other Dark Lords at the time. "Fear followed the footsteps of all the Dark Lords." Kind of an odd way to reference history, it reads as if current. So if it was a plan to have more current ones it was indeed squashed to just Vader and Palps.

 

The novelization included things from earlier drafts. For example, a reference to multiple Emperors (in “The Star Wars”, there was the “Old Empire” rather than the “Old Republic”), Tarkin informs the Senate that he destroyed Alderaan, etc.

 

Hmm I see, so multiple Sith Lords ruling over different portions of the galaxy as small empires. That would satisfy both quotes: "first galactic empire" (multiple little ones as opposed to a single unified empire in the past) and "once more the Sith will rule the galaxy" (each small empire ruled by a different Sith Lord, but overall the whole galaxy is ruled by the Sith). Thanks!

 

It's really interesting to watch the prequels and try to understand what the Sith are without any other knowledge (as if you were being introduced to SW). The Sith are presented fairy ambiguously, without much explanation ("have been extinct for a millenium", "always two there are" and "at last we will have revenge" is all we get), but the visuals give you all the necessary information: the two Sith are a kind of dark version of the two Jedi, they dress similarly and have a similar master-apprentice relationship. Without any other information, you can clearly understand what their purpose is and how they relate to the Jedi.

 

I wonder if Lucas made the Sith ancient (rather than Palpatine forming them when the Jedi Purge began) in order to explain how Palpatine learned to use The Force without the Jedi knowing.

I don’t think the Jedi thinking the Sith were extinct was necessary (I’m not saying it was bad either), but it was necessary for the Jedi to not know the identities of each Sith because if they knew that Sheev was one...

 

The Sith were developed in the prequels but they existed in George Luca's mind since the OT, they were part of the original screenplay. Midi-chlorians existed back then as well. I think it's funny when people think of those things as "ruining" Star Wars or somehow contradicting the original movies, they were always a part of the backstory. They don't contradict anything and just provide more context

I love the concept. The Sith are meant to these cancerous entities. They spread darkness through everything they touch, whether that be the living world or the Force itself. It's really reflected in the insidious nature of Darth Sidious. There's some mystic and mysterious about them and I like it that way.

 

I enjoyed it all, because we never knew what a Sith even was just based upon the OT. I don't remember the word "Sith" ever being uttered. I do remember various promo stuff on occasion labelling Vader as a "Dark Lord of the Sith", but in context that was like labeling him "Employee of the Month at McDonald's". It meant nothing, cause we knew nothing about the Sith. So to have that expanded upon and revealed was greatly appreciated.

 

"Galactic."

Perhaps they had an empire, but never ruled the whole galaxy?

 

Midichlorians didn't exist back then. It seems that Lucas did, however, envision a race of naturally Force-sensitive aliens ( remind you of anyone? ), so the idea of a biological/genetic basis for Force sensitivity was there. But the specific concept of midichlorians did not show up until later.

 

I remember really liking this because it explained Darth Vader's title and also finally explained Palpatine's powers. To me the Rule of Two seemed weird but actually it really lent itself to the dramatics of the story. People had mostly assumed that the Emperor secretly pilfered secrets out of Jedi masters or something, but this new explanation was far superior. Comic books had expored the general concept of the Dark Lords of the Sith as the dark side version of the Jedi Order, but they were not film-level canon. I never liked the thing in the comics where they intermarried with aliens called the Sith. So I was glad that was never included in any of the movie stuff.

 

Are you getting that from the Dark Empire comics?

 

Dark Empire and the Zahn books both implied that he's consulted with or extorted information from Jedi masters. Jorus C'Baoth (not the clone) was described in records Luke was searching as a "special Jedi advisor" to Palpatine. That was the only hint Zahn gave to the issue. But he also referred to any force user as a "Jedi." Evil force users were called "dark Jedi," a term he coined. The Tales of the Jedi comics drew on material teased in Dark Empire to introduce the concept that the Dark Lords of the Sith were a group that broke away from the Jedi in millennia past; this was similar to what Lucas ultimately chose to do and it fit with his early story treatments and drafts.

Back in the 90s I remember a (mostly awful) fan fic prequel script where Darth Vader was saved from the lava by "wizards of the sith" or similar, a made up group who were like magic users. This was the only minimally cool part of it, But nobody really knew what Lucas was going to do and it's cool that he kept it that way. Reportedly one of the few things he forbade authors to do was go into any detail about the Clone Wars or the Rise of the Empire or recent history of the Sith--anything basically from the prequel era.

 

In Darksaber he claims to have obtained the knowledge of essence transfer from a Jedi.

 

The idea was that during the Jedi Purge, he took the holocron seen in Dark Empire from one of the Jedi he killed and that that holocron talked about the ancient Sith. In fact, the Tales of the Jedi comics are implied to be the contents of this holocron.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ashka_Boda

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Tedryn_Holocron

 

One of things I find amusing is that many people back in the 2000s complained about how you need a Visual Dictionary or some EU material to know about the Sith when in reality, the Sith are very easy to understand within the context of the films alone (helped by the Disney EU reboot).

Quite frankly, the horrified disbelief from the Jedi Council is all you need to understand about the Sith. They didn't fear droid armies and trade negotiations with greedy corporates. But the mere mention of the Sith is serious business.

 

Holocrons were introduced in Dark Empire and quickly beacame a major part of "Legends" lore (what used to be called the EU). The wayfinders in The Rise of Skywalker look like Sith holocrons from the comics and other materials; I suppose they may be a kind fo holocron. I remember thinking the wayfinder was a holocron when Kylo Ren took it out of the stone ark on Mustafar. I'm pretty sure that is the design inspiration.

 

I love the Sith characters (Sidious, Maul, Tyranus and Vader) but I wouldn't have used the Rule of Two up until the end of Episode 3. Until that moment, where Palpatine and Anakin purge the Jedi, the Sith are also wiped out (almost). That frees up the last thousand years to have some exciting stories, comics and novels, instead of two at a time, in hiding, with the Republic living in relative peace. Boring. Have the survivors go into hiding, then return for the sequel trilogy after Episode 6. Now you're not painting yourself into a corner, forcing fans to retcon things like Asajj Ventress, Inquisitors, Maul surviving being cut in half, etc.

 

The word didn't exist back then, the general concept obviously did, due to the nature of the force being at least in part hereditary. Basically this mere fact led to the logical conclusion that there must have been a genetic factor to it, otherwise the idea of offspring being powerful wouldn't make sense.