PT How many people knew Darth Sidious was also Palpatine?

Also, it's not like Palpatine is the Chancellor when the Trade Federation invasion is launched. He's still the Senator from Naboo. And during the Clone Wars, Palpatine uses catspaws like Grievous and Tyranus, and keeps face-to-face contact with underlings like Nute Gunray at a minimum.

 

I've always found it amusing how, when Dooku uses the same trick to present himself as "Tyranus" to the Kaminoans, he has to take care to keep his entire face in shadow--presumably because his facial hair is just too darn distinctive!



(Also maybe because the "lower" portion of TCW Dooku's face is almost his entire face.)

 

I'm not sure why you'd compare the two. A guy who has power in the senate who sounds nearly exactly like the guy who runs the senate? Surely the Trade Federation, at the very least, theorized that Palpatine and Sidious were one in the same.

The problem here is that neither Osama nor W. assumed a secret identity and claimed to control their respective nations. If anything, they were very open. Saying Nute had no clue is essentially calling Nute an idiot. I absolutely think Palpatine could trust Nute. If he talks, he's in

When he becomes Chancellor, I am 100% sure Nute noticed and, provided he is at least halfway intelligent, probably found that there were some interesting dots to connect.

 

If so, he also probably realized that speaking out about that would be a good way to commit assisted suicide.

 

Yes, and the guy who writes articles about Superman for the Daily Planet while hanging around with Superman's friends Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen, yet who is also conveniently never in the same place as Superman at the same time, looks and sounds nearly exactly like Superman. Yet no one ever figures it out--except sometimes for Lois, after lots of clever deduction.

It's a convention of the genre. There's no indication that Nute Gunray ever figured it out. The fact that we can tell they're the same person isn't relevant. In-universe, Sidious wouldn't rely on a disguise that could be seen through by a short-sighted fool like Nute Gunray.

e: Hell, Sidious's means of disguising himself is essentially the same as Batman's. He covers the top part of his face and makes his voice sound different. And it works.

 

I just don't see any reason to compare the DC super-hero universe to Star Wars. The same principle applies, though: it is totally possible someone could 'figure out' that Superman and Clark Kent were the same and simply do nothing about it for fear of getting involved with a world of super-heroics that was clearly above and beyond the average person.

If Nute suspected Palpatine and Sidious were one and the same, and I suspect he did, would he really want to do anything about it? Sounds like that might be bad for his health!

Let's take a look at all the things Nute Gunray knows:

• Nute Gunray is intimately familiar with Coruscant and its politics - it is safe to say that he knew who Palpatine was prior to instigating the trade dispute on Naboo.
  
• Nute Gunray had semi-frequent contact with Sidious and knew he was a Sith Lord.
• Gunray also knew that Sidious had connections to the Senate.
  
• Gunray had to have been aware when Palpatine became Chancellor.

Also, keep in mind the other Separatists (to my knowledge, please correct me if I'm wrong) had minimal contact with Sidious. Nute Gunray was the one most familiar with the 'mastermind' behind the plot.

With all of those dots to connect, it seems crazy to me that he never put two and two together.

 

It's the exact same trope. Surely it isn't possible that you can't see any reason to make the comparison.

There's no reason to think Nute Gunray figured it out. Nothing in the films or any other media even hints that he did. This is all wild extrapolation based on nothing. Nute Gunray is not a wise person. He is the least likely person to realize what is actually going on.

 

It's only a trope if it works the same way...and as far as I can tell, there is no evidence that it does. You may as well compare the hyperdrive of the Millennium Falcon to the warp drive of the USS Enterprise. It's a totally separate universe that abides by its own rules and does not have any bearing to the Star Wars universe.

The films sure do give Nute a lot of dots to connect. Again, the guy he secretly works for has power in the senate. Magically, after their attempt on an invasion of Naboo, the senator from Naboo becomes Chancellor. Around the same time this happens, he begins using a proxy (Tyrannus) to communicate. These two guys also look and sound exactly the same.

I'm not sure how you can say Nute is not wise. The EU implies that his rise to power was selected by Palpatine himself. You could argue (and I'd probably agree) that this was because Nute was malleable by means of the Dark Side. That doesn't mean that he's an idiot. The guy ran an intergalactic trade franchise, coordinated with the Senate and planetary leaders regularly, and commandeered an entire army. If anything, his experience with the underbelly of galactic politics would make him even more likely to realize that there was a pretty obvious connection between Palpatine and Sidious.

Even if he did realize something was up, it's not like he could do anything - after all, coming forward with such a bold claim would be suicide.

 

I would absolutely compare the hyperdrive to the warp drive, because they're essentially the same plot device used in the same way.

You could use this line of reasoning to argue that anyone could have figured it out. Of course there are dots to connect. Sidious is Palpatine. But no one in the film does figure it out. There is no indication that they did, anywhere in the films.

Sidious and Palpatine do not look and sound exactly the same. Palpatine disguises his voice and appearance when presenting himself as Sidious. I've pointed this out several times.

I don't care what the EU says. This is a movie forum. Sidious chose Nute Gunray because he's easily manipulable. His greed makes him shortsighted and foolish, just like Watto. This is a major theme of the film.

But there's no evidence that he did know in the first place. You're pulling this out of nowhere based solely on the fact that Sidious can be identified as Palpatine by the audience. But Nute Gunray is not the audience. He is a fictional character in the film. This is my point.

 

The fact remains though that very few people saw both Darth Sidious and knew about his connections to the Senate. I can't think of anyone besides Nute Gunray.

As for his appearance, I guess he's hiding the top half of his face? But his voice is essentially the same. It's not like he's going through theatrical lengths to hide himself from the Trade Federation.

Your bold sentence here is veering off into EU territory. Since we're just talking about the movies, all we know is that Nute Gunray is in charge of an extraordinarily large trade federation. We have to assume that he's intelligent enough to run that operation. If he's smart enough to do that, he's smart enough to connect the dots. Are we to assume Gunray never ever ever looked into this guy? He just got a holographic phone call from a Sith Lord and was 100% down with putting his conglomerate in danger? I think that's too far fetched for me.

Nute Gunray is capable of seeing/hearing the same things we are. And we are capable of making inferences based on what we know about the character.

 

[redacted because I’m basically vocalizing the above poster’s point]

But yeah, Nute isn’t stupid. He runs a friggin’ trade empire for God’s sake. You have to have some level of intelligence to do that. Yes, he’s a greedy coward but it’s that trait that keeps him from speaking out that Sidious and Palpatine are one in the same. He knows that doing so will end badly for him. He doesn’t wanna die so he keeps his mouth shut.

 

As I recall, that was what George Lucas wanted to do with the Emperor's hologram in ESB: just show a shadowy figure with a hood, and keep his face obscured. Maybe that was harder without CGI techniques, since in the real world you don't get 100% invisibility from wearing a hood.

 

None.

 

So by your logic, everyone in the Superman stories should have immediately figured out that he's Clark Kent. Are they not capable of seeing/hearing the same things we are? So then how do you account for most of the characters' continued ignorance? Could it be that we're dealing with a fictional story?

There is no indication, whatsoever, that Nute Gunray discovered Sidious's true identity. None. Sidious is in disguise whenever he interacts with Gunray.

This is all just your own personal headcanon.

You can run the biggest trade empire in the universe and still be a complete and utter fool. Gunray is intelligent enough to run the Trade Federation. He isn't wise enough to understand that he's being manipulated by someone whose goals are completely counter to his. That's the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

 

No, because Superman isn't in Star Wars. I mean, if you want I can go into detail about how Superman canonically uses super-speed to 'vibrate' his face when he's Superman, or how he used his glasses to hypnotize people into not seeing Superman when they looked at Clark Kent. But that wouldn't make any sense because Superman and his universe aren't in question here.

Is he intelligent enough to realize Palpatine's machinations are parallel to Palpatine's rise in power? Or that Palpatine and Sidious sound an awful lot alike? Or that the planet Sidious set up the Trade Federation to invade just so happens to be Palpatine's home planet and said invasion gets Palpatine a sympathy vote?

If he's intelligent enough to run a Trade Federation, he's intelligent enough to connect those dots. Making logical assumptions about characters based on what happens in the movies is not 'headcanon' by any stretch of the word.

 

It seems sly moore and mas amedda knew.

 

Yeah but did dooku knew he was Palpatine ? I think not.

 

The novelisation at least, stressed that Dooku knew - he was even having a conversation with him as Sidious (while he was handcuffed in the throne preparing to play his "Palpatine hostage" role), right before Obi-Wan and Anakin arrive.

 

Hypnotism? Face vibration? I have no idea what you're talking about.*

That's not why no one recognizes Clark Kent as Superman. This is why:



*Hint: I do know what you're talking about. It's completely irrelevant. But I know for a fact that trying to explain to you why would be an act of futility even beyond what I am now attempting.

This isn't a logical assumption. You might as well argue that if Yoda is smart enough to run a Jedi Order, he should be smart enough to realize Palpatine is a Sith Lord. After all, it's pretty obvious to the audience, right?

You've essentially gone from claiming with no basis that Nute Gunray knows Sidious's secret, to asserting that this conclusion is in fact uncontroversially implied by textual evidence. That's ridiculous.

For the umpteenth time, Palpatine is in disguise as Sidious. This disguise is obviously an effective one. There is no implication, at any point in the films, that Nute Gunray has seen through this disguise. Absolutely none.

 

Who's to say, after their duel in The Clone Wars cartoon, that Yoda didn't have his suspicions? I can't debate on that manner, though, because I'm not as familiar with the show.

I'm claiming that all evidence Newt Gunray and the audience have points in the direction of Palpatine and Sidious being the same guy. My basis - the film itself and everything in my post above.

His disguise is a hood. Let's not get carried away.

 

Well from the scenes we see, they only seem to communicate via hologram. I guess it's possible that each time before turning on the hologram, Sidious carefully adjusts the lighting so that they only see the lower half of his face. But yeah it's still a very weak disguise.

Also, I'm not sure if this is correct (I didn't put the images side by side to compare), but my mom thinks that during the hologram conversations, Sidious actually had his Sidious face (the super wrinkly one) on. If this is true, then even if Nute had suspicions, he might brush it aside because the face (well, at least the lower half) doesn't match.

 

Since Darth Maul met his master at Senator Palpatines balcony at least Maul knew.

 

Nope. The hologram is very clear on the Blu-Ray's, and the lower half of his face...looks suspiciously exactly like Palpatine's face.

 

The incident in TCW in which Fives learns that the plot to use the Clones to kill the Jedi goes all the way up to the Supreme Chancellor, even before the start of the war, serves as a good example of something akin to this happening but nobody believing it.

He didn't know anything about Palpatine being a Sith Lord, but it illustrates how unlikely everyone was to believe such things.

Anakin certainly did not believe Palpatine was capable of what Fives was saying. Ironic that it was Rex, Anakin's captain, who did trust Fives.

Even Count Dooku told Obi-Wan that the Republic was under the control of the Dark Lord, but he didn't believe it. And even when the Jedi entertained the idea, they didn't assume it was the Chancellor himself.

He had them snowed over like a dead Taun-Taun.

 

Mas Amedda, Dooku, probably Sly Moore, Anakin, Yoda and Obi Wan, as well as Bail I suppose.