PT How many people knew Darth Sidious was also Palpatine?

I was under the impression that Palpatine used the Force on Fives. We never actually do see what happens between them.

 

The only people who actually see Sidious as Sidious are his minions in the Trade Federation, General Grievous, and actual Dark Lords of the Sith. The former two see him only as a hologram in saga films. Since I try to reason only from saga films, I think there is an interesting point that Sidious revealed his holographic visage to at least three Neimodians--Nute Gunray, Rune Haako and Doultray Dofine. OK, I just realized he is visible to other separatist leaders when he contacts Nute Gunray on Mustafar. But it is worth pointing out that everyone in the room will very soon be made dead.

 

If that was true though that would mean Fox and maybe some of the other shock troopers knew that Palpatine was Sidious. They were in the room with Fives.

 

I know this isn't what you're asking, but I was one of those rare idiots who was waiting for Palpatine to be revealed as Sidious's new apprentice.

 

Probably Anakin,Yoda,Obi-Wan,Padme,Mon Mothma,Bail Organa,Mace Windu,Sassee Tiin,Agen Kolar,Kit Fisto,Dooku,Maul,R2-D2,Close aids of Palpatine like Mas Amedda.I would guess maybe Ahsoka?I doubt he trusted Grievous and the nemoidans to keep their secret.

 

That's true. By Revenge of the Sith, Mas Amedda was all the way in.

 

Dooku is the only one I think we can say for 100% sure if we’re talking in the PT before the Republic became the Empire. I think it’s pretty safe to assume that Maul would have known as well. Mas at least seems to know that Palpatine has greater ambition than just being Chancellor so he most likely knew about Palpatine’s dark side, but this raises the question of “how many people knew that Sidious was pulling the strings behind the Separatists?”. It seems likely that Mas would be in on this too but he wouldn’t have to be if doesn’t know about things like the Rule of 2. There’s nothing in the movies to suggest Nute Gunray knows the whole war is a sham and the same guy is controlling both sides, and since he for sure knows that Palpatine is the Chancellor and Sidious is who the Separatists report to, he must not know that they are the same person. By the OT Obi-wan and Yoda obviously know, and it seems incredibly likely they would have shared this information with Bail. In turn, it seems like this would have been relevant information for Bail to share with the rest of the leaders of the Alliance. Padme definitely should have been able to put the pieces together when everything goes down in ROTS, it’s just a question of whether she had time to mention it to people like Mon Mothma before her untimely demise. The general public would have no idea what a Sith is let alone that Palpatine was one. The military doesn’t need to know that he can shoot lightning out of his hands to understand that good things happen to you if you please him and bad things happen if you don’t.

 

I think characters like Mas Amedda don't know so much as they're under the control of Palpatine. Palpatine is leaving zero chance someone like Mas could slip up and reveal even a hint of the truth. Really Mas needs to be able to hold up under investigation by the Jedi. But Mas getting a little drunk and saying something to the wrong person at the right party could be enough.

I think Palpatine takes control of his mind. Mas will do and see things he has zero memory of later. And when compelled Mas will follow an order by Palpatine without hesitation or thought. He's almost like a human droid. This tampering and control is also hidden from the Jedi. Palpatine's most loyal guards are also compelled to obey and forget in the same way.

What Palpatine does with Snoke may be silmiar.

I think only three people know Darth Sidious is Palpatine. Those are the apprentices Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus and Mother Talzin. Talzin and Palpatine worked together learning of the Force and Palpatine stole her son Darth Maul. Talzin's dealings with Dooku and setting him up with Ventress and Savage Opress are all part of Talzin's plot to bring back Maul get revenge on Darth Sidious.

 

Really? His character always struck me as a die-hard I-know-Palpatine-is-Sidious loyalist as opposed to someone robbed of their free will (if that's how you meant it). Him and the bald David Bowie-like character (looks up name), Sly Moore.

 

Robbed of freewill. A pawn. That's how I meant it.

The first time watching Revenge of the Sith, at the opera when Palpatine says "Leave us" it was spooky the way everyone in the box stands up at once without hesitation and leaves. In Attack of the Clones the one two push Palpatine and Mas do talking about giving the Chancellor more power and convincing Jar Jar to propose it has this same feeling. The way Mas says it is like someone else's words coming out of his mouth.

 

Whenever I get around to re-watching AOTC and ROTS again, I'll keep this in mind.

 

I don't see any indication that this is the case. Mas Amedda and Sly Moore are simply Sidious's loyal servants.

If it were really true that they were under some sort of sustained hypnotism or mind control, that's something that would have been established. The simple fact that they obey his commands is not something which implies a more involved explanation.

 

Loyal servants of Palpatine I'd buy. But not Darth Sidious. How could Darth Sidous trust either of them with his real identity and plans. Too big a risk. They're under his control.

 

Who says that they are aware of his plans?

Being a supporter doesn't mean that you get told every detail of the plan. Dooku very clearly was aware of how Sidious planned to take over ther Republic by fighting a war in which both sides were under his control, but that didn't mean that Dooku was aware of what Sidious planned to do with him. Likewise, Moore and Amedda might know some things but not others.

Letting all your subordinates know what they need to know, without giving them the entire picture, is the safest approach for the leader. It's not like people would blindly believe them if they claimed that Palpatine was the Sith Lord anyway. Dooku openly told the Jedi the secret, and they didn't believe him, so why would this be any different? It could just as well be that one of them would be the Sith Lord, or that they are his followers and try to undermine Palpatine by suggesting that he is the Sith. As long as there is no proof, which they are unlikely to have, there isn't much anyone could gain from them.

 

In Legends, Sidious even delegated the occasional "Darth Sidious" holographic appearance to Moore.

 

Just seems too much of a risk to let anyone outside of other Sith Lords know that Palpatine is the mysterious Sith Lord Darth Sidious. Maybe General Grevious knows... But i sort of doubt it.

 

He certainly didn't know in Legends (don't know about newcanon) - the way he treats Palpatine in both CW and Labyrinth of Evil showcases that.

 

I really like that. Grevious helps kidnap Palpatine with zero idea it's his boss Darth Sidous.

 

You're mine, old man.
I'm not afraid of you. You wouldn't dare harm the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic. Whatever would your master say?
(throat grab)
You are lucky they want you alive!

 

That's so good. And why I think as few three people know who Sidious is of all the characters in the Prequels and The Clone Wars.

 

And Kinman Doriana thought that Sidious and Palpatine were separate individuals.

 

I doubt anyone on the Separatist Council knew Palpatine was Sidious. What is interesting to note is that the Council isnt too concerned with the CIS losing the war. In the ROTS novel, Nute Gunray disengages the droid army while Vader shuts them down completely. As Gunray says, "The war is over. Lord Sidious promised us peace."

You would think the Council would be more upset about losing the war, especially non-corporate CIS leaders like Po Nudo and Tikkes. That being said, given that the CIS council was MOSTLY made of corporate backers who were only interested in their own agendas, they probably didnt care if the CIS actually won the war. They might have hoped that they did, given Dooku's promise of free trade and enterprise, but they wanted business with both the Republic and Separatists.

I think the CIS council was hoping that the Empire/Republic would negotiate with them since the corporations controlled the Separatist war machine. Sidious would help them get their free enterprise/non-taxed trade in exchange for shutting down the droid armies.

 

Agreed. The CIS council thinks they'll land with golden parachutes. With Grevious gone they just want the war to end and peace brokering to start before they are captured by Republic forces. They want to avoid the short period of time when they could be vulnerable. They'd be most vulnerable in an active war zone and in military custody where their money might not protect them.

Once peace is declared, business as usual could begin again. And in business the CIS Council members could have immunity again. They have no expectations Darth Sidious will send a lone agent to eliminate all of them. They don't see it coming at all. And members like Po Nubo and Tikkes must have some deal worked out to still be in it at this point.

 

How could he trust them? Because he deems them trustworthy. Doesn't seem like something that screams for an explanation that isn't present or implied anywhere in the films.

 

Exactly. I'm banking on the idea that the Council was hoping their corporations' influence in the Senate was still too important for them to be tried for treason and war crimes. (Though given they were publicly disowned by their respective organizations in TCW as being extremist splinter groups, that could muddle things). Either way, they really didnt expect that they would be assassinated and their corporations absorbed into the Empire to make sure their influence wouldn't cause corruption like the old Republic.

It makes me wonder why Po Nudo and Tikkes were accepted onto the Council if they were normal Separatists. And if they believed in the cause compared to their Federation/Techno Union ilk, who were the majority, I wonder why they would remain with the Council.