How Much AU in Alternative Universe is too much?

There has been the ODD EU that has handeled the characters well, but over all...

Bring on the sparkly spandexed Obi-wan...

"vvvvvvollllllaaaarie"

*runs screaming out of the forums....*

 

Care if I join?

Just to get this out front, I love AU's. It's about all I write in fact. And I know before hand whether it is one or not. I couldn't get through the plot without knowing. I just love taking existing characters and putting them in different scenarios. The part that keeps it SW, I think, is how close to the originals the characters are. True, different past exprences can/will change how they act but still, some just have certain traits that are always with them no matter 'where' they are. Anakin more than likely will struggle with the Dark Side and Qui-Gon will do what he thinks best. Though I have to agree that (poor) Obi-Wan seems to be the univeral guinea (sp?) pig.

The reason I like AU's is that you don't know what's going to happen next. One little thing is changed (or one really BIG thing) and after that anything can happen. And isn't that the point of writing? Sure you can write things straight from canon, or fill in the blanks where the movies skipped but sooner or later you run out of ideas that would still be considered canon. Plus everyone wants to add their own little personal touches in just for their sake.

And frankly, I get a little tried of reading how Obi-Wan feels after Qui-Gon brushes him aside. Unless you're going to have him get mad at Qui-Gon, which you could do if you set it up right, and have him confront Qui before they leave and somehow changes things, either them not going to Naboo or even having them fight together better against Maul.

But back to personal touches. I don't think those are AU's. If they were, then everything outside of GL would be since he's the only one that could write true canon. And for writing things that haven't happened yet, like Epi 3, those aren't AU either. As Galadriel said, more or less, it hasn't happened yet and so you can't be wrong. How and why Anakin turns is still up in the air and so it's a free-for-all on who's right or not.

And Cyn, there is a theory that states, more or less, that for every action available there's an universe out there following it. And since there's so many ways to do one thing at one time, the number increases every time you do something, plus all the other universes that already exist. (Just think, in another dimension, these boards exist and we could be talking about the same thing only, say, Cyn likes Qui-Gon there instead. Don't hurt me! I'm only using an example and I thought I'd tease you a little. ) Anyways, that's my quantum theory for my life. But that's how I look at things when I come up with a new story. There was that butterfly that flapped, or didn't flap, it's wings at such-and-such time and changed something.

And I totally agree with Neon on that AU's aren't easy to write. In fact, the few, ahem, canon's I've written were realitivly easy because I didn't have to worry about where it was going, I already knew. For AU's you have to explain why things are the way they are that could mean you coming up with a whole new history for everyone (at least that's happened to me on a few occasions).

Besides, I think that if you write it well, people wouldn't be perturbed about how things turned out because it's already been explained. Now, if you just like how SW went and turned out, and don't like anything else, well then, I can't do anything about that. To each his own. I have no problem with that, and if people don't like AU's, then I'm warning you, stay away from my stuff. Though, just for the Qui-Gon porn star comment, I do try to keep it at least PG-13, most of the weirdest AU's I've seen have been other such sites that best not be mentioned here.

Well, that's enough rambling from me. Interesting thread though.

~Swede

 

I, too, love A/U's. They're definantly my favourite genre. I'm glad to see I'm not alone.

I think too much AU is when you change the story so much the characters are no longer recognizable. The better AU's I've read tend to take one what if question (like, 'What if Luke never left Dagobah?' or 'What if Amidala and co never crashed on Tatooine?', etc) and go from there-Rather than just say, go, 'What if Anakin Skywalker wasn't a Jedi, but a firefighter, AND he didn't marry Padme, AND he never turned into Darth Vader, AND he disco danced at Week's End with Obi-Wan, who wasn't a Jedi either, but a chef at a famous restaurant, who also went by the name Alex.'-That's too much AU, IMO.

 

Exactly, Sophita. That's not an AU or a speculation. That's a story that no longer has anything at all to do with Star Wars.

 

LOL, Sophita.

But to take off on that point: really, the whole purpose - at least for me - in an AU is to give the author a chance to take established characters and explore their bounds - to put them to limits that couldn't be acceded in the films, and to see what their emotional structure would be like under a particular type of duress. The magic of good AU is not that it's wildly different - it's that it gives another way to see and understand the characters; a way to really know them and digest their personalities and humanity. I think when AU's overstep their bounds - when characters stop being themselves, and too many odd, perverted and non-realistic events start taking place - that everything runs amuck; it is at this point I lose interest, and the story just stops, as JG said above, being Star Wars.

 

The magic of good AU is not that it's wildly different - it's that it gives another way to see and understand the characters; a way to really know them and digest their personalities and humanity.

Well, that's a nice way to put it, and is indicative of much good literature, but...

Once they have gone into those other places-- the place where Obi-Wan is not a Jedi, where Anakin didn't go all darkside, where Qui-Gon didn't die-- then you're no longer dealing with Star Wars characters. You've taken something that exists, and created a completely different character out of it.

You're not exploring Obi-Wan's personality, you're exploring the personality of a character that you've called "Obi-Wan," and who may look like Obi-Wan, and still smell like Obi-Wan, but isn't Obi-Wan. This person has moved out of the Star Wars universe into something else.

(And this is the general you, not any author in particular, though I quoted D_S)

IMHO, anyway-- I'm talking about me, and not people who like AU's. And I'm not saying they're not hard to do, and are not well-written. But when things go all AU on me, that's when I lose interest in the stories.

I like Obi-Wan because he is a Jedi, because he was trained by Qui-Gon, because he does have faults, because he did "fail" with Anakin either through some fault or not fault of his own-- not just because he's really hot, and I want to create a totally new character based off of him.

I do have imagination. I love completely original stories, with fabulous characters doing fabulous, outlandish things.

But for Star Wars, I like to read canonish stories because to me they remain in the realm of the GFFA-possible. Behind the scenes and between-the-movie stories are my favorites, because they explore what might have really happened, while still leading up to what will be. I don't always embrace the EU, but I unequivocally embrace what GL himself has shown us on the screen. Anakin will turn to the darkside, even if we don't want him to.

But even so, to me, Chewbacca and Anakin Solo are dead, in stories set in timelines occurring after their death. Even if their deaths were EU, and even if I don't want them to be. Too late, it already happened, it's too late to close my eyes and pretend I didn't read it.

(Just like I can't pretend KJA never got a hold of the Star Wars Universe, and twisted it for his own Evil Ends. Thanks, George, for showing us that Qui Xux did not design the Death Star. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.)

 

I don't agree with you that having an AU situation annihilates a character or their persona. I suppose I come from the stance of liking moderate AU - the type where just one plot device is changed, or where the history backing the story is somewhat different - and so, whenever I refer to the term, I refer to such works. What I do agree with you on is the problems of overstuffed premise: having a fic, for example, in which Obi-Wan wasn't a Jedi, or Anakin never met Qui-Gon Jinn - because here, indeed, something that was the defining point of those characters in the films has been stripped away. However, having a piece - lets say, for rhetorical purposes, something like Anakin never turning to the Darkside or leaving the order - where the premise is logically plausible, doesn't destroy the potency of the characters. It changes their situations, which is something that was always Star Wars-y anyway (IMO).

 

You're not exploring Obi-Wan's personality, you're exploring the personality of a character that you've called "Obi-Wan," and who may look like Obi-Wan, and still smell like Obi-Wan, but isn't Obi-Wan. This person has moved out of the Star Wars universe into something else.... IMHO, anyway-- I'm talking about me, and not people who like AU's. And I'm not saying they're not hard to do, and are not well-written. But when things go all AU on me, that's when I lose interest in the stories.

I love AUs, but what you're talking about there isn't an AU--it's bad characterization. An AU has to be scrupulous about characterization, because that's what makes it tick. They're the only thing that's a constant. You have to understand who the character is at heart.

Someone wants to do a story about Obi-Wan where he's not a Jedi? Okay, that's doable--but that's not going to change the essence of who he is, the things that made him a great Jedi. For instance, an AU where this might happen would be, Obi-Wan's parents found out that the Jedi wanted to take him, and for whatever reason, decided to not let him go. We pick up when he's the age he would be as an apprentice, and his world is in trouble.

He's still Force sensitive, still devoted to the things he cares about, still a bit stodgy, and still a hero. Does he feel that something is missing in his life? Does he ever feel the pull of the Force? How does he reconcile it with caring for his parents? He's not overly demonstrative, and given how comfortable he is with not being demonstrative, I'd say that's just an inborn trait. Do people think he's aloof? Sad? Stuck up? I mean... that's an AU. Just having him behave out of character isn't.

 

IMHO, a character is a person - put them in a different situation and they will react differently. But they, their core personality, does remain intact. Jedi_Shampoo seems to be saying that all the original characters are totally limited to their situations - like they don't have a personality otherwise, and I think that is just wrong. You can do a AU and keep to the character.

 

But even so, to me, Chewbacca and Anakin Solo are dead, in stories set in timelines occurring after their death. Even if their deaths were EU, and even if I don't want them to be. Too late, it already happened, it's too late to close my eyes and pretend I didn't read it.

I guess that depends on your point of view. The movies are inviolable, so non-AU stories must follow them, though an AU could change the events (but the characters, as I said, must remain constant).

But the EU? I've read a bit here and there, found it unimpressive, and just gone back to ignoring it, no problem. Not only is Anakin Solo not dead in my GFFA universe, he doesn't actually exist in it. Ditto for Mara Jade and Thrawn and the rest of 'em. The only EU I make use of is Jude Watson's stuff, and that I pick and choose with. I guess I don't see the profic as substantively different from fanfic. I can read eight versions of Anakin's proposal to Amidala and write a ninth and hold all of them in my head... I don't see any particular reason why Zahn should be harder to ignore.

Caveat: If you are acknowledging the EU, then changing stuff in it makes it an AU. If you believe in Mara, then she has to be Mara, not just some chick named Mara who happens to be hanging out around a guy named Luke.

 

I love AUs, but what you're talking about there isn't an AU--it's bad characterization. An AU has to be scrupulous about characterization, because that's what makes it tick. They're the only thing that's a constant. You have to understand who the character is at heart.

^^This is exactly what I was trying to say... (Obaona stated it quite eloquently as well)

 

Someone wants to do a story about Obi-Wan where he's not a Jedi? Okay, that's doable--but that's not going to change the essence of who he is, the things that made him a great Jedi.

If someone wants to try it, I say, sure, go ahead and do it. But at that point, why not just go for the gusto and make it an OC? Then I might be interested in reading it.

Of course, no one will cry their eyes out because I don't want to read it. It seems that AUs are very, very popular here, so such a thing would probably have a huge and appreciative audience.

Pretty much, I guess any fanfiction is an AU...including any and all things I've written. We all have to make up something to write a story that doesn't follow the exact storyline of GL's five-movie trilogy. I guess I'm just a stubborn poophead on what I consider AU, and what limits I set on what I like to read.

 

If someone wants to try it, I say, sure, go ahead and do it. But at that point, why not just go for the gusto and make it an OC? Then I might be interested in reading it.

Because the interesting thing about the scenario isn't just how some random person would behave in it. The point of an AU is to explore how the known characters would behave in a different scenario. Loving the characters is the only reason to read or write an AU--you get to explore them more deeply, see the root of them, find out what makes them tick. The scenario is nothing more than a tool, a spotlight to shine on the established character to see what he looks like from a different angle. Shining it on an original character would completely defeat the purpose of writing it. Generally speaking, the people who write AUs well are the ones whose forte and interest is characterization.

Writing an original character story would have, by definition, a totally different character. Or one that behaved so much like Obi-Wan that anyone who read it would see he'd started his life as Obi-Wan (otherwise, it would be a bad AU)... so why not just make it Obi-Wan?

I don't dislike original character stories and have written them. But they're at the opposite end of the spectrum from AU. Basically, original character stories are an anything goes thing; speculations can have sort of unusual interpretations of characters that may or may not be proven right or wrong; and AUs have to have the characters behaving as themselves without fail, because that's the point of the AU: Who is this character, really, with all the ephemera pulled away?

 

The point of an AU is to explore how the known characters would behave in a different scenario. Loving the characters is the only reason to read or write an AU--you get to explore them more deeply, see the root of them, find out what makes them tick.

YES!!!!!!!!!!! The only reason I read AU is because I'm desperate to understand more of my favorite character (Anakin/Vader, but that's an aside) - seeing a story set in a completely new setting with his character - and how an author envisions his motives, behavior, ideals, speech, etc. - this is what I've always and very firmly believed AU was for. I mean, why else would one read anAU? The whole point is, as JG said above and I've been trying to say before, to get a chance to know the character better. The non-film setting only gives flexibility set-wise - more areas to see a character's already formed personality - and this is not what we, the authors, say their persona is, but what has already been established in the films - a fresh view of the character tinted so heavily by the films that the "AU" is practically canon. Good AU is really a character sketch. It's not an author trying to change the character - it's an attempt to deepen an understanding of the character, and in a way - because of the strict adherence necessary to the dictated principles of that character's psyche - a great act of respect.

 

Good AU is really a character sketch. It's not an author trying to change the character - it's an attempt to deepen an understanding of the character, and in a way - because of the strict adherence necessary to the dictated principles of that character's psyche - a great act of respect.

Most definitely.

 

Good AU is really a character sketch. It's not an author trying to change the character - it's an attempt to deepen an understanding of the character, and in a way - because of the strict adherence necessary to the dictated principles of that character's psyche - a great act of respect.

I'll agree that this is so. It constitutes an act of respect to GL, because we love his characters so much that we want to know more about them.

But in my own, personal, narrow-minded view of what constitutes readable fanfiction, I don't see the point. Why go to all the trouble to create an alternate history for a character that doesn't belong to me, and who already has a perfectly good history of his own? I want to know what REALLY COULD have happened; I want a better understanding of the character and how he or she relates to the movie.

Exploring a character in an AU is certainly fun for many, I suppose, and after all, we write fanfiction because it's fun to do, it's fun to improve our writing, and it's fun to get feedback from others.

But I want to know the things that MIGHT have happened, that GL didn't show us-- what happened to Obi-Wan between the ages of 16 and 25? Where did he and Qui-Gon go? What sort of missions did they go on, and what people might they have encountered? And what about Anakin and Obi-Wan?

Well, GL hasn't told us, so therein lies the draw, for me, of "canonish" fanfiction. It fits with what I know, and adds depth to the movies and books that we have been given. It becomes, in effect, a possible little bit of history that I can add to the character I see in the movie.

If a story does not begin and end in places that can fit "before the movies," "between the movies" or "inside the movie," as it were, then it has no relevance whatsoever to my understanding of the character from the movies. It has become a totally new character. I want to know more about the GFFA that we have; I don't need new universes.

I'm not being argumentative, really. Just pointing out that each person's tolerance for AU levels is different. I'm sure someone else out there is on the far side, right there with me. Uhhh...

::crickets chirping::

And may I say this is a fascinating discussion? There are some really convincing arguments.

 

And may I say this is a fascinating discussion? There are some really convincing arguments.

Quite - and let me make it clear that I'm not trying to degrade canon work. I just happen to like AU better... basically, I want to see my favorite character in his prime, rather than his childhood. I think it just comes down to simple, individual preferences (though occasionally I've found JA Anakin interesting).

 

I love both equally. Canon stuff, I like because of the plot, and trying to make it all work so that nothing in the movies is disturbed, while still having the characters go through whole arcs of action. AU stuff, I like for the characterization work and the chance to see the characters themselves more clearly, with all the plot stuff cleared out. (That's why I'm confused about the equation between AU and bad characterization... I've always thought of them as essentially opposite ends of the spectrum--you can have AU or you can have people behaving out of character, but you can't have both.)

 

Well, it's obvious, at least, that - while we may not have reached an agreement on what does or does not constitute AU - and where the line lies regarding acceptibility, it's pretty clear that we can, for the most part, agree on what goes so far beyond the pale as to be ludicrous: Obi boiking everything in - and out of - skirts; Padmé giving up her political career to become a fashion designer; Anakin losing himself in a chocolate addiction that leaves him weighing in at 400#; Yoda on a skateboard; Qui-Gon on quaaludes, or Mace in a tutu (purple or not). If you change the character THAT drastically, they cease to exist as the character they once were - and become nothing more than a false image sporting a familiar name. And if you're going to take it to that extreme, why write SW at all? In the old adage of the Beat generation, tell it like it is - and title it, Off-the-Wall Weirdos I Have Known - and set it anywhere you like - except in that GFFA. For, in reality, in a story like that about fictional characters like that, it makes no difference at all if its set on Manhattan Island, the continent of Australia - or the moons of Jupiter. One is just as real and possible as the other - and none have any real connection to SW.

Having said that, I find myself looking at things lately from a slightly different perspective. The work that is currently occupying my time - and dominating my thoughts - is my attempt to 'reverse engineer' - for lack of a better phrase - the origins of Obi-Wan Kenobi - and try to explain what happened to him, both during his early youth, prior to arriving at the Temple, and after that, as he was growing up, in order to learn why he was so filled with the anger that drove him in his battles with Bruck Chun - the anger that almost cost him his chance to be a Jedi.

I've thought about using this basis to expand the story into AU territory - but I think, in this case, it's more interesting to try to keep it canon - using only references from the JA series - and the films, of course - to flesh out and support my conclusions. But the temptation is really terrific, to tweak a bit here and tint a bit there, and remold somewhere else - to remake him into the image that I want to see - but, more and more, I'm convinced that this is NOT the way I need to go. I'm not sure I can even pull it off - and remain entirely true to GL's original creation - but that's where we're headed at the moment. Like most of you, I love AU - love exploring the depths of the characters by placing them in places they've never been before but - just for now - I want to fill in some blank spaces - some canon blank spaces.

At any rate, I would cite this story as another one of those situations in which the outcome remains uncertain until the end; I can see that it would certainly qualify as speculation - but, if I reject clinging to the integrity of the original work - does it then become AU? Since the sources I am using are little more than vague hints and things left unsaid, I can hardly claim that my extrapolations are based on proven fact, can I?

Maybe our bottom line is that it's all fiction - all fantasy - and all, ultimately, living within our own minds - so each of us determines where to place our boundaries, and what we will and will not accept.

Amyway, unless something happens to change my mind, I intend to stick by my intention to present this work as part of the SW canon universe. Which is admittedly unusual for me, but I'm finding that I really CAN write canon. (Shrugs: Who knew?)

Lovely little debate here - inspiring equally lovely thoughts.

Next?

CYN

 

"Qui-Gon on quaaludes"

How many times do we have to say it... Qui-gon made brownies


" is my attempt to 'reverse engineer' - for lack of a better phrase - the origins of Obi-Wan Kenobi -

You said you're using YJA books? BUT they are just 'glorifided fan fic' aren't they? I mean.. if you want to get techinacle , the first time we meet Obi-wan is in TPM... you can run all over the place from there...

 

Breezy - Regarding the work of the uninspired Ms Watson, I agree completely that it is far more clumsy and less well crafted than most fan fiction. However, having said that, I do find the original account of the manner by which Qui-Gon finally took Obi-WAn as his padawan to be, somehow, viscerally satisfying. I also have no objection to the dark narrative concerning Xanatos. Though it's true that we are completely free to let our imagination run wild in formulating the history of any of these characters, there is just something that 'feels' right in this particular scenario - no matter how blandly written.

Note that I said the original account is satisfying; after the first two books, everything went rapidly to hell in a handbasket, if you catch my drift.

Why does it feel right? Don't have a clue, except that I have always watched that infamous TPM scene in the Council chamber, and watched the expression in those incredible eyes - and glimpsed what appeared to me to be very old, unhealed hurt - a product of wounds that happened early - and were buried deep, where they would never be entirely healed.

Fanciful, you say? Hey - what can I tell you? I'm a writer (by my own description, anyway) and I call 'em as I see 'em.

CYN

 

Ahh you see Cyn, I am unfamiliar with the books... I've only recently started poking into the pre AOTC Anakin stories (Oooohhh!! Siiiiinnnn... An ANI writer!

But Is'nt it true? That EU writers are REALLY nothing more than PAID fan fic writers with a little permission from the great flanneled one?


BTW, I've noticed an upsurge of violent fics as of late, stuff that makes even me kinda go ?????????.

What gives?

 

Hmmm. The Watson books are the only ones I actually do like, and have even been known to incorporate from time to time. They seem to get the characters right (although their plots tend to be a bit dopey), and that tends to be what I judge by.

 

The JA books are a good read - if you take as them are, which is a series of books for children, not fodder for the fanfiction machine and utterly obsessed fans.

 

May I point out that the Harry Potter books were written for children - that Lewis Carroll wrote for children, as did many other gifted authors - and managed to do so without talking down to anyone? I found the JA books - and now, the Jedi Quest books - to be paeans to Watson's fascination with Qui-Gon Jinn - and opportunities, in the latter, for Obi-Wan to repeat, incessantly, how much he wishes his Master was still among the living as he would surely know how to handle Anakin. Not to mention the fact that, always excepting the first two, I found they were clumsily written - even pedestrian - and extremely bland.

Nevertheless - to each his own, and everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I speak only for me in saying that I found them insulting to the intelligence of the average adolescent.

CYN