Saga How my disappointment with TLJ made me appreciate the 1-6 story

Growing up as a diehard OT fan, I never totally gravitated to the PT. I liked many aspects and hated many aspects, but the 1-6 story just never worked me years after ROTS came out. I readily admit I got sucked into the hype of the ST and enjoyed TFA as a launching point for the new trilogy. Yes, it wasn't original and it did feel like a tacked on Trilogy, but I was willing to give it another movie to see Disney work it all out.

As I have stated here, I did not like TLJ. In fact I hated the movie as I still have not seen it since opening weekend. But it forced me to reassess the PT and the 1-6 story, and it made me appreciate the narrative Lucas was telling. Yes I still have my quips with the PT, but I enjoy the 1-6 narrative now because it really does fit as one story, and nothing feels tacked on like the ST.

This is probably Disney's biggest failing is not incorporating the ST to fit with the 1-6 story. I wondered what the theme of the ST was? How was it relevant with the OT/PT? What was the point of the ST? That made me realize how much I took for granted the 1-6 story was telling. Yes, I always knew it was the story of Anakin Skywalker or the rise and fall and eventually redemption of Darth Vader, but I never appreciated it until I saw how Disney dropped the ball on the ST narrative.

I do wonder if many fans who took jabs at Lucas from 1999-05 are reassessing the PT like me, and ironically he may be redeemed after selling to Disney. Now in fairness to Disney, they do have Episode 9 to put it all together and maybe tie 1-9 story the same way as 1-6, but I highly doubt it the way JJ and RJ have kind of done their own thing. Maybe the PT fans will blast me with this post for being late to the party, or maybe they will welcome me with open arms. But I think Lucas may have gained more then 4 Billion dollars with that sale to Disney, he got alot of fans like me to reevaluate the PT.

 

I fear this might be a redundant threat, but in any case, I'm glad to read your post. And I'm happyto know that what Disney is doing (by showing absolutely no interest in tying the ST to the rest of the Saga) makes other people agree with what I have always defended: that the 1-6 story is a complete story that doesn't need (and doesn't allow for) any further episode.

 

If the mods want to merge this thread, I'm cool with that. I couldn't find a similar thread, but I'm sure there is something with the same thesis.

 

This thread probably won't last long... Anyways - Nothing anyone does with the new films will suddenly make the PT get "reassessed" If people didn't like them then they won't like them now regardless of what happens with the ST!

 

I think we need to reserve overall judgment until Episode 9 and see how it all fits as a cohesive saga. From a narrative standpoint, I think the Lucas 6 will always fit together but that isn't to say that the ST has no place. The prequels tell of the fall of Anakin Skywalker and the rise of the Empire, while the OT shows the redemption of Anakin and the demise of the Empire. The ST seems to be driving at balance--and what that means in the context of a new order. Look to the scene in TLJ where Luke recounts the failures of the old Jedi Order and how their hubris gave way to Sidious. From there, he gets into the cyclical and generational story of how light gave way to darkness with multiple Jedi masters training those who would turn to the dark side. Emerging out of all of this is the concept that they have to break the cycle and forge something new out of it--a more sustainable balance.

 

Agreed. I have always felt this as well, ever since hearing all the gripes about TFA. I feel that we will look back on the ST very differently, once the trilogy is complete and we see the entire story arc play out to its end. The PT was different, cos we all KNEW the end-so we didn't experience that kind of feeling, we got something totally different there: "how does it GET there?".

I wasn't old enough to experience the ongoing uncertainty with the OT, so I will defer to those who do there.

 

Mod Edit: You were warned.

 

...except that this is exactly what happened for the OP.

The latter is what usually happens. Welcome to our family of love!

 

My opinion of the prequel era films as dramatic films hasn't been revised.

My appreciation of the story they were trying to tell is unchanged.

 

Probably both.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: After all the crap he got over the years by some people, just because he chose to materialize his unique and original vision by telling his story of his fictional universe as he saw fit (as opposed to what they thought it should be), I'm enjoying the fact that Lucas gave those same people the biggest poetic justice only he could provide: his absence.

 

I can't relate to the desire to revise my impression of an older movie's pros and cons because a new movie is not to my liking.

 

Desire? Who said anything about desire? The point that's being made is that the perceived failings of the new trilogy put GL's narrative in a different light for the OP. Desire has little to do with it. It just happened.

I've personally been very pleased with GL's completed Star Wars Saga for years and it still stands firm as a self-contained work of narrative art as far as I'm concerned. I'm happy to see that more and more fans are finding a new level of appreciation for what he did, regardless of their feelings toward the new movies.

 

I always found the PT full of flaws, and still do, but the ST really put those flaws into a different perspective.

It’s more in the sense, I remember when I watched TPM, AOTC and ROTS I was bothered by some parts of the execution but still enjoyed the story and world building enough to want to read tie-in related material, whereas in this case, it feels that it’s not so much the execution or the plotting that bothers me, it’s the story and the world building that bothers me and doesn't make me enough interested in the tie-in related material. And that is perhaps the most annoying thing to me as a SW fan. So in comparison, the PT's shortcomings feel less bothersome compared to the ST's shortcomings.

I will say this though, both trilogies generated some of the most hilarious memes.

 

Actually. My appreciation of the ST helped put my general disappointment of the PT in proportion and put it behind me somewhat.

If there's a movie that I'm likely to enjoy coming around the bend then the disappointment can't bother me as much. But I can't ignore the flaws or re-evaluate the movie on that basis. I already spent a good part of decade trying to scrape an edifying subtext off the bones of those films before the ST even appeared on the horizon.

 

Before TFA and TLJ, I considered the OT story rather simplistic and very flawed because of it's story that was developed as Lucas went along. Also, there was a lot of unused potential, especially in TESB, and some things that looked good on paper, but weren't executed well, like ROTJ and it's story of a less developed culture beating an entire elite legion of the Empire. Underdog vs. the overdog story could, if made well, be a good story.

TFA and TLJ made me appreciate the OT more because, compared to this, it is richer story with good characters and meaningful motives for all sides to win their cause. All the themes presented in TFA and TLJ were there, in the OT, but although in less degree, they made more powerful impact.

Yes, the OT and TFA and TLJ tell basically 90% the same story, but the OT did it better. And now I appreciate it more.

 

I always liked PT because it actually has a better and more complex storyline compared to OT and ST. It's also my favourite era with so much potential and great world building (I wish Disney would give it more attention instead of milking the OT era).

I'm not going to say "oh no, the story was great, but the execution was terrible!!" because I don't "like them" despite their flaws, I like them because they are good movies and I wouldn't have cared about SW without them. They also enriched OT and give it more depth.

With ST, I actually don't like it or hate it. It's uninspiring and kind of bland, but it does have its good moments and I'm curious to see how it's going to end.

 

So I want to give you guys an update as my friend lent me TLJ BluRay as I gave it another shot (I have read many fans who hated it on first viewing, and then liked it better on the 2nd viewing. And I have to say I did like it better on 2nd viewing (the parts I had problem with weren't as bad, and there were certain scenes that I did like, especially the Luke/Leia reunion at the end).

But..............................

I still go back to my original post, and I just don't see how this Trilogy fits into the 1-6 story, as it still feels tacked on. Now as someone mentioned earlier in this thread that you can't fully evaluate the Trilogy until after Episode 9, and that is a fair point. But I still see the 1-6 story about the chosen one, the rise, fall, redemption of Darth Vader, the fall of the republic, the rise of the empire, the rise of Luke Skywalker and how he redeemed his father, and eventually the rebellion victory over the empire which ends in a celebration on Endor and around the galaxy. There is no doubt that is a complete story, and I keep asking myself how does 7,8,9 make the 1-6 story better, and does it even tie in with the big picture theme?

The ST essentially has 2 stories: The Resistance vs the First Order, and that is a retread of the OT story so it doesn't make the 1-6 story any better in that respect. The other story is the Light vs Dark or Rey vs Kylo Ren which does interest me, but it is still not clicking to a point where I say it makes the 1-6 story better or even worth it to continue that story. If JJ can craft something big picture about the Light and Dark that will tie the 9 movies together, then this could be a success. But that is very ambitious and I don't even know if he can pull it off, as I wonder if he will be more focused on writing the wrongs of Rey's heritage and Snoke's death to appease a part of the fanbase.

My ultimate question is about the 1-9 story and will it be worth it to sacrifice the 1-6 story? That is what I originally meant in that made me reevaluate the PT and the 1-6, because even though I have my problems with the PT, they do make the OT better, so in that respect it is worth it to take that 1-6 journey. In a strange way, I think the ST kind of works by itself and can probably be enjoyed in that context for a certain part of the fanbase, but I just don't know if it works in the 1-9 context.

 

I think the ST works best not as a continuation of Star Wars when looked at as a story that occurred between Episodes I-VI, but as a response to Star Wars as a story that was told to us between 1977-2005. While TFA represents a sort of "Platonic ideal" of what the series used to be, that in turn leads to TLJ serving as a critique of what it became along the way. And by that I don't mean a criticism, but rather an attempt to critically engage with the narrative and thematic decisions Lucas made between filming ANH and RotS. If Luke is the audience's PoV character in the OT, than his disillusionment with the Jedi in TLJ is in part due to him being privy to the same information we received regarding the nature of the Jedi Order and the Republic, and the true story of how the Empire rose to power and Anakin fell to the Dark Side.

I've come to a stronger appreciation of the PT as a result of the ST, but not because of disappointment, rather because the films have made the things I've taken issue with a part of the narrative, and asked the audience to engage with the films as more than vessels to deliver pieces of canon. We've been asked to evaluate why we expect the characters to be related to one another, and whether or not that's the right way to look at heroism, and what message that theme is saying. We've been asked to look at the Jedi in a more complicated way, and not blindly accept them as "the good guys" the way some do, but also not to dismiss them as flawed failures the way others do. We've also been asked to look at our hero's failure in a more human and uncomfortable way, rather than the relative stoicism we saw from Yoda and Obi-Wan.

The ST for me has made the Star Wars saga an altogether richer experience, not because it's this perfect continuation of the "Tragedy of Darth Vader" narrative Lucas turned the story into with the PT, but because of how it responds to the series as something that has been imagined, experienced, and reimagined over the course of four decades, and delving into what it means from a variety of subjective perspectives; all the new characters essentially view the events of I-VI in a completely different way representative of how different sects of fans view the series. That's not to say I don't think the ST works as a continuation of I-VI at all, because I think for the most part it does, but due to how I personally engage with the Saga (IV-VI, I-III) I'm primed to see it from this perspective. It's just a different point of view.

 

The nature of the Jedi Order has nothing that could make one disillusioned with it, specially for someone as selfless and compassionate as Luke. Hence the importance of him being a Jedi and striving to follow the Jedi way (which is the nature of the Jedi Order). That's what ROTJ was about and what TLJ deliberately ignored and went against.

 

TFA and TLJ have put the PT in a different light.
I still have some issues with the PT but am more appreciative of the trilogy.
I am not the same person I was when the PT first came out, when it ended, when TCW came out and during the release of the ST.
I've had plenty of experiences that have changed my world view.

Give it enough time, I'm certain that I can get TFA and TLJ to fit in the main Saga aside from the ST being a universe that Snoke set up, after destroying the main universe, to set up a universe where the OT Big 3 are ruined.

 

I don't necessarily agree with that. In Return of the Jedi, I see it as Luke specifically not following the Jedi way, but rather following his idea of what the Jedi should be. Obi-Wan and Yoda both made it clear that they saw his destiny as having to kill Vader for the good of the galaxy; this is later backed up in Revenge of the Sith when Yoda essentially tells Obi-Wan he's going to have to kill Anakin, which Obi-Wan justifies to himself and Padme. Neither think he's salvageable, and they pretty much tell Luke as much. Luke's refusal to kill his father, and his insistence that there's still light inside of him, goes against what we see of the Jedi Order from I-VI.

And I do think there's a lot to be disillusioned with the Jedi Order about, particularly their unhealthy practice of emotional detachment, the toxic way they deal with their emotions, and the arrogance and hubris they were prone to due to their inflated sense of importance in the role they saw themselves filling as maintainers of the Force's balance. The Jedi are unambiguously the heroes of the Saga, the PT particularly, and I'm not denying that, but they were also undeniably flawed and those flaws had never really been addressed. The Last Jedi took them to task for those flaws, and I think by the end brought Luke back to a place where he saw value in the "romanticized, deified" perspective of the Jedi he mocked earlier in the film. And I think this is the kind of Jedi we'll see Rey as going forward, one who follows her heart and her ideas of what a Jedi should be, rather than acting in accordance with a code or a bunch of rules. Like I said, it actually helped me appreciate the PT more by engaging with those films' narrative and themes in a way that the OT by circumstance could not.

 

Huh?! Luke was acting on fear and hate (which is the opposite of the Jedi way), until he realized what was happening and stopped. At the end, he declared that he'd rather die than fall. How is that not following the Jedi way? It's not "his idea" of it, it's what he was taught and is consistent with the teachings and moral guidelines of the Jedi in the PT as well.

That has nothing to do with the Jedi way. The Jedi way doesn't say "don't face/defeat/destroy the Sith". The Jedi way warns against attachment, fear, anger, hate, aggression, etc... The dark side, basically. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

The Sith needed to be destroyed, that's something that had to happen. The difference, and Luke's argument, is that he sensed the good in Anakin where Obi-Wan and Yoda did not. They saw him as no different from Sidious. And as far as they knew, he very might well be. And if Luke happened to be wrong, the whole endeavour would go to waste.

How? What does their opinion on Anakin's fall and situation has to do with the Jedi way?

Not letting attachments dictate one's actions is not an "unhealthy pratice". Quite the opposite in fact. Letting fear and attachment rule your life and decision-making is a recipe for disaster. Also, what exactly is "toxic" with the way they deal with emotions? Where exactly were they arrogant or had an "inflated sense of importance in the role they saw themselves filling"? You're not talking about a Jedi, you're talking about the Jedi Order, right? I would like to see some factual evidence that back those statements.

Of course they were. The flaws that some of them have are directly acknowledged by themselves in the movies. It's stated in the dialogue. And the flaws come to the surface precisely when they are not following the Jedi way. But the Jedi way is still the same, their teachings are still the same, and their decisions and actions are not influenced by the arrogance of some. That's all in the movies too.

The Jedi are not "deities" nor should they be viewed as such (or in any romanticized manner). They lead a selfless way of life, a life of sacrifice. The fact that they put Luke in a position of ignorant criticism by feeding into the recent 'blame the Jedi' bandwagon which is built in a fallacy shows a complete misunderstanding of what they are about and what they strived for.

It's the "code or a bunch of rules" that define the Jedi and make them who they are. What the Jedi are and aren't, along with their Way, is not something subjective to be cherry picked or left up for grabs. To do it, is to corrupt their very concept at the expense of personal fan fiction. Quite similar to the whole idea of 'gray Jedi'.

 

Pointing out that the Jedi failed in their mission statement and the fact that the Sith were born out of the Jedi isn't 'ignorant' or a 'fallacy'. It's overly harsh and iconoclastic to think they should end because of it, but the criticisms are the failures of the Jedi.

And yet they failed. Obviously the Jedi, as they were in the PT, failed as Yoda himself acknowledges. To not acknowledge that they could improve upon their ways simply ignores the ultimate resolution of ROTJ.

 

@PymParticles:

I mean this with all due respect - and I do respect your opinion/point of view on this - but making things that one took issues with the PT as a part of the narrative, is precisely one of the problems that I have with TLJ. People can have issues or reservations about a story/film/book's narrative, but I don't think a story should take issue with it's own narrative.

That's actually interesting. I think such a point of view contrast worked within the context of say, ROTJ, where you had Obi-Wan's view of Vader contrasting with Luke's. I'm just not certain that Luke's take-away lesson/view of the Jedi (PT-OT) works so well as a continuation of the I through VI story.

The thing about that is that I might accept the current ST as an 'alternate-timeline/universe' type thing....