PT How planned (by Palpatine) was the confrontation involving Anakin and Mace in ROTS?

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

George Lucas, ROTH commentary.

 

Nothing in my comment states he threw the fight. All I said was that he planned the confrontation and Anakin's interruption.

 

It wasn't?

There is plenty we can take a look at that Palpatine does to make sure Anakin is going to show up during that final confrontation...

First we look at what Palpatine says to Anakin after Anakin kills Dooku:

This is an important exchange for many reasons. First it shows that Anakin trusted Palpatine enough to tell him something that Anakin probably never told the Jedi. Also though, it shows that Palpatine is telling Anakin it's OK to act on emotion, to set aside his Jedi teachings, and act for personal reasons. This connects with the final scene in that Palpatine has planted it in Anakin's head that whatever may happen, Anakin, because of Palpatine's teachings, can find a reason to ignore his Jedi teachings, ignore orders from other Jedi, and act on emotion. There are plenty of examples between AOTC and ROTS where we see Palpatine telling Anakin not to listen to the Jedi. This is an important and purposeful piece to Palpatine's plan, because when it comes time Anakin will have to not listen to the Jedi, and do what he wants, and act on emotion and not his Jedi teachings, or the Jedi way.

Than we have the infamous opera scene.



Never mind the fact that Palpatine gets Anakin to openly admit that Anakin's trust of the Jedi has been shaken, there is absolutely nothing coincidental about Palpatine introducing Anakin to the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise. If Anakin told Palpatine about how his mother died, than it's a fair certainty that Anakin also said the same things to Palpatine that he said to Padme in the garage on Tatooine:

So it's a safe bet that Anakin has entrusted those same thoughts to his good friend and mentor, Palpatine. So, going back to the opera scene, again, it is no coincidence that Palpatine brings up a Sith Lord that had the power to stop people from dying. It's not luck, it's not chance, it's not switching to plan "B". Palpatine knows what vexes Anakin, Palpatine knows what eats at Anakin. The opera scene is once again planting a thought process into Anakin's head, that when the time is right, there is no way Anakin won't be able to ignore what was said!

Palpatine tells Anakin that there is a way to stop people from dying, that the Jedi won't teach him, that the only way to do it is to learn and use the Dark Side...

This further ensures that Anakin will be there when the final confrontation happens.

What Palpatine does next, is what connects all the above together and, in Anakin's eyes, makes Palpatine the most important person in the galaxy. That next thing is the revelation to Anakain that he (Palpatine) is the Sith Lord...



Again, none of this is luck, none of this is chance, or switching to plan "B", this is all premeditated by Palpatine...

Palpatine knows the Jedi will be coming to make sure Palpatine gives up his emergency powers.. So why does Palpatine basically tell Anakin he is the Sith Lord? What need is there for Palpatine to tell Anakin he is the Sith Lord they have been looking for? Palpatine already has setup the Jedi to come after him by telling them he will only give up his powers when Grievous is dealt with. So why tell Anakin he is the Sith Master? It's redundant isn't it? Well No it isn't... Because telling Anakin that he is the Sith Lord, is more about pulling Anakin into the final confrontation than it is about pulling the other Jedi into a final confrontation. Telling Anakin that he is the Sith Lord, a Sith Lord that knows the Dark Side, the Dark Side that Darth Plagueis used to keep people from dying, that, oh by the way, is a huge piece of Anakin's psyche... Well there is nothing coincidental about that, that isn't switching plans...

By telling Anakin that he a Sith Lord, Palpatine just made himself the most important person in the galaxy. Palpatine has told Anakin that he is more important than Mace, Obi Wan, Yoda, and even younglings...

Palpatine knows that after 10+ years of mentoring Anakin, nurturing him, telling him what he wanted to hear (not what he needed to hear).. 10+ years of telling Anakin that he shouldn't trust the Jedi, that they are jealous and holding him back... telling Anakin that the Dark Side is the only path to finding a way to save people from dying, and that the Jedi wouldn't tell him how it works, and then surprise, Palpatine's a dark side user that can help him learn that power...

All of that ensures that Anakin will be there at the final confrontation. Palpatine knows that Anakin won't listen to the Jedi if they tell him not to come, he knows that Anakin's attachment issue to Padme will be too strong for him to sit idly by.

Palpatine has been setting everything up for a very long time to ensure Anakin will be there, one way or another, when Palpatine decides to spring the final part of his trap on the Jedi.

 

Word. I don't think the average viewer is giving Lucas (or Palpatine ) enough credit.

When you pointed out Palpatine's use of Grievous in the film, and all it's repercussions, the script became much more intricate from my perception. Palpatine's line "I must say you're here sooner than expected" is actually pretty hilarious if you look at how much he knew.

 

Exactly! That simple line of dialogue from Palpatine falls in line with another of my favorite lines from him. When Palpatine is talking to the Separatist leaders he says:



Both lines mean different things to the characters he is talking too compared to what he is saying.

 

A few things I might add.

Yeah, Palps even brings Anakin and Obi-Wan back to Coruscant from the Outer-rim sieges by ordering himself kidnapped. He is luring Anakin back where he needs him.

Personally I don't think Palpatine would necessarily risk killing Skywalker here. In the novel it mentioned Sidious told Dooku; if Anakin is defeated by Dooku, they will let him go and try again when he is more powerful. I think Palpatine was pretty confident Anakin would win though. It is clearly a test, and only Palpatine knows the final stage of the test is the murder of Dooku.

Well said.

"Your majesty, stay here, where it's safe!"
"It is a volcanic planet. You will be safe there."
Seems Palpatine has a pretty loose definition of safe.

Plus he has the Jedi and the Senate gradually losing power relative to himself through the Senate's own votes. And Palpatine lures the Council to spy on himself through Anakin, setting up the Jedi as traitors; and in turn allowing him insider Jedi info with Anakin as his representative.

For some reason I'm reminded of Qui-Gon knowing Anakin would win the pod race.

Yup.
I know I've said this before, but this is an awesome observation.

And they are going to come to him even quicker this time, because through the situation Palpatine has them desperate and stressed. He is pushing their buttons, and it kind of all comes out when Mace, Palpatine and Anakin are alone.

My personal reading is Palpatine had a vision that Anakin would be there at the crucial moment, no matter what.

Agreed, the ROTS script is pretty explicit on this, I think.
I hadn't read the above part of your post before now, I think tbh my input in this post just retreaded what you've already said.

Edit - lol and now that I read it again I see the excerpt was from someone else's post. Don't mind me...

I've found it interesting in the past that Padme and Palpatine seem to be whom Anakin trusts most. And they are kind of the last bastions for Anakin's personas, when Padme dies he is fully Sith, when Palpatine dies he returns as a Jedi.

Exactly, it is stupid to think he didn't know exactly what he was doing when he reveals his identity. The only risk is that Anakin would kill him right there, but he is a risk-taker obviously. He is confident Anakin will make the "right" decision like you said.

True, more people need to read your posts on this thread. Edit - Sorry I cut this short earlier, I had to be somewhere.

 

palpatine is a gambler. and his gambles work...

he wasnt expecting mace overpowering him, it just happened, as Lucas said. Its kind of funny how some of you say it was all a carfuly crafted scheme that worked a 100%, when you have seen dozens of his schemes going wrong at some degree, and him then taking advantage of the new situations created, redirecting his plans.

Sidious does not control everything. He plans, gambles, and fastly thinks the best outcome when things dont go his way.

You have a clear example in the same movie. He wants Dooku to kill Obi Wan, then wants anakin to leave him to die. Yet his scheme doesnt work 100% as he planned, since Kenobi survives and Palp redesings from there.

The same happpened with Mace. He might had planned to toy with Windu until Anakin came, and then to play his begging man role... surely he wasnt expecting to be overpowered, but it happened. Yet, he pull a fast one from the situation and got the best of it.

No one puts themselves in this situation on porpouse,





Saying it was a scheme, and that Mace overpowered him it not necessarily contradictory. The novel shows it clearly, mace was facing palp with a handicap that he was not expecting and busted his vaapad, his jelous not so jedily love for the republic.

 

I dont buy the "Palpatine was faking it" theory.

Specially given there ARE (until Disney stepped in) canon explanatiom for the events.

1) Objection: "Mace wasnt that strong! He never gought at that level so Palpatine let him win!"

Answer: The Mace that fought Sidious had several advantadges normal Mace did not.

Vapaad is more powerful the stronger the darksider, furthermore it was the first time Mace gave himself to Vapaaf so completely, to this add thr fact thay Mace also had his own anger to boost Vapaad further. In addition an argument can be made for Mace unknowingly channeling Anakin's fear through Vapaad.

In addition to Vapaad, Mace had the advantadge of shatterpoints.

So yes, Mace was not on Palpatine's level, the issue is, this was not Mace as he normally is. He was HEAVILY boosted in this fight.

2) Objection: Sidious showed an entire different level when fighting Yoda. Also Yoda is stronger than Mace, the fact that he was even with Yoda, shows for sure Palpatine was faking it with Mace!"

Answer: If you look at Darth Plagueis novel, Plagueis blatantly states a Sith by having his lighting redirected at himself, can achieve another level and will also gain a decayed Sith look.

Taking in count that explanation, Palpatine actually received a power up in ROTS. He didnt fought Mace at the level he did Yoda because he didnt had that level yet, he got stronger.

 

Yes, Palpatine is the puppet master, he is pulling all the strings. Just like in AOTC when he wants the clone army found by the Jedi, he is the one that suggests Obi Wan. This is not accidental or a plan "B" scenario.

I have had others tell me about that excerpt from the book. I have a hard time with this because from the movie, it seems Palpatine is ready to move forward on his overall plan (order 66). To orchestrate such a huge plan as to allow himself to be caught so he can view Anakin's audition personally seems like a grand move to finally see if Anakin was ready. I have said it in other threads before, Anakin was not essential to Palpatine's overall plan. Order 66 was not dependent on Anakin turning. I think Palpatine was ready to move forward with or without Anakin. However, that's of course my opinion, and obviously from the perspective of the book (and canon) that seems to not be the case...

I agree with you...

"Safe and secure society"

Again I am in agreement. I just can't see how some come to the conclusion that Palpatine wasn't manipulating everything to a desired result. He wasn't switching his plan around or changing on the fly because things didn't work out the way he intended.

Thank You

I agree. I also think that Palpatine has the ability to use the Force to foresee certain events and how they play out. However, this aspect of his character is harder to nail down when it happens, thus making it a harder concept to touch upon to convince others just how precise and meticulous Palpatine's overall plan was. What is interesting about this aspect of Palpatine's character, is how fans are so dismisive of the possibility that Palpatine was using this ability. We all see Luke using it in the OT, we hear a few times in the OT how the Emperor has foreseen certain things (ESB and ROTJ). What seems to happen is that in the PT, Palpatine's ability to foresee events makes him so overconfident he forgets that the future is always in motion. His overconfidence becomes his weakness.

That is an interesting observation. When the good (Padme) dies, the evil is born... When the evil (Palpatine) dies, the good is born...

Thank You! Coming from such a prestigious member such as yourself, I take this in the highest regards... Much appreciated.

 

I haven't read this in a while.
Hoping the discussion isn't redundant.

 

I feel that he threw the fight- It's just too convenient that Palpatine was beaten by Mace mere moments before Anakin arrived. I also think that Palpatine made the situation more dire to Anakin's (and to Mace's) eyes when he fired Sith Lightning at Mace which forced him to deflect the lightning back towards Palpatine making him look weak and extraordinarily deformed, evoking Anakin's sympathies and creating just enough of a struggle to make Mace recognize the full dangers of his power and resort to kill him instead of arresting him which he planned to do again after cornering him. I think he planned the entire confrontation for all of the reasons that Mikemixus noted above.

 

Most likely, but it is subjective based on personal experience. Particularly ROTS is left fairly ambiguous at times.
Yes, @mikeximus made some great arguments for it, haven't seen him around in ages.

Regardless of personal taste or opinion, it makes a lot of sense that he at least foresaw Anakin would be there at some stage.
If you read the final script, even just watching the film, a lot seems to imply Palpatine saw that this confrontation would happen at some stage. I doubt he would bother letting it happen generally how he did if he didn't think it would be a great chance to snare Anakin. He already has the clones primed for Order 66, and while the Jedi need to make a move for him to basically frame them, I don't think he would take a risk like waiting in his office for the Jedi without a more specific major payoff planned. To me, at least.

 

Exactly. I think Palpatine (Darth Sidious the Patient) was an evil mastermind. But this was the part that was so brilliant about the film. Mace overpowers and bests Palpatine by lightsaber combat. This is something that Palpatine genuinely is surprised about. It's a brilliant moment where on the window ledge, he is forced back and Windu says "You are under arrest, my Lord!"

Palpatine was then able to think fast and manipulate what Anakin walked in on. And this was the most brilliantly told aspect to it. The fate of the Jedi and the galaxy was in Anakin's hand when he chose to betray them, and cut off Mace's hand.

I think Palpatine planned to a great extent, but his advantage over the Jedi was that his ability to adapt to each situation and still carry out his plan was near perfect. At the end, it still relied upon Anakin making a choice, otherwise Palpatine would have been dead then and there and it would have been "ended once and for all."

I think the aftermath is then played perfectly. Correctly labelling this as a Jedi coup/rebellion and declaring them all enemies of the Republic. However Palpatine's final moves in this grand chess game are about turning Anakin. I suppose either way he's going to resist and attempt to frame the Jedi, but it almost did go wrong. The commentary you have posted says as much on ROTS, that Palpatine was beaten by a lightsaber. I even like the fact that in the Yoda fight, it is extremely close.

Yoda actually almost beats him as well. It results in a stalemate, with Palpatine having the luck to fall somewhere with a bar to hold onto, and poor Yoda, much lighter thrown somewhere he has nowhere to grip and prevent his much further fall. Couple that with the fact that Clone Troopers are on route and Yoda decides to retreat. No doubt it further cements the Jedi as would be killers and enemies and I'm sure the Emperor wastes no time in further using this as evidence that these Force wielding beings cannot be allowed to disrupt galactic peace.

 

I think Windu had him beat and placing him under arrest. I doubt Palpatine would have guessed Anakin would have shown up just in the nick of time to make the save. Windu was no slouch with the lightsaber. Palpatine couldn't hang in that arena with him

 

I just read this last page and I have to say that @mikeximus' posts are wonderful.

I just wanted to add the notion (which may have been mentioned in the previous 4 pages) that I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Sidious to have felt Anakin approaching. He has a strong bond with Anakin, and his anguish was so heavy and intense, that he must have felt him when he took the decision to go and see what is happening. That might have affected his responses and actions towards the end of the fight with Windu.

Palpatine/Sidious/Emperor is truly a magnificent character, and the part below is shown so freaking well over the PT:

 

What makes Palpatine/Sidious/Emperor such a truly magnificent character is even the audience doesn't know for sure how powerful he is and what part of the story happens because of his manipulation and what is him reacting on the fly. Debates like this tread are that character effecting the real world and manipulating our opinions. It's pretty amazing.

 

I feel like a lot of people seem to think that Sidious is weak and dumb and got everything he did by sheer luck.
He loses his light saber seconds before Anakin steps into the room, to me that timing is just too perfect to be coincidence. If Vader and Luke can feel each other's presence on different spaceships in ROTJ, it seems reasonable to think that Sidious can feel Anakin's presence in the same building. And he looks so frightened and helpless after losing his light saber when he has no reason to be scared (he can just use force lightning), so it's clearly all an act to me.

I agree with most of post#41, so I'm just going to quote some key sections instead of restating everything:

Also, there is no "what if" Yoda was there too. If Yoda and Windu were both present in Coruscant, Sidious would not have revealed the location of Grievous, so the Jedi would not have requested him to give up his emergency powers, and he'd still be playing the nice chancellor who loves democracy. He didn't spend all those years creating battles all over the galaxy just to screw up at the end by confronting the Jedi before the time was right.Yes it's possible that he can make a mistake by overlooking a detail (such as the possibility of Obi-Wan surviving and using Padme to find the location of Anakin and crippling him), but the presence of Yoda in Coruscant is no "detail" anyone would overlook.

 

About Palpatine,

Quite a few here have argued that Palpatine planned/foresaw EVERYTHING.
That in TPM the plan was always for Padme to come to Coruscant.
And in AotC the plan was for the two attempts on Padme to fail, for Zam to get caught, the dart to lead to Kamino, Obi-Wan would got there, track Jango to Geonosis and so on.

I don't think so, I think Palpatine being clever is shown when he adapts or changes his plans due to changed circumstances.
In TPM, he did not not plan for Padme to arrive but decided to use her being there and thus to het her to issue the call against Valorum.
And in AotC he did want Padme dead but when she survived two attempts, he sent her off-world to stop her interfering with his plans.
That Palpatine is good at making plans but he isn't locked into them and he can think on his feet.

But a problem I have is that Palpatine is not clever as much as the Jedi/senate are really dumb.
That his plans works is large part due to his opponents being very dim.

Take the Mace thing, if Mace had been less stupid and realized that this was a big problem and called up Yoda and a few other masters and informed them. And they made a plan beyond "Let's go in there, sword drawn."
Say calling Yoda back to Coruscant and they would go together to confront Palpatine.

Or if Anakin had been with the rest form the start.
Anakin was all for an arrest and if Palpatine charged at them, he could fight back out of instinct.

Other times his plans make no sense unless you assume that he can foresee EVERYTHING.
Like the start of RotS, he takes huge risks just so that he can get Dooku and Anakin to fight and his plan was filled with uncertainties and could go bad in a large number of ways.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Yes I agree Windu should have informed all the Jedi masters before trying to arrest Sidious. That way, even if he gets killed (if Windu doesn't show up in the next few minutes, Sidious would probably try to pick up a fight before Yoda can get back to Coruscant), at least everyone would be aware of the situation and wouldn't be so caught off guard during Order 66. He underestimated Sidious's power; he thought the four of them would certainly be enough to take him down (Anakin didn't tell him that Sidious intentionally revealed himself as a Sith), and that the only variable was when that happened, so he was trying to act as quickly as possible before Sidious has a chance to do more harm.
I wouldn't say that Sidious just turned out to be lucky because Windu just happened to make a wrong decision though. They've worked together for 10+ years (10 years between Ep. 1 and Ep. 2, anyone know how many years between Ep. 2 and Ep. 3?), so Sidious has a good grasp of Windu's personality. Sidious knows that Windu would most likely do that, otherwise he would have made different plans. So saying Sidious's plans wouldn't have worked under a different situation (i.e. cautious Windu) is a bit irrelevant, because Sidious made his plans based on the current situation that he has so carefully observed.

I don't think Anakin being present since the start would make much of a difference. Yes Anakin would fight him initially, but it would still end up with Sidious seemingly at the mercy of Windu.

 

Great point. 3 years between 2 and 3. So that's 13 years. 3 of which are war time.

There might have been a tactical reason for Mace not to inform all the Jedi. It's a bit of a stretch, but if Palpatine is the Sith Lord, Mace might realize that their lines of communication are no longer secure. Not sure what that would mean. Sidious could block transmissions, send a fake counter transmission about Mace, or Mace thinks he still has some element of surprise and reporting to Yoda would tip off Palpatine. And really isn't Palpatine laying a trap by staying in his office alone? Wouldn't Mace think, if Palpatine knew the Jedi were going to get him that the Chancellor would take some sort of precautions. Have hundreds of Clone Troopers protecting him. Go away somewhere safer. etc.

And like you said Mace is more than confident that he and those three other Jedi are more than a match the Sith Lord. A lot of that confidence must come from being around Palpatine so much for 13 years without detecting his power. Makes me wonder if he totally believes what Anakin told him or Mace thinks Palpatine is more of a Sith scholar powerful Force user.

When Palpatine returns to Coruscant with Darth Vader's burnt body, there are all those Red Clone Troopers protecting the walkway. Are they there for spectacle or there to protect Palpatine incase Yoda or another Jedi survivor showed up?

 

Hmm good point, I didn't think of that. If Windu wanted to be extra cautious though, he could arrange for another Jedi in the temple to inform all the Jedi masters of the situation while he is fighting Sidious (it should take less than one minute to make this arrangement). That way if he fails, there's at least a chance that the other Jedi masters would have gotten the message and take precautions. But it's understandable that he didn't think of this, the revelation that their greatest enemy is the chancellor alone is shocking enough, and he was trying to act quickly.

They had their guns out and were facing outwards, so I'd say were there to protect Palpatine and Vader from anyone who might be against the Empire.

 

Good point. Mace sort of did that with Anakin. Had Mace not come back Anakin would have known what happened and could spread the word.

 

I also want to add a piece of evidence that suggests that Sidious likely didn't use his full power the first time he used force lighting on Mace.
We can compare Anakin's response during the two times. On the first time, all Anakin did was close his eyes and turn away.

But on the second time, Anakin almost fell. Admittedly he might have been slightly closer this time, but to lose his balance when the lighting wasn't even directed at him is still an indication of how immensely intense it was.


In addition, we see later that Sidious's full power lighting could blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands.

 

I believe that it's been confirmed by George Lucas in the ROTS commentary that Palpatine was feigning weakness once he starts attacking Windu with Force Lightning unless he brings it up after Palpatine stops firing the lightning and says "I can't hold on any longer". Any direct commentary text available?

 

But did Lucas actually ever say that Windu defeated Palpatine?