Saga How the story of the sequel trilogy fits into the Saga to create a single narrative *TLJ Spiolers*

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by JTP, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. JTP

    JTP Jedi Youngling

    Jan 19, 2018
    Like a lot of people, I had some trouble seeing how Episode VIII, and the Sequel Trilogy as a whole will fit into the story of the first 6 episodes. At first, it seemed like the ST films were just a continuation that kind of “reboots” star wars for the next generation, but that didn’t make a lot of sense. Sure, the new characters can be used in future movies, but Episode IX is supposed to be the end of the Skywalker saga. The climax of a story arc that ties all 9 movies together.

    The new movies talk about events of the past 6 movies, but how do they connect? After watching Episodes VII and VIII many many times, I think they have given us enough clues and call-backs to Episodes I-VI to piece together what may be going on.

    Stay with me, this might get long, I’ve included all references from episodes I-VIII to back up the main points.

    Again, *****************************The Last Jedi spoilers below*********************************

    Main points / tl;dr
    -As others have said, the theme of this trilogy is bringing the force into balance. The prophecy of the chosen one, and how it may have been misread will come into play
    -Rey is either part of the skywalker bloodline or the next chosen one, and no one is telling her.
    -Anakin, and Luke, even though they took different paths, failed for similar reasons
    -Rey will restore balance. Probably with the help of Ben Solo.

    Bringing balance to the force.

    -This is the underlying connection between all 3 trilogies. Even if Luke didn’t know it in the Original Trilogy, That’s what Yoda and Obi-Wan were setting him up for. And he sure seems to understand a lot more about balance by TLJ.

    -The first lines of dialogue in the ST are Lor San Tekka talking about bringing balance to the force.

    “This will begin to make things right.
    I've traveled too far, and seen too
    much, to ignore the despair in the
    galaxy. Without the Jedi, there can
    be no balance in the Force.” - Lor San Tekka
    *Also want to point out the use of the word despair here...which is the opposite of hope.

    The only talk of the balance was in the Prequel Trilogy. Even then, we didn’t get a lot of information about it. According to the Jedi, the prophecy states that the chosen one will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force. We don’t hear much more than that until episode III when Yoda states the the prophecy may have been misread.

    {speculation}Perhaps the chosen one’s destiny is not to vanquish the dark side, but to embrace it and control it, just as they have done with the light.

    In TLJ, Look at the mosaic in the temple on Ach-To It is a half light / half dark jedi...balance. He is meditating and also holding what looks to be a lightsaber...balance

    Also, when Rey is in Snoke’s throne room she first tries to take her saber back, which doesn’t work, Then Snoke shows her the transports being blown up, which angers her...then she takes Kylo’s saber and makes an aggressive move toward Snoke. To which he replies, that she had the spirit of a 'true Jedi' or perhaps a Jedi who commands the light and the dark

    Then there’s...

    “Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.” - Kylo Ren

    The first part of this quote closely echos advice that Yoda gives Anakin in ROTS. “Train yourself to Let Go of everything you fear to lose” The second part seems to suggest that if the past won't let go, you may have to do something about it….balance

    Rey is part of the Skywalker bloodline

    The Force Awakens spends an enormous amount of time and effort making you think Rey is a Skywalker. Then, (on the surface), it seems like TLJ spent it’s time telling you she’s nobody special. But maybe from a certain point of view, TLJ actually just gives you a few more clues she’s a Skywalker.

    Here is the list of clues and references for TFA and TLJ. I may have misread some, some may have double meanings, and some may be a stretch, but when you combine them all, I think the evidence is there.

    From TFA:

    -Rey looks similar to Padme/Leia/Shmi
    -Rey is a naturally gifted pilot
    -Rey is mechanically inclined
    -Rey and Luke both describe the falcon as garbage/junk the first time the falcon is shown in TFA and ANH
    -When it is reported to Kylo Ren that the droid escaped on a stolen freighter, The officer adds that they were accompanied by a girl. Kylo is very interested to know" What Girl!"
    Why would a girl running around with the droid that has the map to Skywalker trigger Kylo. does he know a girl that is connected to Skywalker?
    -At 52 minutes. After Rey bypassed the compressor Han gives Rey a weird look and says "huh" like he just made a connection or an “ah-ha’ moment
    -At 54:30 Han gives Rey another look after she talks about never seeing this much green. It almost looks like he feels guilty about that statement for a second.
    -At 56 minutes - After Han smiles at learning Rey’s name, he looks like he's trying to make up a story to keep Rey around.. So he offers her a job on the falcon... He just got the falcon back like 10 minutes ago. How could he have been thinking of bringing on a 2nd mate who appreciates the falcon. He’s just trying to keep her around and not let her go back to Jakku.
    -1:02:30 - Maz knows something is up and asks Han very directly and seriously " who’s the girl?” She even waits until Rey leaves the table.
    -1:04:30 The lightsaber calls to Rey. Maz even says the "saber was Luke's, and his father's before him, and now it calls to you".
    -Maz tells Rey, whomever you're waiting for on jakku, they're "never coming back". "But there's someone who still could..."Then Rey says 'Luke' (ding ding! Luke could still come back, but has told Rey and R2-D2 he’s “never coming back”) Then Maz says ”the belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead.” ...basically he’s not coming back for you….you have to go to him
    -1:08:00 Rey runs off not wanting anything to do with the saber. Maz knows Rey has to take the lightsaber, she wants to say something, but stops herself from talking. Later she brings Han and Finn down to get them to give her the lightsaber
    - When the heroes arrive at the resistance base, Han has already told Leia about Rey by the time Finn came to ask for help finding Rey. Might be important if that was one of the first topics of conversation.
    - 1:24:00 C3P0 says R2D2 has been in low power mode since Luke went away. The only people who are not there at the resistance base are Rey, and Luke... But, when Rey arrives later, R2D2 magically wakes up.
    -1:39:00 - Han says, with a smile. They “won't leave without her”. to Finn
    -1:53:00 - Anakin’s/Luke’s lightsaber goes to Rey instead of Kylo
    -2:00:30 - Rey and Leia have a moment like they know each other. even though they have never met, supposedly, and Leia was only told about Rey a few hours earlier.
    -2:04:38 - Chewie gives Rey a weird look on the falcon on the way to Luke’s island

    From TLJ
    -51:00 - Luke says he's only seen this raw power once before in Ben solo. It didn’t scare him before, it does now. Unless they're changing the dynamic of how force sensitivity works, This means Rey is of equal strength to Ben either by being a Skywalker, or the next 'chosen one'
    -1:11:00 just reminding everyone that Luke and Leia can communicate through the force, just like Rey and Kylo.
    - 1:00:00 Luke mentions his mighty Skywalker blood…
    - 1:12:00 - Kylo Ren: when explaining why Luke betrayed him 'he sensed my power... As he senses yours'.
    -1:14:00 - The cave and repeating Reys. I think this is representing the lineage of the Skywalker's making the same mistake over and over and failing. None of them could overcome their attachment. When Rey touches the wall asking to see her parents, she sees herself on the other side. It’s trying to tell her that if she keeps needing her parents, she would just be following the succession of failure before her
    - 1:17:00 - Kylo and Rey can touch through the force. I wonder if luke and Leia could ever do that? Hmmm
    - 1:51:00 After a struggle to pull the saber away from each other, the lightsaber breaks in half. Does that mean Rey and Kylo’s pull strength was exactly equal?
    - 2:08:00 - How about that, Luke can physically touch Leia’s hand through the force projection and give her the dice.
    -Rey and Kylo can still use their force link after Snoke is dead

    If Rey really is a Skywalker, it seems like most of the OT characters know it, and probably Kylo as well. So why is no one saying anything?

    Because she is not ready.

    To understand why, you have to look at the past failures of the Skywalkers...

    Failures of the past and repeating mistakes

    Let’s start with Anakin. His failure and fall to the dark side happened for several reasons. The main reason being his attachment to his mother, and Padme. The Jedi knew of these tendencies right away.

    - From TPM
    YODA : “Afraid are you?”
    YODA : “See through you, we can.”
    MACE WINDU : “Be mindful of your feelings…”
    KI-ADI : “Your thoughts dwell on your mother.”
    ANAKIN : “I miss her.”
    YODA : “Afraid to lose her..I think.”
    ANAKIN : “What's that got to do with anything?”
    YODA : “Everything. Fear is the path to the dark side... fear leads to
    anger... anger leads to hate.. hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you.”

    Yoda even lays it out for him in ROTS

    YODA: “Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side”
    ANAKIN: “I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.”
    YODA: ”Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.”
    ANAKIN: “What must I do, Master Yoda?”
    YODA: “Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.”​

    Combine that with Palpatine stroking Anakin’s ego about how great and powerful he is, creating mistrust between he and the jedi, and implying that only the dark side has the power to save Padme. It’s easy to see how he could fall to the dark side. He wouldn’t let go because he thought he was powerful enough to save her

    “You don't need guidance, Anakin. In time, you will learn to trust your feelings. Then you will be invincible. I have said it many times: You are the most gifted Jedi I have ever met….I see you becoming the greatest of all Jedi, even more powerful than Master Yoda.” -Palpatine

    "All those who gain power are afraid to lose it. Even the Jedi.”...”The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power.” - Palpatine

    “Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. you must embrace a larger view of the Force.” -Palpatine

    “Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.” - Palpatine

    Next is Luke.
    If we believe Luke In TLJ when he tells Rey that “for a while there was balance.” Then it looks like he or/and Anakin successfully restored balance at the end of ROTJ...for a time. But Luke failed to maintain it and his eventual failure was because he did not heed Yoda’s advice or learn from his mistakes

    “always in motion, the future is” -Yoda

    Much like Anakin seeing Padme’s death, Luke saw Ben’s future and that he would destroy everything he loved. He didn’t want to let go. So he, like his father thought he could use his power to change the future. Even if he didn’t follow through, the damage was done and the balance was lost.

    Ok, so what does this have to do with everyone keeping Rey in the dark

    Everything. Imagine if Luke had listened Yoda and Obi-Wan in ESB and not gone to Cloud City. And was a fully trained Jedi when He faced Vader. {speculation} With that lesson learned, he may have been able to maintain the balance. So either Yoda and Obi-Wan got lucky with how they trained Luke, or they have learned from the mistakes in Anakin’s training

    Everyone in the know purposely lies to Luke to keep him from knowing his family’s past, and his importance. R2 and Obi-Wan are old friends, but play like they don't know each other when they meet in ANH. Obi-Wan tells him a little about his father, but not the whole truth. Only as much as he needed to start his journey. R2 tells him nothing. Yoda tells him nothing, And is even reluctant to confirm it when Luke asks about his father directly. Yoda intended to keep Luke in the dark either forever, or at least until Vader was dead. And for some reason he thought Vader wouldn’t tell Luke

    "Unexpected this is, and unfortunate" -Yoda

    And why is that?

    "Not ready for the burden, were you" - Yoda

    He wasn’t ready.

    By not telling Luke and Rey about their lineage, they don’t burden them with the sins of the father, and the weight of being the new hope for the galaxy. This allows them to feel more like they are forging their own path rather than handing them a bunch of emotional baggage and high expectations.

    Plus, TLJ takes place immediately after TFA, so the entire time span of the sequel trilogy so far is at best a few weeks. Might be a little soon to spring all of that family drama on her.

    There are also hints in TLJ that Luke is being deceptive.

    -15:00 Luke throws the lightsaber to distract Rey, then locks himself in his hut and changes out of his Jedi gear and into hermit gear. They even highlighted it with a shot of him nicely folding his robe and putting it away
    -1:21:00 As soon as Rey pulls away in the Falcon, in the next shot, Luke has his Jedi gear back on….strange
    -1:39:00 Snoke: “Give me everything” - reading Rey’s mind
    -1:42:00 Snoke: (in response to the information he gained from Rey’s mind) “I did not expect Skywalker to be so wise.” He must have done something very right to get that kind of praise for what seemed like a lackluster training session

    Kylo Ren has different motivations for decieving Rey. This one’s pretty obvious. He’s dangling the carrot; who her parents are, in order to manipulate her
    Much like Palpatine does with Anakin
    Much like Snoke does with Kylo at the beginning of TLJ.

    -17:00 - Snoke talks about weakness being a sharp roll tool when properly manipulated. Then goes on to try and use Kylos fear of not living up to Darth Vader against him.
    -1:12:00 Kylo talks about Rey's parents and how they threw her away like garbage. Then he tells her she can't stop needing them and it's her greatest weakness.
    1:32:00 - Kylo reminds Rey that he knows who her parents are right before they get to Snoke. So she has it on her mind, setting her up to manipulate her later.
    -1:48:00 - Kylo now tries to break down Rey so he can control her. He says her parent were filthy junk traders, and she has no place in this story, she comes from nothing... She's nothing. He says this unconvincingly. But then says...'not to me' and wants her to join him

    -{speculation] maybe from a certain point of view Luke could have been considered a junk trader. He spent a lot of time chasing down Jedi artifacts after ROTJ, Kylo may consider those artifacts junk.

    -[also speculation] If Rey is the next chosen one, maybe Luke found her while searching for jedi artifacts and “bought” her from her parents for drinking money

    So now the question is how she will fulfill her destiny.

    If we are to believe Luke when he tells Rey that there was balance for a while after the ROTJ, then let’s look at how it was achieved.

    I’ve seen arguments about who was really responsible for bringing balance to the force, Anakin or Luke. But now I’m convinced it was the combination of both of them.

    Luke (the light) defeats Vader and simultaneously saves Anakin by briefly giving in to the dark side.
    Vader (the dark) defeats the emperor and saves Luke by giving in to the light.

    This is the blueprint for how I think Rey and Ben will restore balance. They even hint at it in TLJ.

    “Ben, when we touched hands, I saw you future. Just the shape of it but solid and clear. You will not bow before Snoke. You'll turn.“ -Rey
    “I saw something too…When the moment comes, you’ll be the one to turn. You’ll stand with me.” - Kylo Ren

    Rey is almost right, he just didn’t turn. And Kylo may be talking about a moment in episode IX


    Luke Skywalker: "I came to face him, Leia. And I can't save him."
    Leia Organa: "I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone."
    Luke Skywalker: "No one's ever really gone."

    So Luke can’t save him, but that doesn’t mean no one can save him.

    *just another quick note. Another character suggests another way to look at how both Luke and Anakin restored balance at the end of ROTJ.

    Rose: “That’s how we’re going to win, Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.”

    So that’s what I’ve got, I could be totally over thinking it, but it was fun to think about.

    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  2. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 3, 2002
    I think making the ST was always going to be difficult without is feeling like an add on. I have to keep reminding myself about my initial reaction when I saw ROTJ in '83. It was "ok Vader and the Emperor are dead, but what about the rest of the Empire?" ROTJ never felt like an entirely satisfactory ending.

    Anyway, as for the story and arc of the ST, I see it as finally wiping away the past that didn't work in order to move forward. It's a form of redemption. Luke brings an end to the old Jedi order and his nephew (hopefully) will bring an end to the remnants of the Empire so that by the end of IX there will be the first Jedi of the New Order (Rey) and a new Republic or some other form of government in place.

    By its very nature I think it has to be reflective and to look back at the past but with a view to moving forward.
    Darth Downunder and Outsourced like this.
  3. Son of a Bith

    Son of a Bith Jedi Master star 4

    Feb 28, 2013
    How is it that you have time stamps for TLJ?
    Darth-Seldon likes this.
  4. Jedi of Baker Street

    Jedi of Baker Street Jedi Knight star 1

    Dec 28, 2015
    JTP, I like your post. I just simply don't have faith that the current regime have put as much thought into this as you have. [face_dunno]
    Palp_Faction likes this.
  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    The prequels never said that the chosen one's destiny was to vanquish the dark side. They only linked the fulfillment of the prophecy with the destruction of the Sith.
  6. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 10, 2005
    I appreciate the effort, but I really can't see the third trilogy as anything but a new narrative.
    Balance was restored in ROTJ. Luke acknowledges this ("For many years, there was balance"). So, this is not a case of the prophecy having been misread. Anakin destroyed the Sith and then there was balance. If the point of the new trilogy is that balance is restored again, then it really isn't much more than an extension/reimagining of ROTJ.
    oierem and {Quantum/MIDI} like this.
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    That's why Lucas didn't see the need for one, for the longest time. He only really did because he wanted to keep his studio going without laying people off. Even setting aside the Chosen One plot, the six films that he was involved in told a singular narrative without feeling tacked on to each other. And this was after abandoning his earlier plans for 22 films, or twelve films that were spread out over a large period of time. Lucas wisely saw that the story needed to be more confined together through a narrative, hence making Anakin the narrative and not just Luke. The only way the ST could avoid this was to have two trilogies, which would carry the narrative forward. One about the rise of Snoke and one about Rey.

    The old EU didn't have this problem because it was set up well before the PT, that there was a lot of stories before the era of the Skywalker clan. That's why you could go from "Dawn Of The Jedi" to "Legacy: Extremes" and have the narrative be all over the place. The ST feels like what "Legacy" would feel like without "The Truce At Bakura" through "Crucible".
    Lulu Mars likes this.
  8. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2009
    Absolutely. And I still believe the same: the PT and the OT form a single narrative that has a clear beginning and ending. There was literally no way to add a ST which could be part of the same single story. That's why Lucas denied any possibility of making one (which I'm very happy about it) and he never had a serious personal interest in making it (I do believe he mostly decided to go ahead with the ST to be able to sell the company to Disney).

    In any case, to the original question of this thread my answer is simple: "how does the story of the ST fit into a single narrative?". It doesn't.
    {Quantum/MIDI} and Lulu Mars like this.
  9. ralfyman

    ralfyman Jedi Youngling

    Jan 9, 2018
    ST generally rehashes OT.
  10. {Quantum/MIDI}

    {Quantum/MIDI} Force Ghost star 5

    Dec 21, 2015
    The ST could have been very connected to the previous movies actually. We see this with the Art of TFA and Lucas’s ideas on the matter.

    I just think he didn’t need to sell Lucasfilm.
    Lulu Mars likes this.
  11. Darth Bridge 167

    Darth Bridge 167 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Nov 13, 2017
    My crazy idea was to have Rey being the one that ends the Force by sacrificing herself at the end of Episode 9, as she could be the true chosen one. The narrative of the SW Trilogies is that events keep repeating themselves, as Darth Vader turned bad and now his grandson had done the same. While TLJ touches on some of those themes with Luke seeing this endless cycle, I don't know if Rian Johnson was able to stick the landing with that in the movie (I have to see it a few more times). Luke Skywalker was essentially saying what Kay said to Michael in Godfather 2, "This....must all end!!!"

    That would explain Rey's powerful force abilities without any training, and she could end this cycle (just as Ripley did in Alien 3) and the Force altogether so we don't keep seeing the next generation Darth Vader. I'm sure this story would not sit well with many fans, so I never expected it to make to the big screen, but it would have been a ba**sy move by Disney.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  12. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 12, 2012
    I see the Sequel Trilogy as the fallout of the destruction of the Sith and the Force being balanced. The rules for the Force have gone sideways. Dark siders spring up from the unknown and corrupt the latest in the Skywalker bloodline. Things go wrong, Luke Skywalker has a moment of dark instinct, proving that the Skywalker line will always tapdance with darkness, the last Skywalker turns into the dark side.

    The Force needs someone who isn't a Skywalker to counteract as darkness rises and light to meet it.
    It is Plan B.
    It turns out to be Rey.

    So she has to insert herself into this crazy, generational story that she has no part in and try to meet up with the legends, expectations and raw power. Literally the last Skywalker tells her "You have no place in this story, you're nothing." But she has to because it is the will of the Force, going all the way back to when Qui-Gon mentioned it.

    (If Ep IX ends with the death of Kylo, that is the end of the Skywalker saga. We've seen it from top to bottom. And it got real messy there for a bit)
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Unless he impregnates Rey first.

    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  14. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 12, 2012
    Kylo could totally have a kid stashed away somewhere too (if the Skywalker line doesn't end with him). Aside from a shot of him rolling over in bed years ago, we've literally only seen him for, like, 4 days. And he was a tad busy.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018