main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

  2. The Boards Are Now Reopened For Business:

    READ THIS: your ability to post here depends upon it.. See the new rules thread here. Bans can and will be handed out to anyone who doesn't abide by the forum rules.

ST How TROS Recontextualizes The Sith

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by EntechednReformatted, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    So, I'm just going to work through some thoughts here as I grapple with some new information from this latest movie.

    So, it's my understanding that the Emperor seems to have been using something similar to the mind-transfer trick from Dark Empire, except instead of clones, he's been using his own Sith apprentices. Kill your Sith Master in anger, get possessed by him. So it seems that the character we know as Palpatine is something far older, and is only wearing Palpatine's body and using his name. Before that, this ... being ... was Plagueis, and his master before that, and on and on back through ... centuries? Millennia?

    So, obviously this would require concealing the truth from the apprentices you intend to, you know, take. You'd want them to think that they would be able to eventually overthrow you, without realizing that this moment would mean their doom. This Master has been doing this a long time, and is clever enough to plant this seed early in Anakin with the tale of Plagueis being killed in his sleep by his apprentice. See? The apprentice takes over for the master. It's the natural order. Right? (Sucker.)

    So, this line of thinking suggests a lot of concealed menace in this ROTS line later: "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved [and I am that one] but if we work together [sucker] I know we [meaning YOU] can discover the secret [and the secret is that I am going to take everything from you: your body, mind, soul, power, identity, even your legacy ... all MINE.]" No wonder Palpatine practically licks his lips when he first meets Anakin in TPM.

    It's an ultimate expression of greed, the heart of the dark side. And it's such a contrast to the way Jedi view their apprentices ... we are what they grow beyond. I think I love it.
     
  2. Vader fan 99

    Vader fan 99 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 6, 2019
    I really like that theory!
     
    Darth Caliban likes this.
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    While I'd like to keep "the Palpatine kid born on Naboo"'s backstory, and personality - I could definitely see this kind of possession being standard operating procedure for the Sith.

    I'd go with

    "sometimes the master wins, sometimes the apprentice wins, but no matter what, the being knows everything the master and apprentice does."

    In short, Palpatine is a gestalt, of every Sith for the last 1000 years- but the Palpatine personality at least dominates the gestalt.
     
  4. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    If he is using someone else's body, then it doesn't make sense why he is still using a different name, at least not on public, they still know him as Palpatine behind closed doors. If he was actually someone else, he would at least use his original name when he is not on public. Or mention about the old times as he experienced originally. I don't think that's the way, it could be metaphorical.

    There is another issue, if the master has the power of every previous Sith lords and their experiences, how can apprentice actually wins? They can't. That doesn't make sense. Especially when Sidious says that to Yoda that ''Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us''. He is talking about another individual, not a living being that he will possess its body.

    There is also Darth Bane, and it definitely doesn't look like he passed his consciousness to the next apprentice.



    Bane: ''I chose to pass my knowledge on to only one.''
    Yoda: ''Dead you're already.''
    Bane: ''You do not fear me?''
    Yoda: ''No. Exist, you do not anymore.''
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  5. MaverickJedi85

    MaverickJedi85 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2019
    I think the whole "body possession, trying to find the power/techniques to cheat death, midichlorian manipulation, "absorving" Sith ghosts", etc. was mainly Sidious, not standard Sith. Plagueis started it, but it was Sidious who made a Sith career out of it. At some point, Palpatine fully realized he was a mortal human destined to die, so that's why he became obsessed with cheating death, especially after ROTS, when he had achieved it all in terms of politics/militarism. He was also incredibly arrogant/egomaniacal, and the idea that his own student might kill him disgusted him severely, directly betraying the Rule of the Two Sith philosophy.

    I don't think he seriously thought about "possessing" Anakin in the PT, and certainly not the mauled cyborg that was Vader. Luke? Possibly. Turn the young Jedi into a bitter Sith Lord, teach him everything, and then possess his body as the new Emperor, circa 10 years after ROTJ? But his plans were ruined, he was thrown down that shaft and his only choice left was pulling the strings from Exegol, his work from Episodes I-VI ruined and forced to start almost from scratch. All that he had left was the "unnatural Sith techniques" at Exegol, and the huge task of organizing the FO and building the Sith Fleet. When he discovered the potential and inner darkness of Ben Solo, it's no wonder he risked being discovered (using Snoke as a front), because the boy had too much potential and was a perfect candidate for possession. His secret granddaughter being out there somewhere as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Knowledge may matter less than strength of ego. With Sidious being the most egotistical Sith of all time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  7. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    That's the other plausible interpretation. I think early on in this process this was very likely. But with each generation that passes, the master, as the gestalt of every Sith before becomes greater and stronger, and it becomes an ever more difficult task for the apprentice to win that contest. I think by the time we get to Palpatine we are dealing with something more demon than mortal. Everything that Palpatine once was is in there, that kid from Naboo with the big horrific dreams of conquest, but it's a drop in a very large bucket. How much influence that drop has is up for interpretation, but it seems to me that this demon definitely expects to be in the driver's seat after Rey performs the ritual.

    I'd think that that secrecy would be absolutely essential. If you are counting on possessing your apprentice, someone who is by definition smart, powerful, resourceful, and extremely treacherous, then you need to make absolutely sure they have no idea this is coming. Who would you trust this key piece of information with? Because I'm thinking absolutely nobody. You'd need to maintain the illusion that the apprentice prevailed, in order to sucker the next apprentice.

    Part of this is that I've long had trouble with the idea that a Sith Lord would do anything for the good of their order, rather than the good of themselves. "I might be supplanted by someone stronger, and this is fine, for the good of the Sith!" Even this sort of selflessness seems anti-thematic to me, and I'm more and more convinced it's a lie. The dark side is greed, and Sith Lords look out for number one. The apprentice serves the master to learn the master's secrets and one day achieve dominance, and the master takes on an apprentice to have the most capable possible accomplice and to be able to one day cheat death. It's a dysfunctional relationship based entirely on self-interest. Selflessness is for suckers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  8. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    I think this is a brilliant revelation that canonizes and shines a new light on the end of the old Darth Bane novel trilogy. It also means that the power growth of the Sith is not linear, its exponential. Previously, I thought the growth was linear, because the apprentice needed to be powerful and/or clever enough to take down their immediate predecessor. Now, it appears that the apprentice must be powerful and/or clever enough to take down the cumulative power and knowledge all the Dark Lords who came before.

    Rey (or Luke, some decades past) striking Sidious down in anger is a win-win scenario. The Sith inhabit a body with a high midi count, ergo vast Force potential. If the new mind is powerful enough to dominate the spirits of past Sith Lords, the Sith win. If not, the Sith inhabit a powerful and younger body. The Sith win.

    This also sheds new light on RotJ, specifically why Sheev cackled maniacally when Vader blocked Luke’s strike. In his mind, it meant-

    1. Vader has sussed out this particular secret of the Sith. Well done, my apprentice!
    2. He wants this power for himself. Well done, my apprentice!
    3. If Vader defeats lightside Luke, the last threat to the Sith is gone, there are no Jedi to train Leia, Vader has finally extinguished the last vestiges of Anakin Skywalker, and is now the apprentice I was meant to have.
    4. If Vader defeats darkside Luke, the last threat to the Sith is gone, there are no Jedi to train Leia, Vader has finally extinguished the last vestiges of Anakin Skywalker, and is now the apprentice I was meant to have.
    5. If darkside Luke defeats Vader, there are no Jedi to train Leia, and I have the apprentice I was meant to have, with backups in the form of Leia and my son.
    6. If lightside Luke defeats Vader, he has rid me of a worthless apprentice, and I then kill Luke. The last threat to the Sith is gone, there are no Jedi to train Leia, and I will train either Leia or my son.
     
  9. rocknroll41

    rocknroll41 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 28, 2013
    My headcanon theory is that it was just Palpatine who figured out the possession trick, and he sensed Anakin was out there pre-TPM and targeted him due to his immense strength in the force (so maybe force abilities are somewhat partially connected to the body and genetics, not just the mind of the individual), and that the stuff he told him later on in the Vader comic about “making him” was just a lie to further manipulate him into being his pet.

    When Anakin eventually turned evil, Palpatine ordered him to help “clean up” by wiping out the younglings, the separatists, etc, with the intention of then taking over his body shortly after. The problem, however, was that he didn’t get a chance to before Anakin was burnt to a crisp and placed in the suit, thus rendering a takeover of his body as pretty much pointless (the one wrinkle here is that Palpatine was smiling when suited Vader screamed “no,” but I guess that had more to do with him taking pleasure in Vader’s pain over the loss of Padme).

    Fast forward to Luke in OT, and Palpatine saw a new worthy body takeover candidate in him (but we all know how that went).

    Fast forward again to the time between the OT and the ST, and Palpatine saw yet another worthy body takeover candidate, in Ben Solo. I’m sure that around the same time he also sensed the immense power in Rey, the daughter of his runaway son, but probably felt much more “attracted” to the Skywalker genetics, so he treated Kylo as his target, and saw Rey instead as a potential threat that needed to be nipped in the bud.

    Fast forward just one more time to TRoS, and Palpatine finally has Kylo right in front of him, but is aware of the massive force-bond Kylo shares with his granddaughter Rey, who also happens to be the last Jedi at this point (he most likely knew of their strong bond but didn’t specifically know they were a dyad yet). My guess is that the force-bond wouldn’t work anymore once Palpatine takes over Kylo’s body, and Palpatine himself is well aware of this, so he wants Kylo to use the force-bond to lure Rey out and kill her, thus tying up that loose end, before taking over Kylo’s body. Problem here tho is that Leia got in the way, and redeemed Kylo through the Han vision (“the princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plans”), so his new plan now was to fall back to his own granddaughter by waiting for her to come to him, knowing the Resistance would follow her, and then use the Sith Fleet’s strongarm on her Resistance friends to force her to kill him in anger, so that he could take over her body instead (but once again, we all know how that went).

    In the mist of all this, I guess he saw all of his other players throughout the years like Maul, Dooku, etc as nothing more than just pawns in his game to help him eventually get into a healthy Skywalker body.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    Mostly Handless and Iron_lord like this.
  10. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    The apprentice still has to be smart, powerful, resourceful, and treacherous enough to defeat the master (and all masters who came before), or there is no gain. Likewise, the master still has to stay smarter, more powerful, more resourceful, and more treacherous than the apprentice, or there is no gain.
     
  11. Daxon101

    Daxon101 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 7, 2016
    The possession angle is just messy. its just easier to assume the whole snoke thing is something he worked out after ROTJ.

    its worth remembering that Sidious has done some crazy force magic stuff. but none of it has been some sort of routine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  12. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Dooku? Yes. Maul? No.

     
  13. rocknroll41

    rocknroll41 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 28, 2013
    Oh wow. Never knew he said that. Thanks for the info!
     
  14. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    That would seem to be what the film is going for, although I'm not convinced that Abrams or Terrio had the specifics set in stone. It could just be a lot of mumbo jumbo they came up with to sound cool and vaguely reference PT/OT material. The Visual Dictionary further complicates things by implying the Rule of Two and the concept of the "Dyad" are somehow related:

    [​IMG]

    Maybe Palpatine actually "lost" some of the power of the previous Sith Lords by having children, and Rey has some of that essence within her, which is why he wants to kill/possess her? And maybe Ben/Kylo has some of that essence as well, because Palpatine used it to create Anakin and that was passed down from Leia to him? Maybe that is the relation between the Rule of Two and the Dyad?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
    rocknroll41 and G-FETT like this.
  15. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    I agree. There's never been any indication that this was how the Rule of Two worked until now.
     
    Mr. Forest, Count Yubnub and Erkan12 like this.
  16. jpb19

    jpb19 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2019
    I think the dark side is Satan in the Star Wars universe. The Sith are followers of Satan. Cheating death could have been introduced to Palpatine's master by Satan aka the dark side. Palpatine saying he is all Sith makes him Satan personified.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Or as Legends Palpatine put it:


    I've played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough! Now you will experience my full potency... I live as energy... I am the Dark Side!
     
  18. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I interpreted it as the Sith are essentially parasites leaving on in their apprentices bodies because they're terrified of death. To them even this pathetic existence is preferable to no existence at all. Palpatine is the dominant spirit but he has all the knowledge and power of the previous generations. This gives new reason for why Yoda realized fighting him was useless and the Jedi had to find another way. Palpatine truly is the most powerful being in the universe and you're not just going to beat him in a lightsaber duel. Anakin beats him by destroying him not out of hatred or anger but out of love for his son thus denying Palpatine and the Sith a body to transfer into. Unfortunately Palpatine had one final trick up his sleeve to try and negate the balance Anakin achieved.
     
  19. jpb19

    jpb19 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2019
    Palpatine could have transformed into a demon so to speak over the years just as Anakin transformed into a machine. Palpatine's human self died in episode 6, but his Satanic spirit lived on which would explain why he can suck the life out of force users. Palpatine originally was not the dark side and all Sith personified originally. In episode 3, I guess he achieved that role with the exception of him saying to Yoda Vader would be powerful than they.
     
    Mostly Handless and Iron_lord like this.
  20. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    The one thing I like is that it shows the Sith do get more powerful the longer down the line they are in the Rule of Two
     
  21. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    TITLE UPDATE.
     
  22. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    That’s fine and all... but then you have to come to the conclusion that a millennia of the most powerful, and most smart Sith Lords were defeated by Rey deflecting Palpatine’s lightning back at him. It makes them several shades of dumb.
     
  23. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    When I first heard about this, the first thing I thought was "Chris Terrio has been reading the Darth Bane Trilogy and Dark Empire". TROS Palpatine is a clear amalgamation of those ideas.

    While I like the canonization of "Essence Transfer" from the Darth Bane Trilogy, I don't like the idea of Palpatine being "All Sith". My reasons are as follows...

    1. It's not what George intended, and is overwriting his lore for the Rule Of Two
    2. It makes the Sith too exponentially powerful, and Rey's defeat of him seem a bit ridiculous
    3. It lessens the coolness of individual Sith characters if all the masters are essentially the same being
    4. It makes the idea of Sith Holocrons obsolete, because why would they need them if every Sith Lord has all the knowledge of all the others

    Personally, I prefer the idea that Palpatine rediscovered the power, and was planning to use it on whoever finally "killed" him. It still doesn't explain why he couldn't use it on Rey when she does kill him, but that is another issue.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I figure it's because Rey isn't exactly "striking him down" - she's pushing back his own lightning, rather than slashing at him with her weapons.
     
  25. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    See, to me, that is too much splitting hairs. A power that allows you to transfer your spirit into someone else at the moment of death makes sense. That power being very specifically limited to only people who are "striking you down" seems a bit of a silly contrivance.