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ST How TROS Recontextualizes The Sith

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by EntechednReformatted, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Love this thread idea and many of the ideas. The expansion of Sith lore was one of the highlights of TROS and it adds a lot of intrigue into the entire saga and history of the Sith.

    The dark side and light side divide has always been something that fans disagree on. Was Luke truly at risk of succumbing to the dark side in ROTJ? Many fans don’t think so but the film itself seems to want us to believe he was. Like it or not the saga does imply that once you start down the dark path a lot of things change and so with that in mind I think that a line has to exist that moves an individual from using the dark side and not. And between self-defence redirected back at an enemy and seeking to murder an enemy with anger in the heart. TROS showed that difference for me with Rey at the end.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    He does emphasise that he wants Rey's hatred, when it comes to striking him down. That may matter as well.

    I think the idea is that the target's state of mind during the strike, opens them to possession.

    By acting defensively rather than aggressively - "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack" - this path to possession is blocked.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  3. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Quoted for truth...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2020
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  4. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Right, and as I recall, something like that does happen to Bane when he first tries it. I haven't read those books in awhile. It just seems like a bit of a convenient limitation, in this instance, but I agree it works thematically with the Jedi philosophy.
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Bane possessed Zannah - then immediately afterward, her ego crushed his out of existence, leaving at most a tiny fragment behind.
     
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  6. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I remember that part, but doesn't he try to possess someone else first, and fails?
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Not that I recall - I reread the trilogy last week.

    The ritual automatically destroys the caster's own body - which wouldn't fit with an unsuccessful attempt at it.

    You may be thinking of his unsuccessful attempts at the Holocron-Creating ritual.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  8. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Man, I just realized I was thinking of Harry Potter, when Voldemort tries to possess Harry, and Harry's love for his friends causes Voldemort pain. I got my franchises crossed. I am too much nerd. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Given that "going over to the Dark Side" is used a lot early on, and Harry says "I'm never going over to the Dark Side" in book 1, I think Rowling intended there to be some similarities in the franchises. :D
     
  10. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2019
    I just think it was a lazy plot device to give narrative weight to Rey possibly killing Palpatine, I honestly don't think any more effort went into it than that.

    I don't like how it needlessly complicates a dynamic of master and apprentice, and death in the Star Wars universe. The Sith dynamic was fine with apprentices growing and learning until they outwit the master and kill them. The whole point is that the master doesn't want that, and will stave off death for as long as possible while using their apprentice for their own worldly advancement.

    If it's something that Sidious alone figured out, then fine. He's the ultimate Sith, I can bite that bullet, it just sucks that out-of-universe, it came from such a terrible place and for such a terrible reason. But I'd definitely rather not recontextualize the whole Sith culture into literal soul/knowledge absorption.

    It cheapens the idea of having to learn and train, something this trilogy has already made enough of a mockery.
     
  11. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 2, 2006
    I prefer to interpret Palpatines line as metaphorical. The lineage of the Sith live through whoever is the reigning Sith of the time. It’s like saying all the kings live in the heir of a royal bloodline.
     
  12. The Chalk Jedi

    The Chalk Jedi Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Have we heard from Terrio yet whether "all the Sith" is literal, metaphorical, or simply about passed on knowledge?

    Palpatine's essence transfer may be different from all the Sith passing their spirits from one Sith to the next. He may be the only one who can do it.

    Is it stupid that Palpatine didn't stop using his lightning attack when Rey turned it back on him? It depends. When Rey says she's "all the Jedi," she really does seem to mean that the Jedi are aiding her fight, and this means two things: 1) they are providing her the knowledge to defeat Palpatine, and this could very well mean 2) that the redirected lightning attack makes it impossible for Palpatine to stop releasing it -- like the Jedi are pulling it from him and he can't stop. This is similar to what Mace did to Palpatine, and he may be the one who helps Rey do it.

    I believe Terrio says all the Sith in the colloquium are not spirits, but cultists, and the people flying the destroyers are the children of the cultists. So I'm not sure the movie ever shows us Sith spirits. It does let us hear Jedi spirits though.
     
  13. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    No those people are part of Sidious’s Sith eternal cult
     
  14. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    It felt really lazy to me. Just a plot device to try and justify Ret getting to kill Sheev herself.
     
  15. vong333

    vong333 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2003
    It’s funny in one of the YouTube videos I saw that discussed cut content from TROS, one concept reported to be cut was Rey with god like powers. Funny thing is that what has been released in the movie shows Rey doing some super stuff. There going to have to come up with books and comics book to better explain all this new way of looking at the Jedi, Sith, and the force in general.
     
  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I for one am pretty excited for it
     
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  17. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    If we look to the aftermath of the battle between Obi Wan and Anakin / Vader in ROTS, we clearly see Palpatine use Force Healing on Anakin. His hand on Anakins head is very much the same as Ben's hand on Luke during ANH.

    Force healing has been widely thought of a light side technique as opposed to Force Drain which is more in line with the Sith. So it seems that Palp was a Mace Windu in reverse. As Mace was able to use elements of the Dark as he fought, Palp was willing to engage in Light side techniques in order to to further his own plans. This also connects with Yoda's insight during his battle with Palpatine that the Sith had been willing to change over the years to help move the 1000 plan along whilke the Jedi chose to remain static.

    In my head cannon - Plaugus was able to use both light and dark to learn to alter the MCs to prevent death and to learn how to preform essence transfer. He then passed this knowledge on to Palpatine, whom as we all know , promptly killed Plaugus in his sleep knowing that his Master would be with him in a way that had never been done before. Being able to tap into the Force as no other Sith before him , Palpatine was able to unleash Force based power beyond any level of those who had come before him by direct interaction with the MCs

    I also wonder if Palpatine would be able to "make the MCs Bleed " as the Sith did with the Kyber crystals in their lightsabers. Again, the ability to influence the Force at such a deep level would give Palp the power of all the Sith without the need for Force Ghosts as the Jedi were able to transcend into.
     
  18. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2019
    I always saw the "hand on forehead" thing as checking vitals through the Force, like checking for a pulse.
     
  19. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I don’t think darksiders can use force healing
     
  20. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I don't like Force healing and I am all the Jedi/Sith thing. It does not hold up to scrutiny and only works if you don't think about it too much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  21. wasoha

    wasoha Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Mar 24, 2015
    I imagine this Sith possession idea functioning more like the Matrix of Leadership in the Transformers. It fills the new master with the essences of the old, but the new master is not literally overwritten. The Sith live with them, permanently augmenting them.

    It doesn't overwrite the entire personality of the new master, but it does augment it. Like an upgrade that merges them into one. She would become a new unique individual, not only Sidious but definitely more than Rey. An evil ascension into a new augmented person that is both.
    Like how Optimus Prime did not literally become Sentinel Prime by inheriting the matrix from him, but he did become much more than Orion Pax (who he was before becoming Optimus). Sentinel and the previous Primes were within him, becoming part of him, but didn't erase him.

    It's a bit of a nebulous idea but there is a sort of scifi logic to it.
    While Jedi can retain their essence after merging with the force, the best a sith can muster is to clown car into the next sith master in the physical world.

    It allows Sidious to still be Palpatine himself while also being "all the Sith."
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  22. Elle-Wan

    Elle-Wan Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2004
    It stings if he stops.
     
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  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I like the force-healing.
    Makes sense that Palpatine drains life energy where Rey and Ben are shown to share it. Fits in with the "Sith as a cancer" lore, relative to Jedi symbiosis with the force and other living beings. The "dyad" as others have pointed out could also relate to Lucas's symbiotic relationships.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  24. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    May 18, 2017
    I hear you but ROTS hinged on the fact that Vader couldn't do it. They're just superpowering everything like Avengers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  25. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Yeah I suppose. I guess I can just accept it because finales usually tend to go bigger with stuff like this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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