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ST How TROS Recontextualizes The Sith

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by EntechednReformatted, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    @christophero30

    To add to the last post...

    Plus Vader went about it all wrong. The light side can sustain life. The irony in Qui-Gon and Yoda's conversation in the ROTS novel/script. That they achieved it without actively seeking it, whereas Vader just lost everything.
    Palpatine using Ben and Rey's life force parasitically could be somewhat what he was referencing with unnatural death cheating in ROTS. Of course.
     
  2. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    I'm thinking this might be an appropriate place to quote myself, from another thread.

    The parallel between the ends of ROTS and TROS is clear as day to me, and frankly we desperately need to let that silly "Padme gave birth then decided not to go on living" interpretation die an overdue death. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

    The med droids didn't know what they were talking about, and that's what they admitted. "For reasons we can't explain, we're losing her." Saying someone lost the will to live is something you say when you just don't have a clue. In this case, Palpatine spoke the truth. It seems, in Anakin's anger, he killed her. He unknowingly drew out her life force to sustain himself. It's basically the same thing the Emperor was able to do, even more successfully, to rejuvenate himself by leeching off the dyad.

    You want tragic irony? "Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that." But the dark side can only ever take. Compassion, as always, is the ticket.

    "
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  3. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I don’t have an issue with the force being used as a healing band aid. Being able to use the force to bring people back from the dead is a whole other can of worms and, IMO, is a bit of a cheap gimmick. I always liked the notion that Jedi could retain their identity in the ‘afterlife’ through love and acts of selflessness... and this was something the Sith could never achieve... apart from being able to artificially sustain life through the darkside. From a writing point of view, once you give Sith that power, it kind of diminishes the narrative/thematic context of what can be achieved by the light versus what can be achieved by the dark. It was a mistake (IMO) for TROS to go there, both in terms of the philosophical nature of life and death (which the PT/OT explores), but also (obviously) that it completely destroys the drama of Anakin’s sacrifice in ROTJ.
     
  4. Luke'sSeveredHand

    Luke'sSeveredHand Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2014

    My opinion (and that's all it is until we're given anything more concrete) is that the "essence transfer" is not so literal as is being discussed, and is more of a "quickening" from the Highlander type of deal, i.e., receiving all power and knowledge obtained by that Sith lord and is more symbiotic than parasitic if you get my meaning.

    As for how he didn't use it on Rey, she technically (pushes up glasses) didn't strike him down. She reflected the power of his anger and hatred back at him with the lightsabers, and he ultimately destroyed himself.

    I believe the explanation for Sideous/Palpatine being able to leach the life out of Ben and Rey was due only to them being a force dyad, or at least that's my understanding. I believe that ability was intended to be extremely rare.

    As for Ben's reviving Rey, he gave her his entire force energy, and sacrificed himself so that she could live, which is about as "Jedi" as it gets.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  5. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    It also comes put of nowhere. It wasn't established at all in the previous films. And it opens up another can of worms continuity wise that just, didn't need to be opened.
     
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  6. Luke'sSeveredHand

    Luke'sSeveredHand Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2014
    So did force skype. So did force ghosts. so did force lightning. There are a lot of legitimate critiques, but IMO this is not one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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  7. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Until the novel elaborates, or not , I don't see this Highlander scenerio. In fact there was no Sith spirits in the movie. Palpatine saying he was all the Sith could have been a wild boast, one of his many, or possibly just in the sense he was the lineal Sith Lord from Darth Bane onwards and probably amassed a large knowledge of the Ancient Sith before Bane. It does not necessarily mean al the Sith are in him,lol. Or could mean maybe he gene spliced his DNA with the DNA of past Sith Lords but I think such a mix would be unstable . Regardless even in the EU normally Dark Side clones were unstable on various levels.

    But whatever what was going on with the phantom Emperor in the movie it was mainly on the machine and genetic level and some on the occult level. I don't think this Palpatine was able to cheat death, since he clearly stated he died and even admitted it twice in the movie. He was however somehow brought back through science and the occult of the Sith Eternal. Also this method is not the same as Talzin and the Nightsisters or even the ancient Sith, who are able to Force drain Jedi, Sith or other Force users. This Palpatine only drained them after he inadvertently took their lifeforce into him & realized they were a Dyad. It was not something he knew or was aware of beforehand. His initial plan was was transfer his soul into his granddaughter cause she was compatible for the ritual and there had to be certain means of execution. With Rey, he needed someone of his bloodline that had his power, which means the midiclorian count to be Force sensitive, something the father did not possess but his daughter did.

    The Sith Eternal are more important than merely Palpatine himself in the movie and its very important not to ignore them. They are largely responsible for Palpatine's return and the continued the Sith presence past ROTJ and built up a Empire sized fighting force in secret.

    We know both in the movie and the Visual Dictionary that the Sith Eternal are involved with genetic science as well as alchemy. They are also very privy to many of the Dark Side beliefs, traditions and secrets going back generations all the way back to the Ancient Sith who always had a thing for prolonging their lives which included pillaging worlds with any reputation in genetic sciences. These Sith Eternal cultists have coupled technology with the occult and brought forth unnatural embodiment's of the Dark Side. Palpatine said he died before, which means he died on the DS II . Its either he was cloned by the Sith Eternal like the Snoke clones, which are already aged and deformed, or somehow they retrieved his original body and plugged into the machine apparatus (or the clone needed the machine to stay alive but the body was decaying) and his consciousness lived on in a living dead-like body.

    The Sith Troopers are supposed to be better trained and more loyal than the Clone Troopers, largely due to their flash-imprinting. Flash-imprinting could've also been theoretically also used on the training of Snoke or even a Palpatine clone. If this movie did one thing, it opened the door on Dark Sider clones for neo-canon.
     
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  8. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I would guess the Jedi Order would have been against Force resurrection. Doesn't mean Yoda or Mace or any of them couldn't do it. Just that their philosophy taught them to let go of those they cared about if that was the Force's will. Ben isn't a Jedi and doesn't follow that philosophy.
     
  9. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Casualty / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    That is exactly how I perceive it. Take all of that in light of Yoda's other shared philosophies and it becomes far less some sort of cold, detached thing and more a desire to not hinder people who are dying "in the body" to reach the vastly superior realm of "one with the Force" and that is probably the heart of the Order's intended view on it. But, as with all stuffy institutions, the core value of a rule gets forgotten over eons of simply following a rule for the rule's sake.
     
  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I think Terrio mentioned in an interview the force users in this last film were more grey.

    Makes sense applied to Ben's last scene obviously.

    I'm really curious if we will find out more in future material directly linked to Ep9... I was still finding out things about the original six until quite recently afterall.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  11. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    But it’s possible it was just forgotten also Anakin wanted to stay with Padme. If Padme died and he healed her he would have died. He was selfish
     
  12. ThisIsTheWay

    ThisIsTheWay Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2019
    Has that always been the case or is that a recent change? Because I was always under the impression that his goal at the time was to simply ensure Padmé (and their kid) survived. If given the chance to learn a technique that would save her life at the expense of his, I don’t see any reason why he wouldn’t go for it.

    The only reason he saved Palpatine was because he was the only option he had. If given an alternative choice I don’t think he’d have any reason to save him or bend the knee.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
  13. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Palpatine is all of the Sith
    Palpatine is the Senate.
    Palpatine is very metaphorical
     
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  14. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    He will be back.
     
  15. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    I got shades of this also.
     
  16. AEHoward33

    AEHoward33 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2019
    Why in the hell did Abrams and Lucasfilm bring Palpatine back? I'm really getting tired of dead Star Wars villains being resurrected. First Maul for "The Clone Wars" and now Palpatine for this movie. And the latter's return wasn't even set up properly.
     
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  17. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere, but if the Sith are being rebranded as “the apprentice kills the master and gains their knowledge and power etc” ala Highlander...

    How does that work if they’re killed in battle by a Jedi? There’s no way for the Sith to know that the master will always fall to his apprentice, rather than a Jedi. Yoda could have defeated Palpatine, for example. Even if Palpatine’s prescience was so good as to know he would win that particular battle, that is a big assumption going over generation after generation of Sith going back millennia.
     
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  18. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Seeing as George’s intent was for Padme to die of a broken heart even if it doesn’t make sense I would rather have his intent be canon and not some retcon.
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That's why, until the PT, the Sith are hiding from the Jedi - hence Ki-Adi's belief that the Sith have been extinct for 1000 years.
     
  20. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Yet they’re familiar enough to know about the Rule of Two. Meaning they have had encounters with the Banite Sith. Meaning that the Sith have risked some level of confrontation with the Jedi and the master being killed by a Jedi. Again: if Yoda kills Palpatine, then it messes up Palp’s plans in this new version of the Sith. Palp doesn’t seem to think so: he specifically says that if Yoda kills him, Vader will become more powerful than either of them. Sure, he lies and twists the truth, but is that just supposed to be some empty threat? Against Yoda? Nah.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    They could have just visited Korriban and conversed with Bane's specter. Maybe Yoda wasn't the first to go there.
     
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  22. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    That wasn’t Bane’s spirit that was just a vision yoda had. My guess is that Bane in the new canon was killed by the Jedi and that’s how they learned of the rule of two.
     
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  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Hangman Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I thought it was more of a programmed hologram - maybe some kind of Sith spell?
     
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  24. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Maybe. Although why make that? Did they never expect the Jedi to go to Morriban ever?
     
  25. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Correct, it is not Bane. In fact, Lucas himself was the one who vetoed any true Sith ghosts.

    The issue with Bane being killed by the Jedi is that it starts the entire new system off contrary to this new highlander-sith system. If Bane is the one who figures out how to do it, and he is killed by the Jedi, then bam, that knowledge dies there. And there’s no reason to teach it to his apprentice, since she’ll learn it upon killing him (which also means that there’s no reason to teach her anything...).
     
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