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ST How TROS Recontextualizes The Sith

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by EntechednReformatted, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    That is something I find interesting. What is the point of teaching a Sith apprentice anything if they can just kill you and learn everything
     
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  2. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    The time spent exploring the ways of the Sith in this film was the thing I enjoyed most about TROS. It really revealed a lot about them that wasn't known before-at least not outside of comics. We got this kind of in-depth exploration with the Jedi in AOTC, and now with the Sith in TROS. To me, the scenes with Palpatine stand as some of the most memorable moments in the entire saga!
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  3. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Just gotta make sure they’re mad at you. Palp could’ve just made ‘your mom’ jokes to Anakin in Ep3 and wham bam, he’s all set.
     
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  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    But if they kill the master they don't just get all the knowledge; they become the Sith master - they are taken over by him/her. Only the master wins.
     
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  5. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/All-Around Good Guy star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    So then is every Sith in the rule of two just Darth Bane under a different name?
     
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  6. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I'm not 100% sure about this. It may be that the master's ego does not crush the apprentice's ego out of existence, the way Bane was trying to do in Legends.

    Instead it may be that the apprentice's ego is expected to be dominant - but that the apprentice now has all the Master's memories as well as their own.

    Kinda like "Sharing" in the later Dune books.
     
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  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    It depends on if this was going on the whole time there was a rule of two.
    It could have been a recent discovery by the Sith. I'm really just guessing here, perhaps it does go back to Bane.

    Hmm, that sounds plausible.

    It sounded like Rey wouldn't have much free will once Palpatine took her over, but I am assuming that.
    The nature of Palpatine's return leaves it open, because we don't know if he was the first "all Sith" vessel. Or whether it was his original body. If he killed his master (presumably Plagueis) and partly became him, he seems to have retained full control in his own identity.
     
  8. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Exactly. That is one of the issues I have with this retcon to the lore. It's much less interesting to me if each Sith Master is just the same guy over and over again.
     
  9. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    I didn't interpret it to be the same guy over and over, but rather just that the current master has the accumulated knowledge from the past Siths.
     
  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I'm in two minds about that.
    For Sith history, yeah maybe it is a little simplistic.

    But it would make Palpatine's return in the ST more fitting. His cheating death or being brought back feels way more organic if there was more to Palpatine (demonically?) than his just being a politician who was trained in the dark from an early age. He is already symbolically the embodiment of the devil, so his inhuman presence in TROS matches someone who has literally lived more than once (or more than twice).

    It just makes the villain of the finale seem scarier and more imposing. Maybe I'm stating the obvious.
     
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  11. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Because the Sith philosophy is essentially survival of the strongest. If the apprentice is strong enough to kill their Master then they're worthy of becoming the Master. If they can't then they weren't worthy to begin with and the Master needs to find another apprentice.

    This. Palpatine is Palpatine. He isn't Darth Bane in a different body. The Sith spirits are simply living on in the host body like parasites because they're terrified of death but Palpatine is the dominant personality.
     
  12. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Also, in the meantime, at least the master can use the apprentice to run errands and such. Kill that guy. Terrorize these people. Pick up dry cleaning. Get Starbucks.
     
  13. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Exactly. And for the apprentice why would they stick with the Master if the Master wasn't teaching them anything.

    "Hi Master, are we training today?"

    "No, we'll train next week. I need you to go fetch Galactic Weekly for me now though."

    "You said that last week and the week before. In fact, you've said that every week since we met. Do you even have anything to teach me or did you just need someone to run your errands?"

    "Of course I have stuff to teach you. I have a lot of stuff to teach you."

    "..."

    "Galactic Weekly isn't going to fetch itself."

    :p
     
  14. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Screaming Service / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Qui Gon explicitly teaches Anakin that the philosophy of the Living Force hinges upon all things being symbiotic.

    The Dark Side... always corrupting the alternatively positive approach to the Force... is dependent upon being parasitic rather than in harmonic connection.

    They forego community for a host.

    I give JJ absolutely no credit for putting nearly this deep a thought into it all but this is accidentally foreshadowed all the way back when Sidious was first a "Phantom" menace. Obi Wan practically breaks the fourth wall to preach about how the Naboo and Gungans form a symbiotic circle (You must understand this!) as almost a microcosm of the larger threat of a parasite looking to cause enough division to attach itself to a host. That being the Republic, itself.

    TL;DR:
    Light Side: Symbiotic/Communal
    Dark Side: Parasitic/Capatilistic
     
  15. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Socially And Emotionally Distant Mod Of New Films star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Yes, that's possible, but that comes with it's own issues. Here are my general thoughts.
     
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  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I don't think it's essence transfer in the traditional EU form. Like I said I didn't interpret as Palpatine literally was Darth Bane in a different body. I think it's more like Harry Potter. Harry has a piece of Voldemort's soul that latched onto him when Voldemort was killed. It's why he has some of Voldemort's power. He can speak Parseltongue. But Harry isn't Voldemort. Harry is still Harry and I think Palpatine is still Palpatine.

    As for Holocrons, maybe that's why they stopped making them. I don't think Palpatine had a Holocron, did he? I could be wrong but maybe that was an ancient Sith tradition that the Banite Sith did away with because they didn't need it anymore.
     
  17. Noen

    Noen Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Bit of a twist. on your argument :
    Recall what Mephistopheles says in Faust, and often found in many folklore accounts, regarding a deal with the devil: The person must offer (voluntarily) something in exchange for evil's favor.

    - Kylo had to kill his dad.
    - Vader had to kill, the closest thing he had to a father, Obi-Wan.
    - Palpatine in the novel, killed his family if I recall correctly.
    - Rey must offer her individuality, the light within her, and typically kill her grandfather, for becoming an all powerful Sith and Empress.

    It seals the deal.
     
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  18. Noen

    Noen Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Sorry for derailing, but the Dune books ignited this :cool:.

    Think of the similarities, between Alia Atreides and her possession from Baron Harkonnen, to Rey and Palpatine:
    1. Grandfather - granddaughter relationship
    2. Granddaughter kills grandfather
    3. Power (Character) passed down through bloodline

    In this sense, killing Palpatine could lead to inevitably grandpa possessing granddaughter, in the long run.
     
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  19. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 13, 2014
    I thought the Sith Rule of Two started before the Sith went underground. Basically when there were more than two Sith they'd always end up wrecking their own plans with in fighting. After one such defeat Darth Bane eliminates the other surviving Sith Lords and starts the Rule of Two. This helps further the Sith's plans greatly but is still not enough to rule the galaxy with the Jedi there to defend it. Facing defeat 1,000 years before The Phantom Menace the Sith fake their destruction. They give up on openly conquering the galaxy and instead bide their time to take over from within.

    Given the state of the galaxy in the sequel trilogy with a strong Republic and Jedi Order removed, Palpatine feels there is not in place to stop full on Sith invasion of the galaxy. So in the Rise of Skywalker he goes all old school.
     
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  20. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    This script was, supposedly, the 2nd draft of VII. Feb/Mar 2013. This is Cosinga Palpatine talking to our Palpatine, his 17 yo son, in the 'Plagueis' novel (2012). Palpatine is about to kill him:
    Also. The Plagueis novel has, maybe, another hints:
    Almost as the echo of some ancient GoT-like Palpatine saga.

    Who knows. In any case, 'Plagueis' was published in 2012, and apparently the 'heartless woman' backstory idea (https://bgr.com/2016/06/22/star-wars-underworld-emperor-origin/) was abandoned at some point after 2009, the year Cory Barlog worked at LucasArts. In 'Plagueis', we have the teenager version of Palpatine, and he's not even a sith (that is Sidious) when he kills his father.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  21. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2004
    I think this is what Plagueus discovered. A way to grow stronger via possession and, therefore, eternal life while still holding to the Rule of Two. Sidious no doubt then exploited this by killing his master and then making sure his apprentices either got "Dark Side" enough to kill him ("kill") or be killed by a stronger opponent that Sidious could then groom as his. Sidious willingly "absorbed" all the prior Sith and used it for his own gain.

    Like someone said earlier, this may not be a skill actually taught, but only known to Plagueues and Sidious.
     
  22. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    I don’t know. Vader loves ‘yo mama’ jokes and his son kicked Palpatine’s derrière in a ‘yo mama’ jokes competition, Vader then killing his Master for losing. It was the Killing Joke.




    Darth Ruin was originally the esteemed Jedi Master Phaniusa, a Lost Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  23. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    In a way, that kind of system seems rather dangerous. With just two Sith around, there is a real chance of both dying when the apprentice tries to overthrow his master, or the survivour being left maimed in such a way that he is just a shadow of his former self. Suddenly the Sith didn't get stronger, they might even have wiped out themselves instead.

    A similar thing applies when a master who gets up there in age defeats his apprentice, but doesn't have enough time to find or properly train a new one. Either the Sith would be gone with the death of the master, or you would have a weak apprentice who isn't ready to take over yet.

    In the whole scenario, you might end up needing a Sith who acts in a very un-Sith-like manner, by sacrificing himself for the greater good of the Sith.
     
  24. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Pretty much all that covered in the Bane novels. It's why Bane decides to hunt down the secret of 'extended life', because he doubts Zannah's ability to succeed him.
     
  25. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2004
    And that, I postulate, is exactly why Plagueus discovered this way of beating things by the whole "Sith possession" thing. An apprentice killing his/her master just "absorbs" all the Sith before. Instant Level-Up.
     
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