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ST How TROS Recontextualizes The Sith

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by EntechednReformatted, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    So apparently Big Daddy Sheev can just, grow an uber-powerful Force User, stronger than Vader, Dooku, Kylo, etc, in a tank somehow, AND make more than one? Wow, way to cheapen The Force and what it stands for there JJ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  2. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    [​IMG]

    I really like how the saga itself has increased symmetry between the opposing cultures of the Jedi and Sith. Prior to TROS and after the prequels enhanced Jedi Lore so much and Sith lore slightly I wanted more Sith lore and ROTJ just doesn’t have it because all of this was added more later. I really like seeing Exegol in the saga and the scale of it all.
     
  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Interesting that the Exegol "building" is the shape of the Jedi Temple upside down.
    I wonder if it was intentional.

    Also I believe the Jedi Temple had a Sith shrine underneath?
     
  4. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    There’s not supposed to be symmetry.
     
  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    While I'm at it some comparisons between each order...




    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]





    Hard to show with a screencap but Maul and Luke turn in a 100% identical arc:
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I know I know, Palpatine was faking.







    End of the Jedi (or is it?)
    [​IMG]
    End of the Sith (or is it?)
    [​IMG]
     
  6. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Some others:


    Enter the Jedi
    [​IMG]
    Enter the Sith
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    Reaching out towards "lost master" Obi-Wan - (x2)
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    [​IMG]
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    Discussing whether Obi-Wan can help them (contrasting reactions between Anakin and Vader)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]












    - Anakin joins a Sith Master (Sidious) / Luke joins a Jedi Master (Obi-Wan).
    eg, Palpatine: "You're fulfilling your destiny Anakin." / Obi-Wan: "Your destiny lies along a different path from mine."
    (Vader is bound to Sidious... Luke is set free by Obi-Wan)

    eg, Palpatine: "Of course you should, but you're not entirely sure of their intentions." / Obi-Wan: "You must do what you think is right, of course."

    eg, Palpatine: "Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the force." / Obi-Wan: "Learn about the force, Luke!"

    eg, Also, Sidious puts a healing hand on Vader after Obi-Wan dismembers Vader and abandons him / Obi-Wan puts a healing hand on Luke when the tuskens knock him out, the beginning of a second chance at training a Skywalker prodigy.







    TPM
    Ki-Adi Mundi: "The Sith have been extinct for a millennia!"
    Mace: "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing."
    Yoda: "Ah, hard to see the darkside is!"
    ANH
    Tarkin: "The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You my friend are all that is left of their religion.
    Vader: "Obi-Wan is here. The force is with him.
     
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  7. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    The Jedi and Sith philosophies couldn't be more opposed.
    But I love the symmetry.





    "Always two there are..."
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]










    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]







    [​IMG]
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    Jedi suspects wife is against established government (democracy)
    [​IMG]
    Sith suspects (unknown) daughter is against established government (dictatorship)
    [​IMG]















    Jedi trial
    [​IMG]
    Sith trial
    [​IMG]
    Later; knightings
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  8. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I’m struggling to think of what Sith Lore TROS gave us? I don’t think anything in the sequels is as fundamental to the expansion of it as the ‘rule of two’ and the concept of multiple Darth’s. There’s more Sith history revealed in the opera conversation in ROTS than anything I can recall from TROS.
     
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  9. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Some of it is stuff hardcore fans know from Clone Wars or the EU and perhaps take for granted. Other stuff is new to the saga entirely. The most notable being the transference of a previous Sith Lord into the apprentice who kills them, so long as the one killed is prepared for it and knows how to do so, creating a hive mind of Sith in a singular body. That’s one of the biggest additions.

    ROTS’s talk of cheating death is essentially visualized through this and a series of other scientific techniques. Those lines become more than just lies. Sidious was always a Master or half-truths and that now adds to the list.

    But as far as the episodic saga is concerned we didn’t get to see any kind of Sith location or temple before or history of Sith to this degree with the giant statues of previous Sith legends.

    The episodic saga also didn’t show the amount of acolytes who follow the Sith religiously to this degree. We know the Empire had a legion but the Sith itself felt much smaller as an organization in the present of going exclusively by what the saga films show. We always saw some but Exegol shows a legitimate cult of followers. Some of whom are brilliant scientists.

    The wayfinders represent the closest thing in the episodic saga as holocrons of knowledge that we’ve seen in the episodic saga.

    I think TROS also better implies the separation of Sith rise from the Empire’s rise in an easier to understand way for viewers who haven’t delved into the EU as much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  10. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    So I certainly liked seeing the Sith temple and holocron, but that’s more iconography than lore... as Sith temples, holocrons and essence transfer have been seen in everything from EU novels/comics, games to the Clone Wars/Rebels cartoon. Yes, it’s the first time we’ve seen some of that iconography in a live action film (and I would have liked to have seen more of it), but I don’t see it as an expansion of lore. That came with the PT, and the subsequent EU, such as KOTOR and Bane novels. I’m sure we will see Sith lore expanded in future films though.
     
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  11. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Which is just stupid. A selfless sith act. Lol. Is it suggesting that to turn to the dark side you must kill a sith? Thats not how the force works. Even within the sequel trilogy that was pulled out of thin air. Palpatine comes back from the dead, only to want to pass the throne to his relative? But then this whole process is mute again when he discovers another thin-air concept that allows him to survive, when his very emergence in the very same film deals with coming back to life?

    Lmfao.

    Nope. I bet Lucas--the author of star wars--was on the floor laughing at that bit. He may have even had Jake Lloyd over for dinner.
     
  12. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Fair enough but I was thinking of it more so from the perspective of the masses who only watch the live action films. This was a great way to expand their understanding of the Sith as a group and I’m glad that TROS did that before the end of the saga.

    For me, it makes better use of some of the things that Lucas gave us in ROTS than the original end of ROTJ did.


    I love it to be honest. Makes both ROTS & ROTJ more interesting to me and makes me wonder more about the other dark arts we’ve yet to learn about.

    Some fans hate and fear change and I can appreciate that. We put a lot of time into becoming experts in these things and then it changes. However, I like these additions to the saga.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  13. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
     
  14. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Theres the saga as per Lucas, and then what new authors attempt after the fact. New just for the sake of being new? Or new as in turning the force into something far less mysterious amd grand. If the process of the Sith is known for example, which this film tries to say in that this ritual is generations upon generations old, it eliminates, and contradicts, the mysterious nature of the force. It lessens the scope and possibilities.

    Somewhere along the lines the EU got too into the films. As Lucas had always said, "theres his films and that world, which i know nothing about". Just because a licensed is had doesnt mean it justifies its existence upon someones already established piece of work. Someone making an addition to a Monet or mimicking his work does not make it a better piece just because its new and/or resembles the already existing art.

    Ive got no problem with new. The prequel trilogy i find, in many ways, better than the OT.
     
  15. YT-2400

    YT-2400 Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2008
    If we are going to be literal in believing his words, that Palpatine was going to possess Rey, then this is the only way I can fathom this new ability at this time. That it has to be a new technique recently learned and not some process that has existed for untold generations.

    However, if it is more akin to a Highlander Quickening, would there even be a duel between master and apprentice? Palpatine was willing to let Rey strike him down. To me, he showed no signs of wanting to defend himself when it first seemed she was going to do so. The only condition that mattered was that she do so in anger.

    So would it be much of a duel at all? Wouldn't it be the same condition before now if this ritual was to be enacted? If the apprentice was properly taught and the master found him worthy, wouldn't he offer the same deal to the apprentice? Gain power through an act of hatred and sacrifice. If the apprentice couldn't or wouldn't, then the master would strike him down and start over.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  16. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Just like ROTJ, he gave the "strike me down" speech.
     
  17. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    That would be interesting. It reminds me of how Darth Bane wanted to possess his former apprentice, Darth Zannah, when he had effectively chosen Cognus as his apprentice. But Zannah triumphed over him, and the only remnant of his personality that managed to possess her was his tremors in his hand that then affected her hand. There was a theory going around after that trilogy came out that all the Rule of Two Sith had been possessed by Bane's spirit. But they misinterpreted that ending, as that was not the case.
     
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  18. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    What's the deal with the Sith Worshipers (Sith Eternal) on Exegol? There are enough to fill a stadium. Where they really there? And what about the other bandaged and hooded attendants working on the ground?

    Are the 'Imperial Dignitaries' in Return of the Jedi who accompany the Emperor's visit to the Second Death Star connected to Exegol and the Sith Eternal? In Rogue One is the attendant at Darth Vader's Castle who alerts Vader to Krennics arrival a Sith Eternal as well? What about the strange hooded aliens in Snoke's thrown room?
     
  19. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I love it too. Bringing the Sith lore from ancillary materials into the forefront it awesome. I would have been cool with the ST delving even further into Sith lore....though it might have been a bit much for the general audience.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Kathleen Kennedy make mention that Dave Filoni is one of the people that she runs things by when it comes to SW lore/rules including projects that end up on the big screen?

    Exactly! I loved that they were mysterious and unexplained. It's like all those weird vaguely clergy looking guys Palpatine was meeting with in his ROTJ throne room.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  20. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Who is that?
     
  21. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Dave Filoni is the protege George Lucas chose/entrusted with carrying on "how Star Wars works."
    Basically, while creating The Clone Wars together, Filoni sat under the learning tree of George Lucas and is now the (unofficial?) guru of Star Wars mythology. The reason I point that out is because Filoni (and a lot of the creative team at Lucasfilm) is not some new guy that was brought in after the sale to Disney. He is an OG from the Lucas era and he (from everything I can tell) is routinely involved in making sure the mythology of any new Star Wars entity is in line with George Lucas's vision/ideas for the larger Star Wars mythology, ie The Force, The Jedi, The Sith, etc....
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  22. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    So hes the director of the extended universe.

    Theres Lucas' universe, and then that other one.

    Fun excursions for some, but not the real deal.
     
  23. jaimestarr

    jaimestarr Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2004
    I don't follow. George Lucas created the Clone Wars series. Do you not view The Clone Wars that George Lucas created as part of the George Lucas Star Wars universe? Lucas developed the look, story, scripts, production, etc. He did this all while essentially taking Dave Filoni to school on what is and what is not Star Wars.
     
  24. Luke'sSeveredHand

    Luke'sSeveredHand Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Considering George Lucas created and supervised The Clone Wars, I'd say FIloni is very much involved in Lucas's universe. If you're going to be flippant, at least be accurate.

    Filoni was and is Lucas's protege. Disney would be wise to give him more creative influence moving forward if they desire to retain any bit of Lucas's fingerprint on the franchise.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  25. The Regular Mustache

    The Regular Mustache Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    The rule of two has been replaced with the rule of too hot, at least according to Rey.