main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

  2. The Boards Are Now Reopened For Business:

    READ THIS: your ability to post here depends upon it.. See the new rules thread here. Bans can and will be handed out to anyone who doesn't abide by the forum rules.

ST How TROS Recontextualizes The Sith

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by EntechednReformatted, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    TCW and the other things that Filoni has worked on are all part of the official SW canon.
     
  2. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Its Lucas' way of at least having the official star wars product share a similar message amd theme, but even Lucas himself has always said "theres the films and then everything else."

    For example i dont think Darth Maul, in Lucas' mind, was thinking "oh yeah darth maul survives this and comes back later". I think Lucas recognizes that what he has created is loved so much that he allows other people, and the fans, to have fun with it.
     
  3. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Lucas brought Darth Maul back. Lucas told Filoni "We're going to have Darth Maul on the show, he's not really dead."

    The Clone Wars team took it about as well as fan did. And then they had to figure out how in the hell they'd pull it off.

    It makes sense in away that if Darth Maul, with the help of Mother Talzin, could hang on to life after being cut in half, that the Sith Master would have an even more powerful way to cheat death.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  4. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    He still considers the films as a separate entity. You can find him saying that on more than one occasion, im sure.
     
  5. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Lucas considers the Clone Wars TV series the same entity as the films. That's what you find him saying.
     
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  6. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Agree with you there, the Clone Wars seasons are canon but Lucas always said the movies are on a different level to the other stuff. So more canon than canon I guess.

    Lucas was apparently very involved in Clone Wars though, so it is arguably the highest level of canon outside of the films.

    Eta - To be fair I think Lucas was referring to the original EU when saying it was separate to the films.
    I feel like he would say the Clone wars series was on the same level to generate more interest from fans. The six saga films are a rich tapestry, I wonder if he even considers the sequel trilogy canon...
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  7. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Hes being modest, in the same way that he is with Indy and Empire and Jedi.

    The stuff outside of the films is made for fans. He understands the cultural impact his films have had, and thus understands fans want more of his world because he they adore it. Its as simple as that. He greenlit Caravan of Courage. Thats official. The Holiday Special is official. Theres a lot of official stuff, but theres always been the films and everything else.
     
  8. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Caravan of Courage is not canon. People are mixing up terminology in here, though... what Lucas said before about the EU was valid then and fed into how there used to be levels of canon, where the movies were the top level. But when Disney purchased LFL, everything BUT the movies and TCW were made non-canon (also known as "Legends", which is the new name for the original EU). And everything going forward from that point, including the new novels and shows such as Rebels and Resistance, are also canon. And now, unlike before, everything is on just one level of canonicity.
     
  9. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    True.

    My post was just my opinion. To me the original six films are ultra-canon :p
     
    EHT likes this.
  10. obi-arin-kenobi

    obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2005
    The moment I learned they weren't telling Lucas' story, essentially his piece of art, it created a disconnect in that its now a story fabricated by different authors.

    No disrespect meant to anyone, I just think it is now, and will be considered in the future, "Lucas' Star Wars and Disneys Star Wars".
     
  11. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    How far back does it go with the Sith Master having earlier Sith Lords in him? Are we talking dozens of former masters? Hundreds? And over how many years or centuries do these voices stretch back?
     
  12. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  13. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    I think it started with Darth Bane. Every time a Sith apprentice destroyed their master the master's soul latched itself onto the apprentice. Up until Darth Vader that is.
     
  14. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    It's either Darth Bane or 1,000 years before The Phantom Menace when the Sith go underground. The ability to transfer essense from Sith Master to Sith Master makes sense as the impetus for the Rule of Two.

    Darth Bane starts the Rule of Two. Is Darth Bane the first Sith Lord to have his soul latch onto his apprentice? Or is Darth Bane the first apprentice to have his Master's soul latch on to him. And once the two Sith Lords are one and know the process works, do they being killing off the other Sith Lords?
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  15. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Actually wanted to question this exact point. What is the point of the Rule of Two now, if the Sith are basically Highlanders?

    Lets be conservative and assume that Bane is the first to figure this out. In that case, he has absolutely no reason whatsoever to establish a Rule of Two. The more Sith, the better. Teach many/all of them this ability, and wait for the inevitable bloodshed that the Sith embrace to take its regular toll. It won’t matter. The survivors will have the abilities, memories, skills, or whatever it exactly is that is transferred, regardless of whether its just one long train of master-apprentice pairs or thousands of contemporaries. It doesn’t matter if the wrong apprentice kills you, or if another master kills you. The victor will still be possessed.

    Just through sheer weight of numbers, having a large number of Sith around means those that survive will have greater power than if there are only two. Not only that, but it increases the number of apprentices they can put between the masters and anyone who might kill them without being possessed and screw up the whole process.

    Heck, even if its just to set up a bunch of patsies, Bane should be encouraging as many potential Sith as possible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
    Jedi_Fenrir767 likes this.
  16. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2015
    You have the Old Testament and the New Testament, of which their respective foundations are the Pentateuch and the Gospels.

    Thats if Lucas still holds on to this view or even did so at the time of his retirement. He was heavily involved in The Clone Wars and Underworld.
     
  17. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    My hunch is there is more to it than just knocking off the Sith Master and the Sith don't just except anyone. Only the best of the best can be a Sith, and it's possible only the best of the best are strong enough to have this ability.

    It's quality over quantity. I think the wrong apprentice would be someone who is too weak to handle the power of the Sith. Really they are only looking for upgrades. So the apprentice only kills the master once the apprentice is stronger than the master. They don't trade down.
     
    Jedi Merkurian and Vasco_Rojo like this.
  18. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    That doesn’t really fit with the stated reason for the Rule of Two, nor is it supported by any of the context we have. Clearly there can be many more than two Sith at any given time. They don’t necessarily need to let any force adept in, but they absolutely benefit from allowing more than two.
     
    Jedi_Fenrir767 likes this.
  19. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    What is the stated reason for the rule of two?
     
  20. ScreamingWoman2019

    ScreamingWoman2019 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2018
    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,23298-1,00.html
    Now, the VD (Exogol section) goes to explain how the sith runes describing the rule of two are 'nearly identical' to some sith incantation denoting the nature the dyad. So, the rule of two and the dyad share some connection.

    The Kylo Ren section states: 'in his mind probe of Rey, Kylo Ren feels an innate connection to the scavenger, unaware that they form a prophesized dyad in the force'

    How could the rule of two denote a prophesized dyad? Maybe those 'nearly identical' sith runes refer to something nearly identical in english.
    Rule means 'regulation' but also 'the act of ruling'. The rule of two would be also The Rule Of Two: a corule, a dyarchy. That's Vader in Bespin and also Ben/Kylo in TLJ and TROS. It's also,compared to the original sith rule, an increase of symbiosis: family -Skywalker- leaking through the cracks of a mask. According to Lucas, 'even when Anakin turns into Darth Vader, he is still the [prophesized] Chosen One'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  21. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    It is self evident that Bane’s concern was ensuring that there would not be so much internal strife as to allow for the Sith to destroy themselves or their heritage.

    If killing each other is a way in and of itself to pass on their knowledge or live forever, however, then that concern is rendered irrelevant.
     
    Jedi_Fenrir767 likes this.
  22. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Can you think of any reasons the new info from TROS would not render the rule of two irrelevant?
     
  23. Turinsd00m

    Turinsd00m Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 9, 2014
    It all plays out in my mind like this:

    1. The Rule of Two was created by Darth Bane after he realized the following:
    a) The Sith could never defeat the Jedi forever because they would never unify like the Jedi do. All Sith are inherently too power hungry to do this. That is why their great empire ultimately fell at the hands of the Jedi.
    b) The Darkside could not be used to extend the life of a Sith's physical body indefinitely, or keep their essence from returning to the Cosmic Force after death.
    c) The Darkside could be used to transfer one's power and essence into another body if that body is a strong enough conduit for the Darkside- but it involves the ritual Palps mentions in TROS.

    2. The power and essence transfer that happens during the ritual isn't a typical possession though. The former master who gets struck down does have their power and essence transfer into their apprentice; however, they can't control the apprentice directly at first. It takes time for the master's essence to gain more influence in the mind of the apprentice, and as time goes on the apprentice starts to see this growing influence as a new connection to "the source of their power" just like Palps started to feel towards the time of ROTJ. Ultimately the essence of the former master leads the apprentice to finding the insight to take on their own apprentice and repeat the process. I believe that none of the Sith realize what is truly happening until the essences of the former Sith have gained too much control over them to stop it.

    3. Despite their lack of unity in life, once the Sith are killed by their apprentices and join the collective Sith in the new host- their essences do become one- as they all need the new hosts to keep themselves from returning to the Cosmic Force.
     
  24. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Can you? Preferably without coming up with your own headcanon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  25. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of New Films star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    If there are multiple apprentices they can team up and kill the master. Then it's no longer the strongest of them who survives. It's no longer the wisest. It's just whoever has the most allies. With only two you maintain the philosophy of survival of the strongest. We also don't have any canon source for when Bane learned the ability of essence transfer. In Legends it was after he had already created the Rule of Two. He sought the power because he didn't feel Zannah was strong enough to defeat him and he wanted more time to train a new apprentice. They can easily carry that over into the new EU only now a part of Bane does survive and then Zannah does the same with her apprentice and on and on and on until Palpatine.

    I also like the idea that the battle for supremacy amongst the Sith is more than just a physical one. Even after the apprentice destroys the master they still have a spiritual battle against them for control of their own body. Only after this ultimate test can they truly claim to be the new Sith Master.