PT How Would ROTS Have Dealt With the Clone Mystery?

The super basic answer to all the Sifyo-Dias stuff is answered in Episode II basically with "War has broken out." "Excellent" and Episode III "Execute Order 66". He was killed, the bad guys are behind the clones and so on. The who died when and who ordered what when is a bit of business that the one Clone Wars episode about it kinda answers in more detail.

 

Ok that's possible too. But because the timing of it seems to be not long before his identity was stolen, personally I find this suspicious.

I guess if the Jedi use the map to search planet by planet for clues regarding the Sith (after Maul was confirmed to be a Sith, the Jedi immediately knew there had to be another one), Kamino wouldn't be on their list then. And even after Obi Wan already suspected something going on in Kamino, if he wasn't meticulous enough to notice the pull of gravity and just went by what the librarian said ("If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist"), he would not have gone to Kamino.

 

I'd buy that, BUT

"that doesn't seem possible, how could the Jedi come up with an army so quickly"

muddies the water further...unless he had no clue what the army was gonna look like.
What should have happened is a simple "ahh, so the Jedi have discovered the army"
or not have that line in it.

 

That is Dooku dialogue to Nute Gunray and Poggle the Lesser, and Dooku perfectly knows how and where it came from, he's lying to keep up the Sith's scheme so he's feigning ignorance. He doesn't want to tell them that yes the Sith are behind the Republic army that is currently attacking, he's pretended to be the loyal Separatist leader. So "Oh! I'm shocked! really! Ahem"

 

heh, I guess that makes sense.

 

For sure, it is quite possible that Sifo-Dyas was killed just so that Dooku could steal his identity.
I am only saying that it possible that he was killed for reasons not connected with the sith and they just used his name.

Search planet for planet?
That would be VERY impractical. This is a galaxy and so the number of planets would be huge.
The empire had probe droids scattered all over and they were looking for bases or other signs of rebel ships etc.
Looking for two people is a bit more demanding.

And Obi-Wan only found out about Kamino because he had a friend that knew of it and he gave co-ordinates. Obi-Wan could just have left right away and not bothered to go by the library.

Sure the audience can figure out what has happened but the issue to me is, what do the jedi think?
They have been handed a very fishy army and has plenty of reasons to suspect foul play.
And yet they seemingly do nothing about it and then are killed by the clones in the next film.
If the idea was to paint the Jedi as clueless dimwits then mission accomplished.
Otherwise it is lacking.
The Jedi are presented with a mystery and yet they seem to forget all about it.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

If his friend didn't know the coordinates, Obi Wan would have a little more difficulty finding the location if it isn't in the archives. With the coordinates, it still makes sense to do some research before going to a planet he isn't familiar with. Had he trusted the Jedi archives to be 100% reliable, he might have just brushed aside his previous clues (regarding Kamino) as inaccurate information.

 

Well, you have your answer right there. If Kamino weren't a planet that most people had never heard of, then it would be pretty silly to try to hide it by deleting it, wouldn't it? That would just ensure that someone who was familiar with the planet would eventually notice it was missing from the archives and get suspicious.

But since it's a planet that most people don't even know about, then erasing it makes sense. The only reason the Jedi would ever bring up Kamino's file in the library is if suspicious activity connected to the creation of the army were to come to their attention and lead them to it. But if all recorded information about Kamino is erased from the database, and no one really knows about it except for weirdos like Dex, then there's a decent chance that any investigations into such suspicious activity would lead them to a dead-end. At least a decent enough chance that it makes more sense to erase it than not.

It was only because Dex had direct experience with Kamino and told Obi-Wan where and what it was that the Jedi managed to find it. But if the Jedi had simply noticed some weird financial activity somewhere or something like that, then the deletion of Kamino may well have stymied them. There are a lot of planets in the galaxy. If someone were to erase one, it would be pretty hard to figure out unless you knew exactly where to look.

 

Well, let's clarify a bit. Dooku was trying to cover his tracks and the tracks of Sifo-Dyas, at least, temporarily. Dooku would have erased Kamino in case he missed something that would lead them to Kamino sooner, rather than later. Five years in and something happens that draws attention to Kamino, before it was time to implement the next phase of the plan, would certainly sabotage the whole affair. Once it was time, Palpatine needed a reason to send the Jedi to Kamino and an opportunity presented itself in Nute's petty vindictiveness towards Padme, gave him a starting point.

People overthink it. This is a plot by the Sith to destroy the Jedi and Palpatine used an ex-Jedi turned Sith to help him.

Right. Nute and the others had no clue that Sidious was Palpatine and that he was manufacturing a war that he was then going to blame them and the Jedi for, before eliminating them. They had no clue that they were being used.

 

Why is Dex a weirdo?
He has traveled around and knows a lot of people. That does not make him a weirdo to me.
The Kamino are cloners and makes armies and have done so in the past.
So anyone that has bought anything from them, knows about them.
Nothing in the film indicates that cloning or making armies was illegal so the Kamino would have no reason to hide. And since they want customers, it would be counter productive to do that.

And since they make armies and if any of those armies has been involved in a conflict or war in the Republic, the Jedi would have a reason to be aware of them since they protect the Republic and are basically the only "military" the republic has.

But the deleting is not really needed as it seems that for the last few decades or centuries, nothing about Kamino has ever reached the Jedi's ears. So why would it do so now?
I would imagine that Dooku/Palpatine told the Kamino NOT to contact the Jedi order.
Also, I know several people have argued that the Sith's plan was for the Jedi to "find" Kamino and the clone army at some point. One wonders how if all data is gone and that they Jedi are too thick to look at other maps, assuming those exists.

Further, the way this was done left clues behind, like the gravitational pull.
So this actually increased the risk of them stumbling across it. Probably not by much but if some Jedi were studying astronomical data and noticed that some celestial bodies moved around a place where there was no system but should be given said movements. That could lead to questions.

If you want to hide Kamino, don't delete the system, rename it. And maybe alter the basic data, so that it says that there are only gas giants and uninhabitable planets there. Done. Leaves far less trace and still makes it unlikely that anyone would go there. If the Jedi get the name Kamino, they won't get anywhere.
And if they have coordinates, the systems looks uninhabited.

Lastly, if the Sith wanted the jedi to find Kamino or that they would only learn about the clones when the Kamino people contacted the senate. Either way, if they look into their archives for Kamino and notices that information has been purged, that would make them suspicious. And it is not in the Sith's interest to have the Jedi ask too many questions.
Which is why I don't buy the convoluted plan of trying to kill Padme, failing, use the dart, have Obi-Wan talk to Dex, go to Kamino and all that. It gives the Jedi far too many reasons to smell a rat.
Now granted, Palpatine probably figured that the Jedi are too dumb and clueless to put two and two together so didn't think it was much of a risk.

To sum up, to me, this was a badly handled mystery. Questions are set up for the jedi that are then forgotten. "Who deleted the file and why", do the jedi try to find out who did it? And so on.
In order to make it clear to the audience what happened, the Jedi learn far too much as well. The Jedi have tons of reasons to ask questions or to be suspicious. But they seemingly do nothing and in the next film, they are all killed by the clone army, apparently never seeing it coming.
Given how little the film does with this plot point, you remove it entirely and not loose anything.
And you would make Obi-Wan look less dim. He talks to Dex, gets the info, then reports to Mace and Yoda and tells them about Kamino. They ask what is known about the place and he says that the planet is a known maker and seller of clones but there is little else in their files.
They wonder why they would be involved in a plot to kill Padme but decide that Obi-wan should go there.
And then the film goes on. The deleted file never comes up again after Obi-Wan talked with Yoda so better remove it.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

As I've said, the saber dart was meant to lead the Jedi to Kamino. The Sith knew that the Jedi would find a way to go to Kamino, as there were other methods of figuring it out. That was never a problem. But a problem would exist if something happened prior to that point.

Ah, but as we saw, Obi-wan didn't even think that the planet's location was erased. It didn't even occur to him that was the case. So no one would think too much unless they were doing an in-depth anaylsis of the maps. Even Jocasta Nu had no clue that there was an alteration and she was the expert.

Bingo on the latter. That's why when Sifo-Dyas Lightsaber was found, the whole endeavor was almost torpedoed, because Dooku was sloppy after carefully avoiding pointing clues to the Sith. The Jedi just believe that Sifo-Dyas operated on his own, but now realize that he was being used by the Sith. And even if the Jedi suspected the Sith earlier, there's nothing that they can do about it. They need the clones to win the war and they cannot prove that they're a danger to the Senate, since there is no proof that it was created by the Sith.

 

Eh, like Yoda's last lines "Victory, not victory. The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen, begun the Clone Wars have." Basically the war machine gets rolling at Geonosis and keeps rolling all the way through the Clone Wars. The Jedi and the clones developed a symbiotic relationship over the course of the war, they have the army and now they have to use it. I don't think they're clueless, I think they're caught in the grind of war from Geonosis onward cuz they need them so they can't throw them away because the guy who ordered it was dead. In the Clone Wars TV show, there was one Clone who figured it out that they could be turned but they thought he was crazy and he got dead.

 

I think the Jedi thought that Dooku ordered the clones for his Separatist army.
The Sith wanted to make it difficult (but not impossible) for the Jedi to find Kamino so that the Jedi would think that the Sith didn't want the Jedi to ever discover Kamino.

 

That's the opposite of a clue, unless you're already specifically looking for Kamino. If Dooku erased the effect the gravitational pull of Kamino had on other systems, then it would cause a cascading trail of anomalous astronomical data that would stick out like a sore thumb. If Kamino's gravity isn't there, then everything around Kamino moves differently in the records than it does in actual reality, which means there would be red flags everywhere, spreading outward in all directions from where Kamino should be. Whereas if you simply leave Kamino's gravitational effect intact, no one is likely to notice anything is off. The only red flag is the absence of Kamino itself, which, again, you would only notice if you were already looking for Kamino.

I don't think the Jedi had any theory at all about why the Sith ordered the clone army. It doesn't make any amount of sense unless you know about the Jedi kill switch embedded in the clones' brains Manchurian Candidate-style--which, of course, they never suspect, because they don't know they're in a Star Wars movie (and also because Palpatine so masterfully blinded them to the truth during the Order 66 arc).

That's why Yoda openly admits they have no option but to let the Sith trap continue to play out and hope they can figure it out before it's too late. They know full well at this point that they're playing into the Sith's hands somehow, but as far as they know there's nothing they can do about it right now.

 

The Jedi did have time to investigate before the battle on Geonosis.
When it was clear that their records had been tampered with, Yoda could have decided to look into that.
But all he does is meditate on it.
After Obi-Wan gives his report from Kamino and goes after Jango, the Jedi could have sent someone to dig deeper. Like trying to find out if Sifo-Dyas was really killed before the army was ordered or not. And they could show pictures of Sifo-Dyas and ask if they know who that is.

And after the battle, when they know that Jango worked for Dooku, that connection is never even mentioned by the Jedi. Did they not think that could be relevant? If no, then they are idiots.
They have little choice but to use the clones but one line or two about trying to find out more about the fishy things with it. RotS could have them say that they have found some stuff out and this explains why they are distrustful of Palpatine but they have not enough evidence to go public.

I have mentioned this before, in Babylon 5, the main characters have reason to suspect that there has been a coup of sorts and the President was killed and the vice-President might have been involved.
But they know that they have not enough evidence yet so they go about their normal duty but keep their eyes and ears open.

Nope, if several celestial bodies act like there is a something there but the maps show nothing, then if someone is studying astronomy, they could notice that. So they need not be looking for Kamino, they could just be studying that area of space.
That is how some studies are done now and have been done. Astronomers notice how some stars move and if they see that they "orbit" something even if they don't see this something. Then they can think that there might be something that has a gravitational pull there. This is one way to find planets, try to study how the parent star move and if and how it is affected by the gravity of orbiting planets.

I suggested that Dooku alter the name of the system instead of deleting it. That way, there would be no issues with gravitational pull.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

This is one of the things that really annoyed me about the prequels, how the Jedi came across as bumbling idiots who where completely clueless as to what was happening, this is a prime example.
Basically the Jedi discovered that there was,

1. A secret army being built on Kamino (a planet that was deleted from the archives, which was something only a Jedi could do).
   
2. Found out that it was being modeled on a Bounty Hunter named Jango Fett.
3. Discovered that Jango was working for Count Dooku, who was now the leader of the Separatists and was once a Jedi (who could have been the Jedi that deleted the archive file).
4. Found out that the Trade Federation where the main ones of the Separatist movement, and through there leader Dooku found out that the senate was under the influence of a dark lord of the sith named Darth Sidious, and that the Trade Federation had once been in league with this dark lord.

After finding out all that the Jedi then trusted the clone army, even though it's clear from these 4 points that the sith where obviously involved somehow and lead no investigation and trusted that it was all above board.

I personally think it was the intention of the sith that the jedi found out about Kamino and the clone army. Sidious needed the clone army for his plan to work and for the war.
Jango could easily have used an as effective and more common dart then the specialist one he used, knowing the jedi could then analyse the dart. I also find it difficult to believe that as soon as the jedi found out about the army that the war was effectively already starting, meaning they really had no time or manpower to ask questions and investigate it, as they where now required in the field to help with the war effort.
This is why I believe the sith planned the jedi to find the army, due to the events the led them to Kamino and the timing of the start of the war which quickly followed, meaning they had no them to investigate the army.

 

Why would it be obvious that the Sith were involved? Why would the Sith create an army for the Republic to combat its own army? Why not just use the Separatist army to overwhelm a defenseless Republic and then take over? Unless you know the plot of the movies in advance, it doesn't make sense. It makes much more sense that Sifo-Dyas did create the army, that Jango is simply a mercenary working for both sides, and that Obi-Wan's discovery of the army was exactly as accidental as it seemed. As unlikely as all those events might appear, they at least follow some sort of coherent logic. And they also have the benefit of being much more psychologically palatable, which goes a long way towards making the Jedi believe them. The alternative is accepting that everything they believe about the Republic they serve is a lie.

 

There are two things that point to Sith involvement.
1) Mace and Yoda talk about how they did not "see" this army being made and how their abilities have been made weaker. Yoda also says that only a Sith Lord would know of their weakness.
So the Jedi's foresight ability has been weakened and only the sith knows about it. So they are the only ones that know that the Jedi would not be able to "see" this clone army.
2) The template of the clone army is working with Dooku, a former Jedi, turned to the dark side, who uses a sith style lightsaber, sith powers and is working with known sith associates.
Given that this is a galaxy's worth of mercenaries, the odds that he was hired by pure chance are very low.

As for the idea that Sifo-Dyas did order the army, there a number of things that makes that dubious.
1) The template for this army has never heard of Sifo-Dyas and mentions another name, that is unknown to the Jedi.
2) Obi-Wan says that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered. If the Jedi can confirm this then they know without a doubt that the army was ordered under a false name.
3) The cost for this would be huge, far beyond the means of any single Jedi and possibly the whole Jedi order.
4) The timing is very suspect. The army is ordered about ten years ago and is ready within days of it being needed to fight the seps forces. You could argue, "Jedi foresight". But problems, one we are told that the Jedi's ability to see through the Force is getting weaker. And also, if one Jedi could foresee the seps, their army and when it would be ready for an attack, how come no other Jedi has seen this?
Jedi have the ability to see the future, this we know. So if one Jedi is able to see this then some other Jedi would be able to see this or something connected to it. Not all to be sure but that just one of the thousands of Jedi saw this is very odd.
5) The person who placed this order said to be acting on behalf of the senate but the senate never ok this.
So the order is at best illegal.
6) The Jedi archives have been tampered with, something only a Jedi could have done.

Individual, any one of these things MIGHT be dismissed as coincidence or random chance.
But ALL of them?
Only a terminally stupid person would leap to this conclusion directly and without considering other alternatives.

So the Jedi have an army that is very fishy and that has connections to Dooku.
One of their own has been involved with this.
If they are able to confirm what Obi-Wan said, and I have argued many times they should do that as soon as possible and nothing indicates that they would be unable to confirm or deny what Obi-Wan said about Sifo-Dyas death being before the placing of the order.
If Sifo-Dyas was not involved then who deleted the file?
Dooku is a possible suspect here, he was a Jedi so he had access and the army template works for him.
And if they know that Sifo-Dyas did not do this, then they have an illegal army that was ordered under a false name.
Refusing to work with it would not be smart but neither is accepting it without any questions or reservations.
Show some inkling that the Jedi suspect foul play and mention that they will make some effort to look into this.

Lastly, the question of motive is relevant. The Sith could just quickly crush the republic with the droid army.
What would be the result of this?
Most likely the republic would surrender more or less right away as they have no means to fight the seps forces.
So a quick war and not that much loss of life and while some Jedi would die, there would be survivors.
What would the seps do? Take over as rulers of the republic? Possibly, what the seps want is not made super clear. Leave the republic and force the senate to agree to all their demands? Again possibly and this seems more likely.
So the republic would likely still exist after this war and so would the Jedi order. Defeated sure but still there.
What happens now with the clone army in play?
Despite the clones being outnumbered by the droids, they beat them at Geonosis.
So the two sides are now more even. So the war would now be much longer and much more costly.
And more Jedi will die.
And if the war is won, the loosing side would not just be beaten but likely crushed.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Sidious wanted a long war to kill as many Jedi as possible, a one-sided battle would just see the Republic crushed within months maybe a year. Sidious also wanted emergency powers to make him an even more powerful leader and difficult to take down, which was given by the senate to build this army.
It would also be a lot easier to manipulate the creation of one army as oppose to a few armies, getting the Separatists to place pacific orders into there droids without leaking knowledge of those orders would be difficult the more people involved. This is why one army would be better, they could watch the creation of those clones and place specific orders without anyone getting suspicious.

But this is all simply in hindsight.

The point is the Jedi should have been extremely cautious of the clone army from the moment they discovered it. Varying points I raised should have at least made them suspicious and also realize the influence of the Sith was likely involved.

As far as my opinion on who was behind the creation of the clone army, I still firmly believe it was Dooku who placed the order (or possibly Dooku hiring someone else, like a shapeshifter posing as a Jedi), although saying that it could easily have been Sidious himself, but my impression is Dooku. Although this is pure speculation on my part.

 

That doesn't mean that the Sith were involved. The Sith would exploit that weakness to be sure, but that doesn't mean that they would create an army meant for the Jedi and the Republic.

Not really. If Jango was indeed considered the best and others were ruled out, then he would be hired based on that.

Right. An associate who might have money and connections that could get the job done.

But they couldn't confirm that he didn't do that. They can only confirm where he was when he was given his last assignment to where he was, when he was reported killed.

See number one.

Not everyone can see the same visions of the future and the past. Why didn't any other Jedi see Shmi in trouble? Why doesn't Kanan see the same vision that Ezra saw meeting with an old friend of Ezra's parents? Why didn't Yoda see Ahsoka's vision of Padme being shot at? Why didn't any Jedi see Padme dying?

Right and they think that Sifo-Dyas did this on his own and had to tell lies to get it done.

But they don't see it that way. Their thinking is that the Sith would do as they've done before, which is build an army to attack and crush the Jedi. Not play a two sided game of chess, in order to give power of the Chancellor, who is in reality the Dark Lord himself, so that he could legally destroy his enemies. The Jedi are fighting the last war over again, but the Sith are now using nuclear weapons instead of machine guns.