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CT Human Jabba

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Jo Lucas, Sep 4, 2015.

  1. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    I have not the video, but you guys can confirm it. There's a footage of Han Solo speaking with a fat guy in the place of Jabba. Who is that guy? and what he is doing there? Is this the original movie showed in 1977 or what?
     
  2. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015


    Yes, I've found it!
     
  3. Encuentro

    Encuentro Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 8, 2013
    Yes, and despite the narrative that he was just a stand-in until they were able to come up with a composite, Jabba was originally intended to be human.
     
  4. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    Can you cite a reference on this? I've always understood Lucas intended to do a stop-motion creature to replace the actor, but ran out of money.
     
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  5. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    I have his D6 stats.
     
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  6. Encuentro

    Encuentro Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 8, 2013
    In the novelization, Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, Jabba was human. The novel, of course, was credited to George Lucas, but was ghost written by Alan Dean Foster and was based on the screenplay. As it turns out, I am partially mistaken, as the novelization differs a bit from the screenplay on this point. The novelization has him as human. The screenplay describes him as a creature with "eyes on stalks." Interestingly, the novelization of Return of the Jedi had to account for the change in Jabba's appearance, explaining that Jabba's change in appearance was due to a disease.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_From_the_Adventures_of_Luke_Skywalker
     
  7. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    That scene was never part of any version of the movie, as it was deleted early on the editing process, but it was the scene as originally shot: with Jabba as a human.

    The stop-motion thing is just not true: there was never anything planned for a stop-motion creature (no artwork, design...), nor was the scene shot in a way to make that possible (Han interacting so closely with the actor, circling around him). Jabba was a human, and nothing from the time the movie was made (or the script) suggest otherwise.

    However, Lucas felt a human didn't create enough impact, so he deleted the scene and eventually transformed Jabba into a slug.
     
  8. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    I've read the novelization several times, and your assertion here is incorrect. The novelization describes Jabba as a "great mobile tub of muscle and suet topped by a shaggy scarred skull". He's bipedal, and in that sense could possibly be described in a general sense as "humanoid". But the claim that he is described as any way "human" is inaccurate.

    EDIT TO ADD:
    From Wookieepedia, with source:

    Lucas intended for him to be a furry, Chewbacca-esque character, and had actor Declan Mulholland play the role wearing a shaggy coat. Mulholland would have been replaced with a stop-motion creature during post-production had the scene not ended up on the cutting room floor.[31]

    31.0 31.1 31.2 31.3 Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope Special Edition Featurette
     
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  9. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    double post
     
  10. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    Where does the screenplay describe Jabba as a creature with "eyes on stalks"?

    As far as I know, the shooting script said: "Jabba the Hut and a half dozen grisly pirates and purple aliens stand in the middle of the docking bay. Jabba is the grossest of the salivering hulks and his scarred face is a grim testimonial to his prowess as a vicious killer."
     
  11. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    The "source" is what Lucas claims nowadays, which is not what was originally intended or shot. In fact, that statement is confusing three different versions:
    -Actor Declan Mulholland playing a role (which is exactly what happened, an ACTOR, properly costumed, playing a role in a scene that was shot with no intention of adding special effects later).
    -A furry Chewacca-esque character (for which supposedly he wore a "furry vest", which doesn't have any logic, and in any case, could've been achieved with a mask, as with every other creature).
    -A stop-motion creature during post. No matter what Lucas claims, that wasn't ever planed back then. (If it had been, it would've been by far the most difficult and expensive of all the special effect shots of the film, considering how the scene was shot).
     
  12. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    Opun Mgrrrr

    Dexterity 3D
    Blaster 4d+2, Dodge 4d

    Knowledge 2d+2
    Alien species 4d, bureaucracy 4d, indimidation 4d+2, planetary systems: Ison corridor 5d, value 5d+1

    Mechanical 2d+1
    Space transports 4d

    Perception 3d
    Bargain 4d+2, command 6d

    Strength 4d
    brawling 5d, stamina 6d

    Technical 3d
    Demolitions 4d

    Character points 4

    Move 10

    Equipment blaster pistol 4d, datapad, 6,000 credits.
     
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  13. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    Look, I'm sorry but this is a bare assertion. I have no trouble accepting it in and of itself, I just need evidence for it. Without something backing it up it's sheer conjecture.

    I happen to know a fair amount about stop-motion techniques (having followed the art since childhood) and I can think of at least two ways to insert a stop-motion creature into the scene using the technology available in 1976. One would be to rear-project the background plate and simply insert the animated model between the rear screen and the camera. If the creature is bipedal as the Foster novelization indicates, there would be no trouble having Han circle the creature because he (Han) would be part of the BG plate, and would disappear behind the model. The other is a variation on this, with new foreground elements (either live-action or stop-motion) filmed up close to the camera. There are likely other options.
     
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  14. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    Also, in the documentary Star Wars To Jedi the making of a Saga, Jabba was a part of a brainstorm of sculptors lending to options from which Lucas would select.
     
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  15. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    Well, I think that was during the making of ROTJ segment. Thanks for trying to help, though!
     
  16. RainSolo

    RainSolo Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 31, 2015
    I knew they originally had a human guy in place of the CG Jabba from the special editions, but thats my first time seeing that clip. It's so strange hearing an accent that familiar (I'm Irish) in the SW Universe!! :p
     
  17. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

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    May 27, 1999
    In the ANH radio adaptation, scriptwriter Brian Daley sidestepped the matter by having Han be confronted by Heater, who pretty much acts as Jabba's debt collector. Here's the segment; it starts at about 1:00 and runs until 4:20...

    Han is played by Perry King, with Joel Brooks as Heater. (Personally, I think Daley did a good job making the scene feature less superfluous than the movie's scene appears.)

    And, to further muddy the waters, there's this...
    [​IMG]
     
  18. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    And what is the evidence backing up the stop motion creature idea? Comments made long after the film was made. It's the same situation as "Greedo/Han shot first". Claims made years after the film aren't evidence at all, in my book.

    On the contrary, LACK of evidence (if you read the Making of Star Wars, awesome book by Rinzler which covers the whole making of the picture), there is absolutely nothing documented that backs up your position. No designs for a creature Jabba, no plans to create a stop motion creature... (I'm not denying your knowledge on the area, but just think: how much stop-motion work was done in the first SW movie? Nothing at all, except for the chessboard sequence. There is no SF in the whole movie as complex as what you're suggesting!).

    I'm no expert in stop-motion techniques, but I think what you're suggesting is far more advanced that what could be done by ILM in 1976, anyway. First, the "background plate" is no BG plate at all: it's a moving shot that INCLUDES the actor! How do you create a creature that covers him perfectly, while both he and the camera are moving?

    In any case, there is no documented evidence that backs up your (and Lucas' ) claim that a hugely complex SF sequence was planed for the sequence. They just shot a scene as any other regular scene, with a costumed actor, with natural interactions between both characters, and a moving camera. Even in 1997 it was extremely difficult to create a CGI Jabba that would replace the actor. In 1977 it was not only impossible....but it was not even conceived.

    Obviously, I can't find actual evidence (other than lack of evidence) to support that something didn't exist.
     
  19. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    Yeah, the subject is complex, I know.The truth is Lucas never liked a regular human-Jabba. It's possible that he originally wanted something more outlandish, and as soon as he saw the scene he decided he didn't like it. He cut it and started thinking about an alien Jabba. Actually, the public script that was corrected in 1979 changed the description of Jabba to an alien (and incorporated the Episode IV: A New Hope title). And if I'm not mistaken the comic was made in 1978? (that Jabba uses a design from one of the cantina creatures, btw).
    And it's true that Lucas first thought about a possible stop-motion animation to restore the scene as soon as 1981 (after Empire had a lot of stop-motion), but soon abandoned the idea because it was still impossible.
     
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  20. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    cut scenes where jabba was played by a human. they were put back in the 97 special edition with a cg jabba. the human actor was jabba's stand-in who was going to be replaced but they never finished it.
     
  21. oierem

    oierem Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    they never even started it
    and it wasn't a stand-in, it was an actor in full costume and makeup.
     
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  22. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    he was still a human being though. what are you talking about?
     
  23. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    I want to be clear that I'm ready and willing to critically examine Lucas' statement. About 12 years ago, when the internet collectively investigated Lucas' claim that Vader and Luke's father had always been the same man throughout his writing process, the evidence to support Lucas' version of events was found wanting. The early drafts of the first movie and its sequel proved that there had been a Skywalker father character who was a distinct personage from Darth Vader. Lucas was proved to be mistaken, or lying, via documents his own company, Lucasbooks, had published in The Annotated Screenplays. Later, in the 2004 DVD documentary, Lucas at last amended his position to say that he had "gone back and forth" on the idea while writing both films. There are those who believe he amended his statement based on the results of the internet inquiry into his earlier claim.

    Objectively, the filmmakers' account of the making of a film is a more credible claim than a fan's conjecture that the filmmakers are lying... unless there is some evidence that justifies the speculation. Without that evidence, it remains a non-evidential hypothesis.

    The explanation given by LFL for the lack of a Jabba design is that the scene was cut shortly after production, before the creature would have been created. The Greedo scene was re-written around the cut. Having read Rinzler's book you'll know what a difficult, chaotic production the 1977 film was. Lucas had to ask Fox for more money to complete the effects (which he wouldn't have gotten without Alan Ladd's championing him to the Fox execs). He opted to cut the Jabba scene owing to the expense and time it would have taken, and devote those resources elsewhere.

    Your rhetorical question and answer "how much stop-motion work was done in the first SW movie? Nothing at all, except for the chessboard sequence" is false and misleading. Either there was stop-motion work in the first film, or there wasn't. You're saying there was "nothing" and then allowing that, in point of fact, there was something, is a contradiction in logic, and a disingenuous way to make your point.

    Well, the film would be projected from behind onto a screen behind the model, while the animation camera films from the front. The animated model blocks the actor playing Jabba. Analyzing the footage linked in post #2, the moving shots would present no further problem because the figure remains in the same place in the frame. I concede that the shots in which Han blocks Jabba, or lays his hand over him, would have been tricky. It wouldn't have been impossible, however, especially if Jabba were furry so that the original camera elements could have been retained for those overlapping areas. Lucas may have realized how time-consuming this would be for an animator, or had it explained to him by Phil Tipett, at which point he decided to cut the scene. It would have been tricky and expensive, but not impossible -- a description which applies to most of the model and effects work in the original film.

    If we can find one statement from anyone involved with the production that favors your view, or some plausible reason why they would lie, then the weight of evidence will begin to shift. Until then, it's your conjecture and appeals to incredulity over the word of the filmmakers.
     
  24. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    To me, the biggest supporting evidence for a human Jabba is that they went and filmed the scene with an actor in costume. As you yourself noted, having the actor there and being so close to Han and touching him would make it harder to put an effect in his place.
    So why even bother?

    It would be more expensive to hire and actor and make a costume for that actor. It would be both simpler and cheaper to film the scene with no Jabba there.
    Also, consider eye lines, human Jabba is shorter than Han so Han is looking down when talking to Jabba.
    If they put a creature there that is taller than the actor then Han's eye lines is not going to work.

    What this might be is what is commonly called a reference pass, that they shoot the scene with a person there, just to get the timing right, the eye lines etc. Then they would shoot the real thing.
    But again, why go through the expense of hiring an actor and making a costume. Esp, as you again note, they didn't have a big budget. They could just have used anyone.

    It is possible that Lucas at first wanted a creature Jabba but didn't have the budget for it.
    So he made Jabba human, cast an actor and made a costume so that he could have the scene. Then after filming the scene he felt it wasn't really needed and got rid of it entirely.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  25. Dandelo

    Dandelo Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 25, 2014
    I love how Jo Lucas' particularly simple questions sparks interesting discussions :D

    Keep it up Jo :D
     
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