Lit Humans v. Droids: What's the difference?

I wonder if the penultimate arc from the last few years run of the main Star Wars comic would shape anyone's views in this thread.

IG: @jedisufism

 

This is one of the few behind-the-scenes moments when C-3PO gets interrogated for his service.

The molten elders are a fantasy element. The Neverending Story used similar fantasy elements with its rock man.

Spoiler

Elders: "...Why do you serve the flesh?"

C-3PO: "Well, it's my job."

Elders: "All flesh will leave you."

C-3PO: "Well now, that seems a bit of a broad brush."

 

@Dawud786
Were you trying to use those molten elders to convince people of something? What were you trying to convince people of? C-3PO tells them it is his job to serve his owners. The molten elder responds that everyone C-3PO serves will pass away.

Are you suggesting the intelligence of other droids has been joined with the molten elders after they were melted down? C-3PO could be melted down to join his intelligence with the molten elders?

That is fantasy. It has no bearing on scientific realism (cause and effect).

 

The point is possibly that the molten elders are inorganic life - like a version of droids, but one that had evolved rather than been constructed - hence their empathising with 3PO and trying to give him advice.

 

Here is a group of molten men. Here is a group of rock men. Does that change your views?

Here is my equivalent with the interrogation scene of Reese from the first Terminator film.

Should robots, androids, cyborgs and whatnots be allowed to become more intelligent than us humans so they can time travel and mess everything up? The Terminator film series convinces me nature has placed natural barriers on what we can create as human beings. Each of us is a unique individual. Computers and their hierarchy of "tools" are thankfully not unique individuals. "Thank the Maker."

deleted the video because of profanity: check out it out on you tube

​

 

I can't help but wonder why you are dismissing "fantasy elements" in this discussion of droids in a fantasy universe?

Moreover, your default to God and creationism may well invalid your entire line of argumentation in others eyes because they regard belief in God(or gods) as mere fantasy. Thus, dismissal of fantasy creatures in a fantastical setting about droids in that fantastical setting is *extremely* hypocritical. Just on principle it's silly simply because the Star Wars galaxy *is* fantasy.

The discussion of droid sentience should be rooted, first and foremost, in the setting of Star Wars and its fantastical elements. Informed only somewhat by out of universe considerations. For instance, the debate on artificial intelligence and artificial consciousness in the world we know.

For someone claiming "logical consistency," you are remarkably blind to the flaws in your methods.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Humans v. Droids? What is the difference?

I'm looking at a core of scientific realism in Star Wars. The droids have hardware, programming, and storage. They also have a Maker.

There is no doubt it is a space fantasy fictional universe. This fictional universe would not work without a core of scientific realism. I have tried to keep my posts focused on the biological-level. Other posts have demanded that spirituality be addressed in this topic. I think they have demanded that because they insist droids in SW and real life can have consciousness, sentience, and a spirit. I have argued that only unique individuals have these things.

Robots are tools. They are tools for human beings. In SW they are also tools for other sentient beings. That keeps it simple. Robots are composed of mass-produced parts. Each of us is a unique individual with parents. See the logic?

What is the core of scientific realism in Star Wars? That's what is important. Fantasy creatures and fantasy monsters that make rare cameo appearances are not the core of scientific realism.

You are welcome to your view. How does showing images of talking molten men contribute to logical consistency? You threw that up there and claimed it might change our views. But did you support how those fantasy images may inform our views?

 

Especially when they are given programming to ape sentient fleshy life forms. Sooner or later the facsimile might as well be what it is based on. After all much of what we do is performance. You perform gender, you perform social etiquette, etc. If a droid portrays a personality long enough, then it might as well be their personality.

As for droids improving on weaknesses of humans in order to fit certain roles; that really changes nothing. Artoo and Threepio are tools and thus physically adapted to meet different needs; however a human who does not meet the physical needs of a human to survive is still just as much a human as anyone else.

Droids having specialized body parts does not preclude them from being given, or naturally getting themselves sentient brains

 

Well so far we've never created any sentient AI here in real life. Until that happens, we won't really know if it's possible to do so.

 

IMO the "lesson" from the Terminator films isn't that "creating AI is wrong" it's that "creating AI and then mistreating it is wrong."

The solution is to make sure that, from the beginning, AIs are humanity's partners rather than humanity's tools.

 

Star Wars has vanishingly little scientific realism right from the start.

Furthermore, proclaiming scientific realism while appealing to creationism is rather farcical.

You have convenient dismissals of anything that doesn't fit your narrow view of this matter. Scientific realism doesn't really work when we are dealing with a universe which apparently has sound in space or that major technologies are powered by magical crystals. Star Wars has about as much scientific realism as Lord of the Rings.

You can't make assumptions about the possibilities of droid sentience and then simply ignore those things which dont fit with your predetermined conclusion and act like you're engaging in good faith.

Star Wars has stone based lifeforms that recognize droids are cousins and treat them as people. It has crystalline based creatures as well. It once had a droid whose limiters were turned off that developed what can only be understood in Star Wars as a soul(I-5YQ).

Ignoring these things doesn't make a stronger argument. It shows a stubborn refusal to consider anything but your own dogmatism.

IG: @jedisufism

 

I agree, but the arrogance is in taking the established wisdom for granted. It's still the established wisdom.

But still people he was entirely comfortable purchasing.

In his old age? Sure, I doubt he'd be nearly so comfortable.

It's a question of whether they can sense droid minds.

If they can, then that they did nothing for droid rights is abominable, no matter how far they extended their "circles of compassion". I'd rather believe they were simply ignorant than standing idly by in the face of the oppression of an entire species.

Quite right, which is why the ability to sense thoughts and feelings in droids (as Force users have proven capable of in other non-organic lifeforms) would be significant.

I'm not immediately recalling anything but I'll take your word for it. Wouldn't surprise me of the late stage OR and certainly not the EU's NR.

I dunno. Seems to me that if you're asking if something is capable of thought, the most relevant experts would be those capable of literally sensing thoughts.

The Jedi function as diplomats, mediators and counselors. That's their true speciality. They're not just on call to fight other people with lightsabers. They're the official mystics and wizards of the Government.

I'm certain Republic-Jedi relations had ups and downs. Eras where they were more trusted and depended on vs eras where they were seen as bygone relics of no relevance... but if we're talking the early days of the Republic? The era where they were first established as highly trusted and valued to the Republic? I'd expect them to be almost in lockstep.

Though, to be clear, it's no huge deal to me if that's not the case and the Force/Jedi had nothing to do with anything and GFFA science has somehow proven that droids are non-sentient all on its own. I'm fine with that.

But if TPTB ever planned on doing a big "justice for droids" arc? Then, yeah, I think the Force angle would be required because "Oh we we were just ****ing stupid for 25 millennia" is weak.

I was pleased that Vader could sense something in the rock people, if not the emotions he was familiar, and that he made an effort to mentally dominate / "reprogram" them through the Force.

Uh, I mean, not pleased that he almost enslaved a bunch of people, just pleased that they weren't treating the Force like a bio-field. It's often an issue.

 

True. But there is more of a burden to prove robots can have sentience. Some will argue something is an indicator of sentience. Others will disagree. Proof of sentience cannot be established until it is too late. If human beings got themselves into a terminator film series scenario, they would be saying, "Yeah, these bad robots have sentience."

If they are merely tools, they can't become partners. Your statement supposes human beings can hurt or injure a robot's feelings. That is not true since there are no feelings. They are not unique individuals with parents.

Humans have parents. Humans are unique individuals. Droids have Makers. Droids are not unique individuals.

True. But SW still relies on a core of cause and effect to build the narrative. It is space opera.

Oh, so now you bring in this "distant cousin" relationship. Interesting. I don't think Lucasfilm and Marvel care to explain in much depth how these stone people are sentient and relate to droids. If there is a distant cousin relationship, Lucasfilm and Marvel will milk it and drag it out until no one remembers. Even the writer who brought that in probably sees no value in explaining those lava people.

This is my first time seeing these lava-rock elders.

The comics are fertile grounds for fantasy elements that don't need to be explained. They can bring in organisms composed of all sorts of exotic materials and hint everyone is related. That feels nice. But does it offer consistent world-building?

 

God you're making me hate the term 'maker' with your constant reposting of the same argument.

 

That is the core of my argument. Biological life creates unique individuals who have genuine emotions. Science fiction wants to twist that and tantalize our imaginations with fantasy hybrids. Somehow, we are going to overcome our biological limitations through these fantasy hybrids. Robots are tools. Hopefully that offends someone.

 

Clones also have "makers" rather than parents - and are not unique individuals genetically. What makes them unique is differing memories and experiences. Yet most posters will agree that clones are people.

And the best way to prevent a "terminator films scenario" is to (when a machine mind is sufficiently humanlike) is to assume sentience, or sapience, or whatever you choose to call it, and treat them well.

 

The fundamental problem here seems to be that you can't fully accept the world of Star Wars and insist on conforming its contents to something other than what it is.

IG: @jedisufism

 

Well.....isn't that why we have headcanon?

 

Clones are people. They are like identical twins. They are getting someone's DNA who had parents.

Ha! Treat them well? Do you think they would thank us for treating them well? When you put them on the same level as human beings, they start pushing buttons and figuring things out. Then you might suspect your neighbor is an android or the bully at school is an android. Next you get Androids integrating into society. How does your idea of treating them well benefit humanity? How does your idea of treating them well benefit the animal kingdom and eco-systems?

My points have attempted to find a core of scientific realism behind droid behavior. I have offered explanations for their behavior other than sentience. Your lava rock elders had no impact on me. Those images of elders only emboldened me.

Yes, we have head canons. My focus is different than yours.

I see some offended fan boys.

 

...I see zero offense taken in the whole three posts made between your previous post and this one. If anything, most recent posters have been patient and level when countering your arguments.

 

3PO shows gratitude to Luke for treating him well.

 

The gratitude is programmed. There is a hollow core to the gratitude. The gratitude is a giant black hole of emptiness.

But is that patience? Tolerance for different views and disagreement?

 

It's possible that what Cray did was a botched entechment, because she's using a hodgepodge of human technology and captured Ssi'rukh technology, rather than the whole process being done by them. It's a plot point that Luke can sense the enteched presences at Bakura through the Force. And Luke calls the Ssi'rukh "stealers of souls" very early on in that book.

IMO a society with "androids as partners" is going to be more successful than one with them as tools.

Iain M. Banks's The Culture series is a good example. Because of their partnership rather than toolship, the androids have become vastly powerful and intelligent, and the society has become a happy, post-scarcity one.

We know at least that in the newcanon, like in Legends, some droids have gotten manumitted:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/K-OHN

so we know it's possible to have droids on a social relationship other than master and servant.

 

Now you mention it, I recall too that Ssi Ruuvi enteched could still be sensed in the Force.

The question is, what does Ssi Ruuvi tech do? It separates souls from bodies kinda and captures them within technology. While I can see technology do that, that seems to proove one can bind a soul to midichlorian-free technology. Do they entrapp the soul within tech, like happened in a similiar unintentional way to Callista's spirit, or do they bind the soul to the tech, as if giving the soul a new body? And how to make sure free will is blocked so the new technobeast does not turn on its masters?


This prompts me to take this to an entirely new level: Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!

This implies the soul or astralbody etc. are the true selfs. These incarnate themselves in fleshbodies, or techbodies or stonebodies etc. for a reason. Incarnation means becoming flesh, so we need a different term for those that seek other bodies made from stone, wood, metal, etc.

I'll get back to this when I have more time later or tomorrow got an idea!

 

I have no idea. I just completely delete the Ssi-ruuk from my headcanon