ST Hyperspace Use In The ST

I wouldn't make that argument no. But I would say it's possible Luke didn't immediately fire up the lightsaber just as soon as they entered hyperspace. Also, if it were only meant to be a 5-10 minute trip (as others have alluded to), then why would Chewie bother starting a game of Holochess?? (unless he knew it would be a while, so he decided to do something to pass the time.)

LOL he would say that, wouldn't he!?

Although I appreciate that they had Finn TRY to do that in TROS with his "one-in-a-million" comment.

 

i swear no one is listening.

As establsihed by this movie, ROTJ, Rogue One and the Clone Wars. Ships can sense when your hyperdrive is starting up. A star Destroyer can easily disable your engines before you jump.

Just like how in TLJ they detect Holdo is getting ready to jump they just think she is running away to draw their attention away. They could have easily stopped her but they didn't.

That is why its not common as it's easily stopped if you are paying attention.

 

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But I got that part, like I said it almost works for me. It's just that how they could have "easily" stopped her doesn't add up for me. The Supremacy is huge, good luck moving it out of the way of a projectile travelling at the speed of light. Jumping into hyperspace themselves? Surely they would have just hit the Raddus on it's way towards them. Blast it to pieces or disable the engines? They just spent half the movie trying to do that and they specifically stated that they couldn't penetrate the shields at that distance.

No one's ever been desperate before in Star Wars? Not even in the CIS fleet mostly commanded by expendable droids? And really the kamikaze attacks themselves weren't the issue for Japan, it was the number of intended kamikazes that were shot down before they could reach their targets, because they had to travel a lot slower than the speed of light.

There's no hyperspace ramming in Rogue One otherwise Vader would have been turned into space dust. There's a sublight collision with a ship that was preparing to go into hyperspace. As far as TCW there's no issue with hyperspace ramming a random moon even if it did happen because moons aren't going to be equipped with any countermeasures and there's no real reason to wonder why people don't do it more often. There's no benefit to it at all and in fact was set up by their enemies specifically because it's a terrible outcome. Also just from the first picture it's quite clear that the Executer has shields capable of protecting it in such an event, and they weren't even expecting it before hand either.

 

And at that point in the film the distance is no long an issue - the Raddus is no longer running away (in fact it's now flying directly at the Supremacy) and the distance between the two is enough that the Supremacy now has no issue hitting the much smaller escape ships.

And the Supremacy has "thousands" of guns (how many thousands, we don't know, but probobly quite a few). If they really wanted to they could open up a can of buttkick on the Raddus so hard it's failing shields probobly would'nt even survive the first volley.

I'm sure the CIS is fine with throwing away their droid starfighters in sucide attacks when nessesery, but why waste their more expensive warships in that manner?

Wrong - we see the transport give off the telltale engine pulse that always accompanies a hyperspace jump, so it was indeed jumping when it struck the Devastator.

The point is there's precident, both in canon and legends.

 

While there's a glow - a case could be made that there's been no chance to accelerate:

 

Maybe - that's a fair point. But jump or no I doubt it would have done much either way, given the small distance between the two ships and the size of the two ships relative to each other comparative to the Raddus and the Supremacy (and the thickness of where the Gallofree hit relative to where the Raddus hit)

 

The Raddus is still flying away up until the point that Holdo decides to maker her move, at which point she just turns around and does it. Hitting the ships was never the problem, it was destroying them. The smaller escape ships have no shields though.

Evidently not much to the chagrin of Hux. "What is the point of all of this if we can't blow up three tiny ships?"

I'm not saying that would be their first choice, the point is the level of desperation you need to reach to launch a suicide attack is a lot lower when you're a tactical droid. If you're outnumbered and going to be destroyed anyways this seems like a good way to take multiple capital ships with you. I mean even if you missed you'd theoretically just get away successfully since there's no hyperspace tracking at the time. Certainly not the kind you can pull off while doing evasive maneuvers in the opposite direction anyways.

It was preparing to jump but it never got the chance. Besides that would just be a contradiction with TLJ if that were true anyways.

Precedent for different scenarios or different results doesn't do much good considering I already think the general concept is perfectly fine. It's specifically the way it's portrayed in TLJ that bothers me.

 

Yes it was.

HUX: Ren, the Resistance have pulled out of reach. We can't cover you at this distance. Return to the fleet. What is the point of all this if we can't blow up three tiny cruisers?
PEAVEY: They are faster and lighter, sir. They can't lose us but they can keep at a range where our cannons are not effective against their shields.

At the point were talking about the Raddus is A) no longer running, B) is heading towards the Supremacy, C) is all but out of fuel and thus shield power and D) the distance is no longer an issue as the Supremacy can easily hit the much smaller and much further away transports with pinpoint accuracy even before the Raddus turns to it.

See above.

I doubt tactical droids are programmed to consider throwing away valuble warships, since even with Sidious and Dooku sabatoging the war I doubt the droid factories are delibiratly making units that can do things that would shoot the CIS in the foot.

Heck, even if we are programmed to consider such attacks we're shown that those droids rely heavily on calculations and logic, so it makes sense they would'nt think outside the box or be willing to utalize a tactic that only has a 1 in a million chance of working under most circomstances.

How so?

The Gallofree

• Is smaller relative to the Devestator compared to the Raddus relative to the Supremacy - or, more specificly, it has much less mass relative to the area of the Devestator that it hit then the Raddus did relative to the area of the Supremacy that it it (the Gallofree hits the bulky, thickly-armored bow of the Devestator, while the Raddus strikes a long wing that's fairly thin by comparison to the bulk of the ship impacting it)
• Does not have the benafit of the Raddus's prototype shields, which are noted to have played a role in allowing it to do the damage it did by supplemtery materials.
• Is not traveling the same amount of distance, and as such would not have built up the same amount of speed.

Meanwhile the Devestator, being smaller then the Supremacy, has less area to cover with its shields, so more defensive power can be focused in one area - especially if Vader, who was seemingly aware of what he was jumping into as he came out firing, focused all of his shield power forward. It's also possible that the Supremacy was'nt running its partical shields, in which case its would have no passive defense agianst the attack.

The idea that it would be a contradiction is based on the assumption that every hyperspace ram would involve the exact same variables that were at play in TLJ, which makes no sense.

 

You're just proving exactly my point. They could hit the Raddus just fine at that range, it just happens to have shields they can't penetrate. The smaller ships have no such shields so when they get hit it's much worse. That's why Poe was so opposed to the plan in the first place.

It's not throwing them away if they're going to be destroyed by battle anyways. An emotionless tactical droid would be much more likely to recognize the realities of an unwinnable position and choose the most practical option for going out than a living being with self preservation as a high priority. And the whole problem with the way it's presented in TLJ is that I don't actually buy that it's a 1 in a million chance of working under most circumstances. It seems pretty straightforward and as has been pointed out Hux is well aware what's about to happen before it does, as opposed to "you overestimate their chances" Tarkin with Luke's 1 in a million shot.

I'm not really interested in going in to that much detail but suffice it to say the speed of light is ludicrously high and none of the rest of the equation matters that much any longer if we're going to have collisions involving it. Jumping to hyperspace with an object on the path in front of you is either always devastating or never devastating depending on the rules you decide govern the fictional invention of lightspeed technology and how that jump is achieved.

If they want there to be something different than usual going on then they should have said so in the movie. That's all that they would have needed for me to get on board. If the special anti-hyperspace shields are off for some strange reason have someone try to get them on in time but fail like the Republic Cruiser in TPM. Any sort of explanation whatsoever would have done it but they simply couldn't be bothered in either TLJ or in TROS when they went out of their way to bring it up again but still very noticeably neglected to give any actual explanation whatsoever as to why it couldn't be repeated. Poe might as well have said, "just trust me, I swear" when explaining why it was not an option.

 

Hyperspace was used in the original and prequel trilogies as a way of getting across vast expanses of space in relatively short amounts of time. We were given a bare-bones explanation of how it worked in ANH by Han Solo and that was all we needed.

Using hyperspace as a WEAPON in TLJ opened up a can of worms. It just shouldn't have been done. It makes everyone wonder why it's never been tried before.

 

No they could'nt - they were to far away to effect their shields but the ships were also out of range; Hux says the latter part before Peavey informs him of the former part.

HUX: Ren, the Resistance have pulled out of reach.

By the time the hyperspace ram occurs the Supremacy has zero issue hitting the transports, which are much smaller then any of the ships they've been shooting before and a further away at that point then the Raddus is at that point, ergo range is clearly no longer an issue.

Why not just retreat and save the ships, rather then wasting them? CIS warships are'nt droids that can be pumped out factories, their full-sized starships that cost a great deal of money to and material to produce.

Not only that but the Raddus was'nt even able to destroy the Supremacy or even render it non-operational, so unless your ramming a ship close enough to your own mass you seemingly don't even have garentee of doing all that much.

Well it's been explictely stated to be a one in a million chance, so that's a thing we have to take into account now. Logically, as far as I can think of, the easiest ways of fittting that with TLJ is that either A) Holdo got lucky and could have easily overshoot her target or B) the specific circomstances under which she performed it were a perfect storm that turned the 1 in a million into something like a 10/10.

But not only is hyperspace, despite the applicator of "lightspeed," not actually ship's traveling faster then light but rather into an alternate demension, but even if it involves accelerating to FTL speeds you'd still need to get to the point were your going fast enough to do damage in order to pull of a sucessful ram - if something stops you before you can build up that speed your not going to do much good.

And clearly Star Wars ships can defend themselves agianst things at the speed in which the Raddus hit the Supremacy, since any ship accelerating into hyperspace would need some sort of defense to protect it agianst errent debris and space particles.

Agian, that could easily be the case - perhaps the Supremacy was not running it's particle shields (you also seem to be assuming that the shields in general can deflect infinate energy, which does'nt make any sense becuase we've been shown quite clearly that is'nt the case - they don't need special shields, the Raddus just needs to be exterting enough kenetic energy then the sheilds can repel)

And in the context of TLJ (before TROS decided to retcon things) this was for all we know a thing that happened quite often, we just had'nt happened to see it before.

It's clearly be tried before, since both Poe, Hux and Peavey are able to reconize what she's doing and the latter two register immedatly upon relizing what's happening the danger.

"One in a million" chance aside this is clearly something that peaple already knew was a thing in-universe.

 

Then why didn't anyone in the audience know? This is quite literally a Holy Hand Grenade moment, except those moments only work in comedies. You can perform mental gymnastics all you want.

 

I mean, speak for yourself. I figured out that she was going to ram them as soon as the FO tech said "the cruiser is preparing to jump to lightspeed" (and what's more I did'nt find the concept the least bit unbelivable, "lore-breaking" or whatever other issue some peaple find with it)

I don't need to perform mental gymnastics to explain basic physics

Object 1 is pointed a Object 2, Object 1 accelerates to a high speed and hits Object 2, Object 2 gets really, badly hurt; it makes perfect sense that this would be a thing and would happen the way it did - in fact it would make zero sense if it did'nt happen, becuase that would voliate the first law of motion and that's...well, that's just silly.

 

That's what everyone is doing. People are in here saying that this element of the movie, along withe most other elements, simply did not work for them. Which I can only guess is why TROS had to do so much damage control after TLJ.

 

Lol, TROS did'nt "have" to do anything - and some would argue that it's "damage control" ended up doing more damage then the alleged "damage" that it caused. Anyway your point was that nobody in the audience knew it was happening, to which I responded that I - a member of the audience - did indeed know it was happening almost right away (though I'm not sure why the audience not knowing something was going to happen is an issue, becuase assuming a first time viewing and no spoilers how would they know about anything in the film?).

If they hyperspace ram did'nt work for some peaple, then it did'nt work for them and that's fine. But nothing we've been shown prior tells us that it was impossible and there's really no logical reason that it should be, so it does'nt break any rules save for some peaples imagined, preconcived headcanon "rules" regarding how hyperspace "must" work.

 

Off topic but I’m wondering if in future movies if the hunky evil bad guy woo’s the female protagonist he’s been attacking for the whole story will it be called, “The Kylo Maneuver”?

 

We're listening Cap. We just aren't as convinced.

When he's soundly rejected is that the Rey manuever?

 

No, the Kylo Maneuver is when you get a kiss of gratitude before you die and then the girl who gave it to you immedatly moves on with her life while acknowledging that she'll never mourn/barely knew you

 

I think what I always loved about Star Wars was how it could introduce something like hyperspace, give you minimal explanations, and then move the story along. The story of Star Wars was always about people. And there would be just enough technical jargon to make the universe seem real without getting bogged down the way Star Trek would. (not that Trek is bad, just a different beast)

What was hyperspace? Was it a parallel dimension? Who cares... it allows our heroes to get from A to B in a relatively short amount of time so that the pacing of the story doesn't get bogged down.

Now we have to wonder why Star Destroyers would just randomly dump their garbage in dead areas of space even though another Destroyer might crash into it. Now we're left wondering why the Rebels didn't sacrifice one fleet ship at the Battle of Endor in order to hyperspace ram the main weapon of the Death Star II.

And yes, I'm sure someone can come up with some long-winded explanation, but that's the point. There was never a need for an explanation before and now there is.

 

I mean, there's not really a need for one now.

Ships crashing into space garbage was always a question that was unanswered, and since we were never given any reason to think hyperspace rams were impossible the question of "why did'nt they just ram the Death Star's main gun*" was also always there if decided to look to deeply at things and ask questions you were never requested to ask.

*why assume that would even do anything? Assuming said ship does'nt get blasted before it can jump the DS II is huge, and there's a fair chance a moon was hyperspace rammed in an episode of TCW by a ship far larger then anything the Rebels had at Endor with no damage was dealt to said moon by the impact.

 

I didn't like the portrayal of Hyperspace in general in the sequels. From Han jumping through a planetary shield and Poe's squadron apparently just hanging out in Hyperspace, to the aforementioned Holdo Hyperspace light show in TFA, to light speed skipping and jumping to Hyperspace from within the atmosphere of a planet in TROS, the whole thing just felt like the filmmakers were playing fast and loose with the rules, more concerned with what looked good than what made sense and that's basically how the entire sequel trilogy played out. It's all basically a series "hey, wouldn't this be cool" moments.

The world you're creating needs to be consistent with its rules. Lucas' films largely were. Take light speed skipping for example. It completely undermines the very first Hyperspace jump we ever saw because not only can calculations apparently be made on the fly and in no time at all but actually, Han didn't even need to fly the ship off Tatooine to make the jump. He could have avoided the Star Destroyers altogether. The rebels had no need to fire an ion cannon to clear a path for their ships to get off Hoth and escape. There was no need for Artoo to get the Naboo ship past the blockade.

Between Hyperspace, the Force and a dozen other things it feels like the filmmakers just read basic summaries of Star Wars on Wikipedia and went into those films with little more than a superficial understanding of the material, just making things up as they went along with an emphasis on spectacle rather than sense.

 

No, they just violated the "rules" that some peaple had made up in their heads - we were barely told anything (essentially nothing) about the way hyperspace worked in the other films, so their was nothing to violate.

Han's line in ANH is.
Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

So skipping does'n violate any rules - it's dangerous to do make a hyperspace jump without percise calculations, but not impossible, so all you really need are pre-set caculations and a bit of luck. I don't see how it underminds anything at all really.

Han flat-out says in ANH that he needs a few moments to calculate the coordinates for the jump (and that's after he's already been doing that for a few moments). He's not going to jump in atmosphere becuase that's dangerous* (he did'nt even know it was possible to jump in a hanger until he tried it in TFA, so that should tell you how viable an option it is if somene like him had never tried it before) and he's not going to jump withou percise coordinates becuase that is also dangerous (which he spells out in the film). Just becuase Poe was willing to take an insane risk and lucked out does'nt mean everyone would.

I can drive a car through a closed garage door, through a bush and down a steep hill into the road, but that does'nt mean that's the safe or smart thing to do - just becuase you can jump to hyperspace in hangers or in atmosphere in does'nt mean you should.

*and that goes ditto for the Queen's part in TPM and the Rebels in ESB.

Pre-Disney Star Wars already had hyperspace jumps in-atmosphere, in-orbit and possibly into objects (and legends definantly had the last one), so I definantly seems like they had more then just a superficial understanding of the material.

Actually I'd say they understand it far better then you think they do

 

it doesn't have to move out of the way.

We already see the Supremacy destroy the other Capital ship with in seconds of it getting in range of it's guns. It would be the same thing for the Raddus if they just fired at it.

Key word AT THAT DISTANCE.

Ok imagine you are driving in a car going 100 mph being chased by someone also going 100 mph and there is about 400 meters between the two of you. Now they are shooting at you with an Ar15 which as an effective range of about 400 meters.

Those bullets aren't going to do much to your car since you are at the effective range and moving forward at 100 mph so the force it hits your car is minimal.

Now stop the car and suddenly the gap between you closes extremely fast.

Now their guns are far more effective.

See what is going on now? Why they can be ineffectve at maximum range but extremely effective once they get in range?

The CIS has suicide droids. The buzz droids for example. It's also a risk vs reward. Which is more beneficial. A weapon costing Millions that can only be used once. Or a weapon that can do as much damage and have multiple rolls.

You can 3d print a gun and it can be as deadly as a real gun. But it only gets one use. It's a lot cheaper then a real gun as well. But no military or police force would use a 3d printed gun because it can only be used once.

that's the point. We see that you have to be far enough away to reach light speed but not far enough to make the jump.

clearly not

that fits canon perfectly as in hyperspace you move through objects. The risk is he doesn't exit at the right time and gets pulled out inside the planet.

by that rational Luke using the force to pull his lightsaber out is a holy hand grenade moment as the audince didn't know that was possilbe or that Luke knew how to do it.

 

Ummm, following the rule of set-ups and pay-offs, Luke grabbing something w/ the force at the beginning of the film is a set up for Yoda lifting something w/ the force that is much heavier (the X-Wing) and Vader tossing things.

Something occurring at the beginning of a movie so that it can be used again later is not the same as a random occurrence happening over an hour and a half into the runtime.

 

woosh the point went right over your head


also ramming your ship into another isn't a random occurrence