Saga I do not like the concept of the chosen one

Yes, we can agree on the INTENT or VISION for Anakin's backstory - but I believe the end RESULT, that is what actually was shown on the screen in TPM, is redundant, to say the least. It's obvious from a production point of view that GL spent a lot of time and resources on other things than properly scripting the film and focusing on the "fleshing out".

And that's his choice as a filmmaker. Which is fairly obvious with regards to his own comments regarding his weaknesses. But then I believe another director and/or co-writer could've helped us get a proper execution of the story you describe. Now it is a (logical) mess even if one scene might raise some emotions for some viewers.

A scene (Anakin leaving Shmi) that makes me wonder about the whole Jedi Order doing this un-orthodox adoption-process over and over again all over the Galaxy. It just does not make sense to me how this inept organization, randomly picking up children for blood testing, following a obscure prophecy, actually could be the keepers of peace and justice for more than ONE generation.

(Maybe a pre-prequel could show us that the Jedi Order actually only was one of many parties running for "government" in the Galaxy and that they simply had won some elections with clever propaganda about their rich history of defending the Galaxy.)

 

So your contribution essentially boils down to "I don't like it." Great, opinion noted. But you acted like you couldn't even comprehend the basic storytelling logic.

Qui-Gon isn't a traditional Jedi. The rest of the Jedi clearly don't put much stock in the prophecy until Anakin demonstrates his uncanny power and it becomes clear that the Sith have returned.

That said, I'm not sure what you find so inept about Jedi behavior as depicted. The Jedi don't "randomly [pick] up children for blood testing." Qui-Gon explains that Force-sensitive children born in the Republic are "identified [...] early", presumably through routine blood tests, and then inducted into the Order and trained to Knighthood. Despite your ostentatious affectations of confusion and incredulity, this all makes perfect sense within the context of a fantasy setting.

 

Well, see here, we use the same words, but we choose to interpret them differently.

Actually I am right in the opinions I bring forward as they are based on reasoning, not simple notions.

And secondly, my description of the events (and non-events) in the movies are entirely correct.

For example, your PRESUMPTION of the Jedi recruitment process is actually just that, a PRESUMPTION among others.

Inept is a kinder word for stupid and incompetent. What does the Jedi actually accomplish in the PT?

 

Why would we presume differently? This is ridiculous. You can choose to presume whatever ridiculous scenario you want in order to bolster your claim that the movie makes no sense. You can do that with any movie. You can do that with literally anything if you want to. Are we going full postmodern now?

That's an incredibly broad question. Why don't you try asking a more focused question that's within the scope of the thread topic?

 

Qui-gon and Obi-wan are Jedi. They have the ability to sense people's thoughts and emotions. They knew that Padme was pretending to be a handmaiden long before she revealed herself. Qui-gon senses that Shmi is telling the truth and given that the prophecy is known to the Jedi, he's not going to dismiss her claims off the bat.

The perception was largely due to the special effects and that people who weren't used to mythological and religious elements were now finding them in a new and exciting medium.

Except it does. Lucas starts us off with the young Anakin to show us the boy had many strikes against him in his life. Too old to begin the training. He was too attached to his mother, which plays into his descent into the dark side. He has no control over his life and is easily manipulated by Palpatine because of his worldview is skewered by his early life.

What's to understand? Anakin was destined to destroy the Sith, which he winds up doing. He was stronger in the Force than others and his unique birthright plays into how he's converted.

Which Lucas admitted. Qui-gon was right and wrong about Anakin.

Actually, it is correct. The Jedi are taken from a young age so that they cannot form attachments to people and are taught to understand the Force, so that they are not tempted to use the dark side. Anakin was unique in the regard because of his abilities and the connection to the Sith.

The PT is about showing how the Jedi Order fell, while the OT is about their return in the form of Luke.

 

The only Jedi recruitment process shown in the movies is that of Anakin and Luke. Stop making things up.

Edit: And the origin of the prophecy is not explained. Also a fact.

 

No one is making anything up. Fact one, in TPM, Qui-gon notices Anakin's uniqueness. His quick reflexes, his ability to suss out that Qui-gon was lying and his skills at building/fixing things. These lead into fact two, Shmi tells him that her son has no father which goes against his belief that his father had to have been a Jedi. Fact three, they conduct a Midichlorian test and know what Yoda's count is. This isn't something that's done on a whim. It is done as a means of testing to see if someone can be trained. We later learn that the Jedi take new recruits in at an even younger age than Anakin, in AOTC.

Second, who cares about the origin of the prophecy? What does that matter? It could have been a Jedi using a Jedi Holocron and a Sith Holocron to induce a prophecy, or it could be some guy tripping on Death Sticks and Glitterstim. The origin doesn't matter. What matters is what happens.

 

Well, I care about what is presented to me. That's what matters to me. I want to watch interesting movies. And I agree with the opening post of this thread. Your opinion is made very clear, thank you.

The fact is that the recruitment of Anakin is based on circumstances outside the control of the Jedi Order. That is the essence of a random event. If you believe in luck, you can call it luck. This is despite a prophecy, which is kind of a major thing to have within an Order. Someone (yeah, George I'm pointing at you AGAIN) has not fully understood the concept of a prophecy and an Order.

That's why it isn't properly explained in the movies. Just watch the acting and delivery of those masterful lines by Liam and Ewan... "He's off the charts..." Why even bargain with the junk dealer? "It's our god damn Savior, he's coming with us, republic credits or no credits." Or just head into the nearest cantina and find a pilot that's willing to get you somewhere to be paid upon arrival at your destination.

Yes, the Jedi are inept at even the simplest thing, like traveling from point A to point B in the Galaxy. And to think that they have any comprehension of basic attachment theory... "Yeah, we go for our almighty prophecy of the Chosen One but let's give the kid a childhood trauma without proper counseling, like we've done for a thousand generations."

And yes, you keep posting stuff like "we later learn" when we actually don't learn nothing in the Saga about how to become a Jedi. Luke is following his path, not some universal training course or institutionalized program. Anakin, we have no idea how he is trained except having exceptionally skill to guess a deck of cards. Maybe it's the children of the Jedi Council members that are being insctructed by Yoda? Or the kids from the block next to the Jedi Temple?

 

What does this have to do with their normal process of inducting children into the order? It's completely trivial to infer the normal process from what is shown and said. I simply don't believe you when you say you are confused. There's no possible way you can be literate enough to post to this site and yet simultaneously incapable of connecting these very simple dots.

You're constantly bringing up objections that are directly addressed in the movies, and this is what makes me think you didn't watch them. Anakin and Shmi both have chips in their head which are set to explode if they make any attempt to leave.

Heading into a cantina on Tatooine and trying to find a pilot to smuggle you off the planet seems like a bad idea when you're trying to keep a low profile. They're trying to hide from the Hutts. Most of the pilots who pass through the Tatooine spaceports are going to be working for the Hutts, just as Han Solo was. There's really no other reason for anyone from off-world to be there. And unlike Han Solo, very few of these smugglers and drug-runners are going to be scoundrels with hearts of gold. They're going to be cutthroat pirates always searching for a way to take advantage of a situation to make another buck. Even if Qui-Gon goes alone with the intention of getting off-planet and later returning with a transport to collect everyone else, who's to say the smuggler he hired isn't, as a matter of routine, going to check in with his bosses first and ask them what they think of this strange guy trying to pay his way offworld with a Republic credit account? He'd unavoidably draw unwanted attention to himself. So taking that risk is a last-resort option. That's why Qui-Gon specifically goes to a smaller shopkeeper to look for the parts he needs. He wants to keep as far away as he possibly can from people with direct connections to the Hutts.

Anakin is given counseling. It's called Jedi training, and it's worked near flawlessly for at least a thousand years.

AGAIN:

Now, how do you think this could possibly have been accomplished in an industrialized, interconnected galactic society where Force sensitivity can be discerned from a simple blood test? Can you figure it out? I sure did as a seven-year-old. I must have been some kind of child prodigy.

 

It's explained that it's a Jedi prophecy and one that they don't necessarily believe in at first and only begrudgingly admit it might be true and even then it might not be Anakin.

If the prophecy is true, Anakin is the Chosen One is he not? A prophecy that could be misread.

No one knows for sure. The prophecy only ended up becoming true all along because Anakin decided to follow his path, destroy the Sith and become the Chosen One. He had to choose to be the Chosen One. The path was set out before him but he didn't have to chose it.

 

No one is saying that Anakin being found wasn't a random event. That's generally how prophecies work. They are set forth and it isn't until sometime later, that events happen at random that lead to the discovery of an individual or item necessary to advance the prophecy. No one really goes looking for a person or said item.

That's not the Jedi way. To force Watto into handing over the boy. Not to mention it would attract Jabba's attention and that's the last thing they need. As to finding a pilot, it is not an easy task. Obi-wan only finds Han because he was in desperate need of money and still needed an upfront deposit. That doesn't mean that another pilot will have the same needs as Han, much less would taken two dozen people with them. Plus, they have to find someone trustworthy enough to assist them, which will also take time.

How is that inept? It's not their fault that their ship was destroyed in the first place. Nor is it their fault that the queen's ship was damaged and they had to set down on the nearest habitable world. Nor is it their fault that the only one who has the parts they need, has little use for currency that's about was useful as "Monopoly" money. In the end, they still get the parts that they need and Anakin as a bonus.

They didn't give him any trauma. Qui-gon and Shmi both told Anakin that the choice to leave Tatooine was his and his alone to make. He knew that he was going to be separated and Shmi was the one who encouraged him to go. As to counseling, you don't think that he didn't have that as part of his training. All Jedi training is about dealing with attachments and how to understand them. His turn wasn't about being away from his mother, but his inability to accept that death is a natural part of life and that just because he has the Force, doesn't mean that he can save everyone.

The real problem was Palpatine drilling it into his head that he was the most powerful Jedi ever.

We do learn how to be a Jedi in the films. We see it in the Saga. Luke is following the same training that his father had and all the other Jedi before him. The true test comes when a Jedi must confront the dark side within themselves and choose whether to embrace it or reject it. Anakin's trial was when he was faced with his mother's kidnapping, torture and death. He has trained for ten years to not give into fear, anger and hate. He chooses to do so, because he was raised by his mother first and has been influenced by Palpatine, which is established in the scene where Anakin credits Palpatine's guidance as being instrumental in his being what he sees as being a good Jedi. Anakin's trial comes again when he chooses to use the dark side to defeat and kill Dooku, much like he did with killing the Tuskens.

Luke's test comes in the tree cave when we see him ignore Yoda's warning to not go into the cave armed. He fails because he uses fear, anger and hate to defend himself. Likewise, he lets fear dictate his leaving Dagobah and it plays into his defeat. We see him reject the dark side when Vader offers him everything, including having his father in his life, instead of embracing the power. And we see Luke pass his test when he refuses to kill his father for his crimes and shows him mercy, when he couldn't do that for Dooku.

 

Instead of quotes maybe you can provide a show-reel of this story that you claim is presented? I've seen Luke train to become a Jedi. Now you're claiming that what we see in ESB is the universal Jedi training program? Did Qui-Gon really piggy-back Obi-Wan?

I'm adamant that the Jedi recruitment process is SAID to be structured (and many blindly look at the words) while in fact it is SHOWN to be ad-hoc and random. We are not even TOLD or SHOWN how those kids end up in the Jedi Temple with Yoda.

The Jedi's competence in child and adolescent counseling is at the same time apparently to be taken for granted (not even mentioned how they tackle basic attachment theory) but they fail with an extremely obvious case - Anakin. You don't need to be a scholar to realize that he's gonna get some serious attachment issues. So either Qui-Gonn is an idiot to even bring him or the Jedi are too inept to understand that a SPECIAL case needs SPECIAL attention.

The prophecy is not explained. It's kinda hard for me to prove something that never happened... Seems fantastic that some of you have this grand understanding of the whole SW-saga when most of us already know that the creator GL did not have an answer to all of these questions. Kinda makes you wonder what all these interpretations and presumptions are based on.

 

Explained in what sense? In that that it's origin isn't gone into to the nth degree of depth or something?

That isn't the point at all. The point is that there is a prophecy and that Anakin may or may not be the Chosen One for a prophecy that may or may not ever come to pass.

The Jedi clearly don't all jump on the prophecy and say that it's sacrosanct. They go from paying it no heed and basically mocking it by way of Qui-Gon's belief in it to where maybe there is something to it.

The interpretation is based on what Lucas does across all six movies and tells us about prophecies and destinies. People keep telling each other that their destiny is this or that or may be this or that but what we see over and over again is that people chose their destiny. Then everyone can look back on it and say "Hey now that you've made your choice we saw it was your destiny to do that all along!"

Well quite but it only became that in retrospect. As Lucas himself stated and this is seen in the movies the idea is that many paths are set before you and it's your choice to take the one you decide on.

 

Do you need me to explain the word explain to you? Or were you simply truly unlucky when you wrote me that question?

And yes, the point of the whole Star Wars-saga is that Anakin Skywalker is the Chosen One. I for one, would then like to have this concept explained to me in a way that I find satisfactory. And therefore I agree with the opening post.

GL decided to invent this Prophecy when bringing us the PT - and the only logic is that people being stuck on defending certain artistic choices cause they happen to be in a certain category of films and it just shows how unnecessary these discussions tend to become.

I've tried to follow this through when presenting the PT to my nephew (9 years old) and seriously, his pals are all over the EU, Legends and whatever comics etc now are considered canon but it's still basic questions that are left unanswered - that's not good storytelling. I'm refraining from going into religious parallels but the Star Wars-prophecy has no punch to it, it's just really lame, so yeah, like the midi-chlorians it's just a form of lazy plot device to get the story going.

GL did not have a broader outline for Episode I. He had a plot point he wanted to convey: Anakin being a slave and separated from his mother at a young age. Well, cool. Let's stick with that and then get on with the movie... Instead they MENTION a Prophecy and when you expect that to kinda be a focus of the developing story (since it's introduced like it's pretty decisive) it just lands flat. Something-balance-something, ok, let's show the kid a deck of cards...

 

Yes, you have your own perception of that process, I'm not saying your entirely wrong, but I will debate it's accuracy since the Star Wars-films, soon to be nine of them, still have not shown or told us how or when or why children are inducted in the Jedi Order.

Actually, in TPM they make a point of the slaves NOT knowing where this assumed chip is "hidden on the body". But then again, those few lines of dialogue serve as VERY poor exposition. To me it sounds like something the slaves are led to believe actually. Or that perhaps the Jedi in their capacity had some means to find out how to circumvent that particular problem.

Hey, what??? Are they unlucky or how do you explain their actions? The flawless Jedi park their vehicle INSIDE the enemy ship, next to their battle droids and whatever canons and weapons they have at hand. (And yes, then the Jedi guide the next ship straight at an enemy blockade - that seems rather not-so-clever if you want to avoid being shot at...)

Time for sarcasm... Don't seem to me like Anakin Skywalker handled his separation anxiety that well... Murdering tusken women and children? Choking a pregnant wife? Trying to kill his friend and mentor? No, of course, no trauma for little Anakin thanks to the renowned psychologists and psychiatrists of the Jedi Council...

 

(edit: actually you know what I don't have the time or energy for this today)

 

Now you're just being silly.

We are told. Qui-gon states that the children who have the potential to be Jedi are identified within the Republic. Given that we see Midichlorian tests, it's not that difficult to connect the dots.

The child is raised from birth to learn to love without becoming attached to a single person. No one said it was perfect because there would never be any Sith Lords if it was perfect. But the Jedi have had a high success rate that shows that their methods do work. They fail with Anakin not because they ignore his issues, but because Darth Sidious was undermining Obi-wan's teachings. The fact that Luke succeeds without his constant interference is evidence of that. Likewise, that Snoke had been manipulating Ben for his whole life is a parallel to Palpatine's relationship with Anakin.

The prophecy is explained in the PT. The prophecy is tied to the return of the Sith, the Jedi's powers growing weaker, Darth Sidious becoming Emperor, Yoda stating that the shroud of the dark side has fallen with the start of the Clone Wars and will end with Anakin destroying the Sith. We see this happen in all three films and it is stated in each film what is going on. It all ends with the final ten minutes of ROTJ.

And it is a plot point that is designed to be spread out across three films, just like Luke wanting to know how his father died is brought up and then comes back around over the next two films.

It is shown how and when in TPM and AOTC, as to why, it's pretty evident as to why. They don't form attachments to people if they're not raised by their family. Anakin and Ben are prime examples of this.

Or the simplest solution is the most obvious, which is that they know that there is a bomb and it will go off if they try to leave.

First off, the Jedi aren't flawless. No one has ever said that. Second, they've flown their under the flag of peace. How else are they supposed to get inside? Fly out the airlock. The Millennium Falcon flew into the Death Star. Is Han an idiot? Their ship is destroyed because Palpatine ordered it to be destroyed.

He killed the Tusken Raiders because he let fear, anger and hate consume him. It wasn't because of separation anxiety, but because he failed to save his mother and he lashed out because he was weak. He believes that he is the most powerful Jedi alive and his arrogance has lead him to believe that there is nothing that he cannot do. So when he finds out that he's not all powerful and that he cannot stop his mother from dying, he lashes out. He is being fueled by a power that he has no control over because he has refused to control himself. He attacks Padme later on because he believes that she has betrayed him and he lets his anger control him again. He has no control over his anger, because he is "juiced" up on the dark side like a case of roid rage. He's evil now and he is prone to doing evil things. Just like Luke was prone to evil things when he used the dark side to almost kill his own father.

 

NOPE

But I'll wait around and see if someone might come around and present the story on the Prophecy of the Chosen One, backed up by evidence and also references to the Jedi recruitment and training process that apparently do exist.

 

...and nor did he specify the actual Prophet. And if that Prophet had a proven track record.

 

What does that matter? What matters is what happens in ROTJ. Let me point out a comparison, in "The Matrix", Neo is told about a prophecy of him being the One and it was relayed by the Oracle to Morpheus who relays it to Neo. Then in the second film, we learn is was a lie. A system of control. But in the end, the prophecy does come true regardless of it being an invention of the Architect and the Oracle, because Neo ends the war and saves both Zion and Machine City.

See, who came up with the prophecy and their credibility doesn't matter. Just as it didn't matter that the Sith might have created Anakin to use as a weapon against the Jedi. What matters is the end result. The Sith are destroyed and balance is restored by Anakin.

 

How common were these Prophets and their Prophecies in the Galaxay and/or the (Old) Republic? At what point in time did the Jedi begin their habit of believing in vague statements regarding the future?

Using the Chosen One-concept as a plot device actually raises more questions than answers. It's hard not to simply define it as totally unnecessary as a tool to explain the fate of Anakin/Vader.

 

True. Though it does fit the image of Qui-Gon as a bit of an oddball mystic who delves in strange Force-occult stuff the other Jedi have basically ignored. (Like the Whills and Force ghosting.)

 

Again, why is this important? You keep dodging my question. Look, every time someone has a vision of the future, they're essentially forming a prophecy. Luke's vision of seeing Han and Leia in danger on Cloud City. Same with Anakin seeing Shmi's suffering and Padme's death. And Rey seeing her confrontation with Ben in the woods on Starkiller Base. This has been part of the Jedi's power since the beginning. All Force users have their capabilities. That's why the Jedi and Sith both talk about visions of the future.

No, it doesn't raise questions. Face it, you don't like it and so you look for reasons to dislike it. As to being an unnecessary tool, then you must hate it in other stories where it is used. Hell, you disliked it in the OT. Remember, the Sith foresaw Luke turning to the dark side and said it was his destiny. Obi-wan says that Luke's destiny is on a different path than his.

No, it just means that Qui-gon was already aware of what was to come, just as Yoda and Obi-wan soon discover. Becoming a ghost was only something that few knew of, mostly those who learned of the technique like the Whills and the Force Priestesses. It wasn't something that was meant for every Jedi.

 

Yeah, I just wish that the "image of Qui-Gon" had some actual depth and more character to it - I see what you're getting at and it's the conclusion one makes from TPM, but there's still no answers to where these Prophets and their Prophecies come into play. The whole premise of the Rebels show is somewhat a retcon but at least one is introduced to Jedi Temples and some (new) weird stuff.

The concept of a Prophecy is introduced in TPM and just left hanging. I think I repeat myself now but it's simply not necessary for Anakin to be nothing but a Force-sensitive kid who is trained as a Jedi and falls to the dark side during his tenure as a Jedi Knight. He can still be an evil *** of a ***** and rule the Galaxy with Emperor.

And still on the subject of Qui-Gon, how are we actually to tell him apart from the other Jedi Masters? Has he been searching the Galaxy for this Chosen One? Why is he then stuck with Obi-Wan - seems like a waste of time if he believes the Prophecy...