1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

I have insufficient privileges to post?!?!

Discussion in 'Communications' started by bluealien1, Apr 1, 2018.

  1. Scavver

    Scavver Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jun 15, 2018
    Someone sent me a PM asking if I could post at all and was worried it was just a few of us after things took on a more aggressive tone in some threads, but after a few minutes of watching the forum, I saw no one posting and had a feeling it connected with the mod post. I hope this works out for you guys. It's getting harder to find a place to discuss SW nowadays.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin and Collecting/Lucasfilm Ltd Mod star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    May 25, 2002
    It's all the regular users so don't feel like you've been singled out.
  3. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Nov 20, 2012
  4. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Aug 10, 2001
    Can we have confirmation on this?

    We have a crossover of a couple of JYCC and Movie forum mods in @anakinfansince1983 and @heels1785 but we can also bring more YJCC mods into this?

    I'm all for everyone here being asked to post to a higher standard (and will be doing myself) but I want to see this applied across the Boards. Again in this thread

    Sarcastic nastiness, baiting and flaming (dare I say it bullying) is pretty much an every day occurrence and nobody seems to say anything about it...
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
    CT1138 likes this.
  5. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Screaming Service / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Aug 19, 2003
    Back when you were a moderator this would never have occurred.
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    The YJCC has always had a different atmosphere than the film forums. That was true well before either of us became mods. That thread is more for the YJCC regulars to discuss the films, just as there are threads in Lit for Lit regulars to discuss the films (usually with an EU context) and a thread in the TV forum for those regulars to discuss the films.
  7. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga/JCC Manager star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Dec 10, 2003
    While we're at it, there are some clearly related fan fiction threads that need to be addressed, Chorus.

    I find the lack of Chewie/Maz shipping troublesome, and feel singled out. If this goes unaddressed, I fear I must return to my ways.
  8. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Aug 10, 2001
    Why do defensive guys? I'm simply asking the question. No more. No less. I'm certainly not threatening anything. Why would I? I'm in no position to threaten anything. You are in control.

    OK, but for example if a PT fan went into that thread and wanted to talk about the PT they would get a VERY (and I mean very) rough time as we both know. Surely it's time for all the threads that deal with the movies to the held to a higher standard? Or maybe not. Like I say I'm simply using this moment to throw it out there and ask the question.

    No more. No less.
    wobbits likes this.
  9. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 27, 2017
    Assuming you're responding to those of us questioning the way things have been done, I don't think anyone is disputing that. Just that it would be worthwhile to directly communicate to people that the relevant forums have been temporarily shut down, clearly and explicitly, in that same post. To do otherwise is to invite confusion and ambiguity, which doesn't help anyone.
  10. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Sep 13, 2007
    OK, so I feel like I should clarify something here. I agree with the locking of the forums for this purpose. But I do see the point many are making in here that the communication of the reasons for the locking of the forums were not totally on point. The warning post made it very clear what would not be OK going forward, but it didn't say that the forums were being locked for this... so people wondered why they couldn't post. Also, to me it just looks like people in here are simply asking about the situation. [face_peace]
  11. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011
    Well, here's my response.

    I recommend ignoring them, then. Just don't respond. Take away their screaming voice by not listening. If they want to be heard, dictate that which you listen to. Find out which users are not open to discussion, and avoid their posts. Let them scream into nothingness.

    Honestly, neither version, love or hate, bother me. I'll give them the freedom to say what they want, as long as they don't try to infringe upon mine.

    Anyone making things personal should just be warned and then banned into oblivion. That's all there is to it.

    Discuss Star Wars, not each other...and maybe not even other fans in general.

    Here's where I really get into it. Since it's a giant wall of text, I'll bold some bullet points.

    Since you're open to suggestions and thoughts...

    Do you really think you can force people to, lol, "actually listen"? I don't know how you think you can enforce this, or why you think that it is reasonable or right to even try. But then, these ST forums have (or had) a rule at the top of the page telling people they had to think a certain thing. Basically thought policing. It's just so terribly worded. Instead of making up rules for thoughts and listening, maybe just stick to rules about what people actually post.

    This is not something that is part of the rules in literally any other forum on the site. Not that I'm aware of. How many people "actually listen" in the JCC political threads? How many people "actually listen" in the endless PT threads that go in circles for dozens of pages? I've never even seen a mod even try to demand people listen to each other. Ever. It's not actually part of the rules of the site, because it's unenforceable and opens up all kinds of double standards and cans of worms.

    And how can this co-exist with the ignore function? It's designed to hide posts. People who use the ignore function are ignoring other users, they're not listening at all. And, really, why should they have to? In fact, there was a big discussion on this in Comms, and I'm pretty sure it was decided that people don't have to listen to or read other posts. They only have to control their own.

    Do you think you can enforce the reply part? Everyone has to respond now? This is where you go, "of course not", to which I then reply, "then you shouldn't be saying it". Don't make official mod announcements that say things that aren't actual rules, because it's misleading and, again, opens up problems when it comes to users trying to understand the rules and what they're allowed to do and what they aren't. People might think they actually have to "listen" to everything everyone says. People might think they're forced to reply to anyone who replies to them. Users might start demanding people listen to their posts and reply to them. Can't blame them, the entire forum was locked and the Mod staff says people have to "actually listen". People might think they can't post without engaging in some discussion, because according to you, this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a blog.

    Failure to Read, Consider, Reply and Repeat? Well, here's what you have to say about that.

    Apparently, according to this, it's either or. One or the other. DISCUSS (ie, read, consider, reply and repeat), or get banned.

    It's not actually against the TOS to drive-by post something that is within the rules. You literally do not have to read a single thing posted in response, and you certainly don't have to reply. I know this because there is nothing reasonable you can do to stop it. Nothing. "Hey, get back here and read, consider and reply to this person's post", a mod says to a user who has already logged out. And since you can't hold casual, drive-by posters to this standard, then why should anyone else be held to it? Again, if these aren't actual rules, then don't say them. Don't try to hold some to these rules (regulars), while letting others ignore them.

    Participation here is entirely voluntary and so is the extent. It is up to everyone as to whether they engage or not, whether they actually read and consider what is being said, whether they reply or not, and what they say.

    Now you go, "omg CT of course it's voluntary", to which I reply that you're overstepping your bounds with the announcement, then.

    I mean, look at what you're saying and how entitled it is. You have to read my posts! You have to consider them! You have to listen to me! WTF? No, no one does. If you don't like the way someone discusses something, then don't get into a discussion with them. Simple as that. If you think they're a loud, obnoxious, repetitive brick wall, then don't engage with them. If you do engage with them, then that's on you.

    You make an issue out of repetition and volume, which again is not really against the rules in any other forum. There are many threads designed for endless mindless spam, yet you're going to ban people from posting something with more substance just because they post it too often for some tastes? I mean, in Comms, complaints against spam were taken under advisement but ultimately overruled in favor of freedom to post. Now you're shutting down repetitive comments that aren't one word spam?

    Everyone won't stay or be involved.

    There's a thing called burnout that is perfectly natural and to be expected. It's happened to all of us. After years and years and many, many posts, I rarely go to the PT or OT forums anymore. I've said it all, I've read it all. I was burnt out on the PT forum years ago. So I don't visit often.

    Why should my burnout effect the PT forum and the users who aren't burnt out on it? Why should their enthusiasm for the topics of discussion be hampered just because I find it old and tiresome? Why should everyone have to quit posting because, hey, I've read these ideas before.

    How is anyone who is simply attempting to use the forums as intended being stopped from doing so? I don't feel that I've been stopped....except by those who are telling people to stop posting even though they want to and are in fact enjoying it.

    You can't force people to have discussions. You can't force them to discuss things with people they don't want to have discussions with. You can't force people to read posts or reply to them. You can't force people to listen, either. So don't try.

    You can definitely keep smacking down stuff like this, though, because this is based on what people actually post.

    This is enforceable, because it's based on something clearly against the rules (personal insults and other rude personal comments) that people are doing, not something they're not doing (listening) that isn't against the rules anyway.

    On the other hand, this kind of thing should not be said by mods:

    What people think is beyond your scope. You should probably remove that part.

    No one has to listen to the other side. I know this because it's a fact and there's really nothing you can do about it. But I can ban them, you say. But it's a can of worms, I say. How can you fairly judge something like someone's willingness to listen? Do you know how many people all over the forums (not just ST) wouldn't stand up to these rules? How can you possibly reach into a user's brain and know? And what about people who just don't stay logged in to listen to the other side? You don't have to listen to be constructive. I've seen lots of constructive posts from people who never stay logged in long enough to do anything but post a comment they'd been working on off the boards.

    And, really, is the other side always worth listening to? No, it's not. So why should anyone be forced to listen to the other side?

    What you're saying is that people are entitled to be heard, when they're not. You're getting into terrible territory with this.

    I hate this next part.

    Mods should not be saying this. At all. Ever. What relevance does it have? It's literally not even part of the rules. There's no "You Must Love Star Wars" sign at the door. I've known people, cool people, on this site who have literally never seen Star Wars. So what does it matter? This really shouldn't be the foundation for approaching other users here.

    Do you really think a rule demanding people love Star Wars will go well? How can you even measure it? Is there a love quotient every user has to meet to participate here? Is it like a theme park ride where everyone has to Love Star Wars This Much to get on the ride?

    And what difference does it make? What difference does it make if people hate Star Wars? It's literally just not even relevant to discussing Star Wars. You can hate something and still discuss it. Do you realize every time you say something like this, you give people a reason to believe that Loving Star Wars is an actual rule here and that they have some right to call foul when another user Doesn't Love Star Wars Enough? You make that barrier to entry seem valid, you make questioning peoples' presence here seem valid. We had an actual mod here actually do that very thing relatively recently.

    As long as a person stays within the rules of the TOS, they can hate Star Wars to kingdom come. Because it's not even relevant. Think otherwise? Well, again, you're getting into a huge can of worms where you think you can control the barriers of entry here based on thoughts and feelings. It will blow up in your face. You'll get into unwanted personal questions and toxic fan purity tests.

    Again, I really, really hate this coming from mods:

    It doesn't matter why people are doing something, it is literally no one's business. People can post here for whatever reasons they want. I don't care if they hate every second of it, as long as they stay within the TOS, it is no one's business. Prying into this is not only no one's business, it's against the basic "discuss the topic, not each other" JC rule. Again, every time you say something like this, you make others think loving Star Wars, enjoying their time here, and (most relevant) discussing things with other people "who also like it" (that leads to banning posts expressing dislike of anything) is an official part of the rules and something they can call others out on. It has the complete opposite effect you intend. You invite that which you intend to discourage.

    We shouldn't assume anything about anyone, we should just mind our business instead. This should all be treated as entirely irrelevant, not something that can be assumed, or something that is required to participate here.

    You think can get into examining people's motivations for posting here? You think can moderate personal motivations? Again, you're getting into a can of worms that will take you to a very bad place where everyone and their thoughts, feelings, motivations and everything else about them is scrutinized and measured and rejected if it doesn't pass some bull**** purity test. I know because I've seen it happen to even the most positive posters. One of them is currently a mod in the ST forum.
    G-FETT likes this.
  12. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval TV Screaming Service / FFS! star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Aug 19, 2003
    Our ability to "force" people to contribute to discussion or lose access to "discussion" forums may end up surprising you.
  13. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Sep 13, 2007
    So you're apparently referencing multiple things with your post, and not just the new warning ACOD posted yesterday. I'm simply addressing it at all because you quoted a few things from my post HERE, which was made back in November. The two above, that you had a problem with, are I think being taken out of context and too seriously. Those are not rules. We never said you have to love SW. I was more just breaking the tension and seemingly pointing out the obvious; most people are here discussing SW because they like discussing SW. It was meant to just point out that we all have more in common than we may remember when we're arguing with each other about the details. Based on the number of "likes" the post received and the zero complaints I received about it (until now), I would say most people understood what I was going for there.
  14. DominusNovus

    DominusNovus Jedi Master star 3

    Dec 27, 2017
    Exactly. I popped in after the weekend, noticed that warning, read it, and then went to go post in one of the threads, only to see that I couldn't. My first reaction was to do a quick check to see if I had posted anything objectionable, and only then to check to see if there was a thread like this.
  15. Lordban

    Lordban Chosen One star 6

    Nov 9, 2000
    Precisely. The board system only informs individual users their account does not have sufficient privileges to post - it's, in normal circumstances, up to moderation to convey why, and at the present, this is not done in a straightaway, instantly visible manner, not even for users who did take the time to read carefully through the warning post several times.

    And not everyone is going to look at the state of the particular board at the point they notice they can't post. They might simply be following up on one of their alerts, jump straight into a thread, and see they don't have privileges to post without visible explanation whatsoever on their screen, and odds are their screen will be too far down to see the announcement toast section (not to mention odds are 2 out of 3 their only indication there's something they must read is an 8-size line that actually hasn't been changed to signal there is a new announcement they must read).

    I do realize the staff and moderators here aren't enforcing rules and implementing disciplinary measures to, say, suspend a student or make them stay after hours - that's the lighter job I've held in terms of enforcement, but also one where there is an educative aim, and the announcement I've read is one I can only assume is meant to educate the regular user about what will and won't be permissible going forward. It is also an announcement accompanied with a collective disciplinary measure, namely, the suspension of privileges to post on several boards for all regular users, but that one goes unacknowledged in the very announcement informing them.

    One of the essential rules I drilled into my subordinates in education was to always clearly state the nature and scope of any punishment they were dealing (individual or collective) and the reason(s) it was dealt. Clarity always works to your benefit when applying discipline and expecting some good to come out of it; ambiguity, on the other hand, is often counterproductive, as it can induce unnecessary anxiety and/or resentment in the person/people being subjected to a disciplinary measure, not to mention leaving the person/people being disciplined to discover why they're being disciplined can result in them reaching the wrong conclusions.

    There's another advantage to leaving a clear message in the announcement posts that says something along the lines of "This board will be closed for discussion from 06/18 00:00 PST until 06/23 00:00 PST, to give everyone time to cool off. Afterwards, the rules stated in this post will be strictly enforced": it tells people who missed the "Your privileges are insufficient to post here" sequence to know the TF:N staff were serious enough about these boards needing more regulation to close them off for a day or more after the fact.

    Just my two cents on the topic. I apologize if this read a bit like a lecture - old ingrained habits, I'm afraid ^^ They're offered because my own experience in regulating communities and in discipline suggest this would positively contribute to what you (the TF:N staff) are currently implementing.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
    godisawesome , 2Cleva, CT1138 and 4 others like this.
  16. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

    Aug 10, 2001
    @CT-867-5309 I do agree with the thrust of what you are saying to be honest (and what an epic, thoughtful, passionate and candid post =D= ) but I can also see where the mod's are coming from as things have got needlessly nasty and personal recently (I'm probably guilty as anyone - Though my ire is nearly usually directed at LFL/Disney as an entity not individual user's here and I have certainly never abused or harassed anyone associated with Star Wars like KMT - In fact I have never abused or harassed anyone online or offline in my life)

    Nevertheless it's time to pause, reflect, consider and maybe to look for a better standard and a more civilized discussion moving forwards.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  17. UK Sullustian

    UK Sullustian Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Nov 18, 1998
    Yeah I didn't get that from Chorus's post. I thought I had been banned for mentioning old EU in the spoiler forums.

    So I came here to join in the.... DRUM ROLL.....

    Chorus of Disapproval!


    I'm here all week! Try the veal!

    I do hope we can split out the alt-right racists from those of us who dislike the ST.

    We could be STrangers - compared to the PT's bashers.

    And the facist racists, we could call "facist racists".

    But disliking Star Wars because it has diversity of characters is just.... like... have they SEEN Star Wars?

    godisawesome , 2Cleva, Jedha and 3 others like this.
  18. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

    Oct 14, 2015
    So insufficient privileges are limited to threads, not members?
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  19. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett PT Interview Host/Teh Mole Host/Priest of Jimothy star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Feb 18, 2014
    Correct. It’s effected all new film forums. All other forums are operating as per the usual.
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    A little on my perspective on the difference between “discussion” and “everyone here has to like Star Wars”:

    Disclosure: I do not like TLJ. The New Films mods have never told me that I or anyone else is required to like TLJ, or TFA, or any other movie—and they would tell me just like they would tell anyone who isn’t a fellow mod, in fact they’d probably tell me sooner.

    But...there is a difference between discussing what one does not like about TFA, TLJ, or any other movie in the appropriate threads on those topics while also adding something that one does like in the appropriate opposed to going through every single thread with “What Disney did to Luke is a crime against humanity”, “All Disney wants to do is make money and Star Wars is ruined,” etc.

    The flip side, on a similar mentality that was also prevelant in the PT forum for awhile, is “You just don’t understand storytelling,” “You just don’t understand filmmaking,” or “If you don’t love the film why don’t you go post somewhere else?” (That one was also prevalent in the TV forum for awhile).

    It had gotten difficult to have any kind of discussion around all the ****-slinging.

    My impression of this action and @A Chorus of Disapproval ‘s post was, If people could come into the forums and just discuss what they like or dislike without being armed with a load of **** to sling, that would be great.
  21. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Aug 19, 2003
  22. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2013
    I'd been railing about the nastiness in the JCC for years, but I've given up on anything being done about it. I've just accepted that different section mods have different leniencies, and the JCC mods just, for a lack of a better phrase, don't give a damn about anything that goes on there. It's the reason I've stopped posting in anything but a few of the spam threads.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
    G-FETT likes this.
  23. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Chosen One star 6

    Aug 14, 2000
    I...kinda thought “we assume everyone here likes SW” is more there as a counter to accusations that critics of this or that movie “hate SW”....
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  24. lovethedarkside

    lovethedarkside Jedi Knight star 2

    Oct 10, 2017
    Personally, I'm happy the mods have taken this step. Many of the threads had become bitter wars where people insisted on repeating their viewpoints, without letting others express a differing opinion. It was becoming quite toxic, especially when politics entered the fray.

    Reading this thread, a couple things stood out to me. The first was the argument against people needing to like Star Wars. I get that people don't have to love every aspect of SW -- and I really don't think it's possible to love it all, there's just so much diversity in content and mediums -- but I don't understand why someone who doesn't like any aspect of SW (or who hasn't even viewed/read SWs) would want to post on this site. Fans of any sport/movie/team are usually people who enjoy it and want to share that excitement with others. They aren't usually people who want to tear down the sport or team, so when someone says they hate SWs or haven't seen SWs, I have to wonder why they are here, unless they are here just to troll. (Or simply ask questions like "where do I start?," but I have yet to see that happen.)

    The second is when I read the first page of the thread posted above, It was started when it was first announced that Disney was buying Star Wars. Most of the people who posted on the first page were unhappy with that decision. This stood out to me because I remember that announcement as a time of great excitement on the NJOE board. Even though NJOE was focused on EU content which suddenly became non-canon, most people were still happy that SW was continuing and we'd get live action movies. (Although I'm sure most, including myself, didn't want the EU to be ignored/tossed aside.) So, the difference between the two boards -- which I had already experienced because I don't remember any inter-user bashing happening there -- just became a little clearer to me. Apparently, dissatisfaction with SW has been on this board for a long time. I'd love to see this board become a place to celebrate and share the excitement one can get from the franchise.
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Five Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Mar 4, 2011
    A rule to “celebrate and share excitement” is not going to happen. People have the right to express dissatisfaction, even repeatedly, as long as it is within the TOS and as long as what they are expressing is discussable as opposed to “Rian Johnson ruined my childhood.”

    Using the sports analogy, someone going onto a Charlotte Hornets board and saying that the Hornets did not have a great season and really need to improve, would be telling the truth; someone who said the Hornets were not fun to watch the past two seasons would be expressing an opinion, and that person would not be any less of a fan for expressing that opinion as opposed to “Kemba Walker is awesome.” Someone going onto a Hornets board and saying “The Hornets franchise is terrible and should have never come back to Charlotte! The Hornets have sucked since 1988! They are the worst team in the NBA!” would be more the sports equivalent of what I understand the New Films mods are trying to counteract. (As a side note, in the NBA thread here, Chorus once posted that Kemba Walker could not accurately throw a basketball into an ocean. As a Hornets fan, I was not offended, because during that particular game, Chorus was correct.)

    I’ve been around here for longer than my registration date would suggest and I’ve literally never seen anyone here say that they’ve never seen Star Wars. I think with Disney there are a few people who say they haven’t seen certain movies because they are coming out more frequently, but nobody has said they’ve “never seen Star Wars.”