Discussion in 'Communications' started by bluealien1, Apr 1, 2018.
Lit is still open too
There are plenty of things to discuss other than your complaints about a film, most complaints about TLJ have been repeated a 100 times. What good does it do bringing them back up again and again?
Move on, talk about the next film if you're unhappy with the present one...or are you advocating allowing things to spiral as they did before until the point where the threads are locked?
Love for TLJ gets repeated 100 times as well, and any discussion, positive or negative, about TLJ usually comes up when discussing IX, which is the next film.
Of course I am not advocating for threads to be locked. I am also not advocating the idea that the New Films mods should be locking threads that are not full-on praisefests within a certain amount of time after a film gets released.
There are ways for people to discuss what they like and dislike about a film or films. That involves, among other things, being OK with the fact that people have different taste in film than (general) you do and are free to express that different taste, and not going after posters who disagree with your taste in film. Personally I think the “gusher,” “basher” and “hater” labels need to go.
Some people may very well need to keep trying to work out their frustrations about a direction something they deeply invested in may be turning. And they have just as much right to do so here as someone who cannot seem to run out of new ways to express how brilliant they find the very same thing. The key difference is that a discussion-based community needs less "Have I mentioned how much I hate this to the core of my being and nothing anyone says will ever possibly change my mind? Don't worry, if you missed it, I'll repeat again 5,000 times" versus "I really hate this decision that was made and, unless someone can really make a compelling case for why it was done this way, I suppose I've said all there is to say".
Call TLJ a flaming turd. Half the staff of New Films will probably "Like" the post. Just make sure describing it as a flaming turd is presented in a manner that actually invites or continues discussion. We are a community attempting to interact with one another. Not a YouTube comments section where everyone just post-vomits positivity or negativity with no regard for actual conversation. Heaven forbid we post a strong stance on something while being open to receive an altered perspective.
In order to have civil and respectful conversations, labels are indeed the first thing that need to go.
Same. And many of Westbrook’s triple double hype comes from rebounding being added to his points & assists numbers. I don’t need my point guards to grab 10 (mostly defensive) rebounds most of the time. It’s not a great selling point if those rebounds are just coming at the expense of a big on the Thunder getting them anyway. Those “gimmie” defensive rebounds where the opposition is already getting back on defence after a missed shot can basically go to any one of 3 players on the team securing it. Most teams let their bigs grab those. OKC lets Westbrook hunt those down specifically because he’s such a monster in transition.
Lit has a rule - criticize the work but not the author personally. I think that could apply in New Films as well. By all means say that you thought Rian Johnson's handling of TLJ sucked and give your reasons why. However don't make it personal by saying he ruined your childhood. You can criticize the character Rose but don't make it personal on the actress unless it was her portrayal of the character you have an issue with. If a user posts something you disagree with, give your reasons for disagreeing but don't call the user something that will get you banned.
Forgive any ignorance I display here, but I read the warning a few times, and checked thru all 5 of these pages on this thread but couldn't find clarification: I understand WHY this was done, but how long will this be for? Just wondering. Early on in this thread 24 hours is mentioned somewhere, and I think I saw something like "for a while" or something to that effect. It's def not for 24 hours, cos it's now Wednesday afternoon (where I am) and replies on these threads have been locked for me since early Monday...
Just curious-any word on when we'll be able to regain access?
I'll let one of the New Film mods field that question.
I don't know anyone who thinks TLJ was a perfect masterpiece. I love the film and am aware of its flaws. I don't feel strongly enough about said flaws to add to the flaming pile of criticism that has already been heaped onto the movie.
I was about to say that, at least in regards to the Sequel Trilogy boards, it certainly seems like the demographics have tilted in favor of negative criticism of the ST, with negative criticism of TLJ in particular being strengthened by a larger amount of highly-active users.
Not to say that negative criticism of TLJ is a majority for *all* users; in fact, I'd argue the opposite is true there, since I think the demographics thread showed a comfortable majority of all posters to that thread *liked* TLJ, though perhaps not *loved*, which may well signal that most of our users in total here on these boards felt the same way. But in general, it seems that of the highly active posters, the ones who check in daily and make a handful of posts each time they do, the greater number are critical of TLJ and the ST. This may simply be a matter of de facto attrition to the side of TLJ and ST supporters caused by enjoyment and contentment with the films; fans pop in, talk about what they liked, bolster those arguments they approve of, and then... Move on. But for those of us critical of TLJ and the ST, the disappointment and irritation caused by TLJ motivates longer investment in trying to "prove" that point, even if it's patently impossible.
And so I wonder if this scenario may have interacted badly with the new Criticism thread. I'm a critic of TLJ; quite frankly, I enjoy attacking the film, probably too much, and need to restrain myself some more. But there's a part of me that feels that the board was healthier in that interim period between the closing of the Bashers thread and the opening of the new Criticism thread. I think because discussion was generally limited to specific charcater or scene threads in that time, topical focus was greater: a fan and a critic in the Finn thread could have wildly different opinions, but at least they were focused only on Finn. And if someone stepped out of bounds there, maybe it was easier for mods to enforce discipline on them because of the more dispersed number of posters? I mean, the Bashers thread was more wild than a normal thread would be, but at least there was a official policy of keeping everyone in their lanes, with a corresponding Gushers thread. The current Criticism thread may be simply so busy and so full of negative criticism now, that it's too easy for people to post like they're in a Bashers thread when they *emphatically* are not; so when someone like my esteemed colleague in essay writing @Ender_and_Bean starts trying to calmly discuss things, the numbers game simply is so out of whack that he's speaking to a hostile audience.
Maybe, as much as I and others like the Criticism thread, we should try and stick to the character and scene specific threads?
They will most likely be reopened later today. We just want everyone to have the opportunity to see the warning and understand what's expected of the userbase going forward.
Thankfully, I do feel like we are past that point as a community for the most part. There are new underhanded things at work that, well, we as a community need to work on better.
Those against the films have a monopoly on sarcasm related to the film and wield it often. It’s only logical. Dislike & sarcasm are easy bedfellows. It’s hard to be sarcastic in response without implying someone missed something. This tends to escalate. If we really stop and think about it though the situations do have some similarities.
In both situations the implication is a form of elitism, really. It’s just that one hides more easily that it’s only criticizing the film and not the others who don’t see it the same way, and the other more overtly, implies that those who hate it can’t appreciate it. The implications exist for both essentially. Both are saying on some level “You missed this” but the sarcastic poster ripping the movie with straw man memes meant to exaggerate common points of derision can more easily present that their issue is only about the movie and nothing more. I suspect this is one of the biggest reasons the internet is so critical in general in a likes/upvote culture. Humor drives likes more than sincere appreciation so within online culture we have created a reward system where the easiest paths to likes/upvotes are nurtured.
It’s a strange time for communication. Reddit comments, for example, are often more about who can come up with the funniest comment or play on words. It’s fun for a time but can get tiring as well.
I’m not sure how those in favor of the movies can participate more on the humor side of things without being sarcastic toward those who disagree with them directly but I’m confident that if there was a way to do so it would lead to less escalations during disagreements. I’ve taken to some self-deprecation, myself, because humor is fun. I also intend to ignore more snark in general. It’s almost always snark leading to counter-snark that then just keeps building and building before the colored font of a manager has to chime in to de-escalate.
@godisawesome , that’s an interesting point too. There’s certainly a bit of a gang culture that occurs around the threads that are more specific to liking or disliking. Probably without any of us realizing it.
As some of the fans of the movie have decided that defending it against attack here isn’t exactly the best use of their neurons or their finite time on this planet, and that most of humor associated with it is focused on not liking it, and moved on I have sometimes felt, unwisely, that it’s my personal responsibility to offset for their departures and to provide some counterbalance to the negativity. I think I’m done trying that now. Not worth it. There are better ways for me to share what I like and reach more people who may enjoy my efforts more. I just want good discussions now & then from people who love Star Wars.
The plan had been for a 24 hour lock but there has been so much (mostly) thoughtful discussion in response to this that we added a day. You've all interacted commendably in response to this. Carry that over to the New Films discussions.
You should be able to post by dinner.
Because we want you here with us and neglecting your families.
I would usually agree with you both, but unfortunately I don't honestly think the situation here these days is this simple. Let me add another way of looking at part of my point here if I could:
So, if we break the user group down into four categories, we have:
- Positive end of spectrum -
A) Gushers. Love the films and will not entertain any mentions of even the tiniest flaws. Not interested in constructive discussions with others. This is actually a very small group here.
B) Those who liked the movies, but who are open to constructive discussions. We have many users in this group.
C) Those who disliked the movies or significant parts of them, but who are open to constructive discussions. We have many users in this group. Note that users in groups B and C can get along despite their differences.
D) Bashers. Hate the films and will not entertain any mentions of even the tiniest good things. Not interested in constructive discussions with others. This is a pretty large group, and it's grown larger recently.
- Negative end of spectrum -
Now some people might post in more than one category depending on the topic, but generally the groups follow those lines. This is why I think the toxicity needs to be addressed where the point of balance is thrown off. Labels are unfortunate, but to act like everyone here is only ever in the B or C groups is not really accurate, IMO.
To clarify, labels need to be the first thing to go from conversation between users. They are, on the other hand, useful to simplify "backstage" discussion on how to handle a response.
Some people just aren't that concerned about listening to an alternative view, nor do they want to understand the reasoning behind that alternative view, to them anyone with a differing opinion is wrong. You're not going to change their opinion, and may be part of it is that you don't want your opinion changing either.
One thing is for certain though, things will never be the same around here from now on
Then they should get a blog and spare the rest of us.
So, basically, what you're saying is that we're as eloquent as Khun-Anup, and deserve to be punished accordingly. There, I've given everyone something to look up and broaden their horizons while the time out is still on.
Also, my family is neglecting me. I want to go to the movies with my wife and go see Incredibles 2, but she's too busy with grad school and, ugh, the World Cup. Until Portugal gets knocked out or wins, I'm like 4th on her list of priorities (and if they get knocked out, I'm still probably 3rd). You guys were all I had left.
May be that's because you've managed to ban all the troublemakers now.
I think more forums and places like Reddit should do what's been done here. People of all opinions should feel welcome, but not to the point where one side overpowers the other and decent conversations become a war because the overpowered side thinks they have the upper hand in numbers. I don't feel welcomed in a place where I have to like something or else, or I have to not like something or else. I am very open-minded and try to see both sides and wear the other person's shoes because to me, nothing is perfect and should only be viewed that way. It's not possible.
I've heard it said that TFA discussions got pretty hot, but not to the degree of TLJ - as that has led to this action, where it didn't in the case of TFA. So why is the TLJ fire burning hotter?
Factors I'd see at work are:
"I derive validation for my opinion by the number of people I get to agree with me" or "I rate my views by the number of enemies I destroy" (dub this one the Full Kylo if you like)
"Disney and LFL need no protecting they're a multi-billion company" vs "Disney and LFL is a cute kitten that you shouldn't be mean to"
"There is an objective right and wrong way to see this film - I know the right way, you're wrong"
Why do they act as oxygen or molotovs? Just about every net discussion I've seen go nuclear involves trying to force other people to change, often in the belief that it's a debate school with rules thus "I've proven you're wrong on A, B, C - you must submit". This is the dah Internet though, reply to that, when debate is not wanted, tends to be the intellectual response or variation of "^&%$ you / off". Emphasising that discussion is a no-stakes undertaking might be a solution. If people want debate threads, set them up with appropriate signposting - if you waltz into the Mos Eisley unarmed, you're either an idiot or Luke Skywalker, but Wuher should have put up a sign.
On point 2, I can't say I understand it as, if I'm really cheesed off with a company I hit them in the pocket, if I like their stuff I buy it and recommend to others. So the idea that I should be sending death threats to LFL doesn't make sense, neither does treating the same super-company as a cute, defenceless kitten that only a monster would attack. The negative effect is that of encouraging lazy stereotyping by either side along with the idea everything is permitted or justified by how the person sees Disney / LFL.
Last one: Trying to claim that everyone should perceive a story the exact same way as one person does, with all that it entails, when short of torrenting it illegally, most of us will have spent time and money seeing it is rarely ever going to end well. This sometimes seems to be linked to an inability to accept that there is a difference of opinion at all.
What's the solution? Save for the hallowed, golden rule of internet conduct "don't be a dick", I'm not sure there is an easy fix. If there was I'm fairly certain da Mod Squad would have found it by now and this action would have not been needed.
So... in light of the breaking news that the spin off movies apparently have all been put on indefinite hold...
Are you going to give it another 24 hours?
Yeah it seems spinoff movies are on hold and IX and onward are the current focus.