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PT I think The Phantom Menace is better than Attack Of The Clones

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by cxcfffxx, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 4, 2014
    You know what, you're right. Sorry about that. 100% right.
     
  2. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    She doesn't mind wearing some attractive dresses like this one in his presence. Not sure what was she thinking... the creeper is obviously unstable and can attack her any second.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Apparently there’s a difference between wearing nice clothes & allowing someone to leer at you in your bedroom[face_dunno]
     
  4. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    Yeah and having romantic dinners where they leer all they want ;)
     
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  5. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    You’re right, Padme is a different kind of weirdo. She’s uncomfortable with Anakin looking at her “like that”. She turns off the cameras to prevent his perving. Yet she wears her dominatrix outfit to dinner. They’re both nuts.
     
  6. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 17, 2015
    Now we’re making progress.
    I don’t think he’s psychotic, as I mentioned on another thread, and it’s a generally overused term. I do believe that he behaves in a way that I would classify as creepy or unsettling, and he does seem disturbed. As I said, I do see some red flags there. Basically, I think he has a borderline personality. His moods are clearly unstable, he clearly is very resentful towards Obi-Wan Kenobi and the Jedi Council, he doesn’t have a great deal of self-control, he has some clear rage issues, and he can get pretty violent when pushed far enough. I have a hard time imagining a scenario in which all those elements don’t eventually lead him to snap, short of him getting some very serious psychiatric treatment as soon as possible.
    That’s a fair enough claim to make, although I personally disagree with it. I think this is a much better portrayal of an awkward teen:



    I can see George McFly as “adorkable”, to use the words of another poster. Anakin Skywalker? Not so much.
    To an extent. I think Leia IS interested in him, even if she doesn’t want to admit it, hence why she follows him down the hallway. If I’m being entirely honest for a minute here, some of his behavior on the Falcon is…pretty bad. His behavior on Hoth is…actually pretty good. And it’s true that Han regularly insults and demeans her, but it’s not as if she doesn’t give as good as she gets. And he insults and mocks just about everybody, not just Leia. He refers to Obi-Wan as an “old fossil” nor does he seem to hold Luke Skywalker in the highest regard when they first meet. Even Chewbacca isn’t spared from his verbal jabs. “Get in there, you big furry oaf! I don’t care what you smell!” “Come here, you big coward! Chewie, come here!” “Laugh it up, fuzzball!” And that’s to say nothing of the way he treats C-3PO. “Not entirely stable? Well, I’m glad you’re here to tell me these things. Chewie, take the professor into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive!” “Shut him up or shut him down!” Personally, I have nothing against banter and actually really like it.
    I think Anakin basically would’ve stewed over it until he eventually snapped. Best case scenario, he does something like this and it ends there:



    However, he’d likely do something worse than that. I could very easily see him perversely trying to coerce some other poor woman into “becoming” Padmé, stripping that other woman of her identity and remaking her in Padmé’s image like this:





    The worst scenario is that it kickstarts a mental disintegration that ends in a bloodbath like this (CONTENT WARNING- extreme graphic violence; don’t watch if you’re squeamish):



    Like I said, I think Anakin is pretty unbalanced, disturbed and dangerous. A borderline personality, not psychotic or a psychopath.

    As for Han, the getting in her space is hard to defend. The belittling and wearing her down? They’re both equally guilty of that one.

    Frankly, I’m willing to give Han’s conduct a pass because of when the movie came out, because the characters are likable enough, and because the actors do have enough chemistry that it is pretty enjoyable to watch. By 2002, it wouldn’t have flown, I think. It also hurts that I don’t think that Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman have very good chemistry with each other and I’ve always found Anakin to be pretty unlikable.
    Yeah, I’m going with the guy who doesn’t murder children. Remember, Anakin murdered kids even BEFORE he turned. Han never did that.
    Well, Anakin comes across pretty dangerous to me as well.
    I disagree with this totally. I think he is very possessive of Padmé, and while I don’t think he views her as a trophy per se, the way that say, Gaston views Belle in Beauty and the Beast, I do think she’s basically the object of his idealized fantasy, and he’s more concerned with his image of her that he’s spent 10 years constructing and obsessing over than the real person. It’s sort of like how Jimmy Stewart views Kim Novak (the real one at the end of the movie) in Vertigo. Truthfully, I don't think ever cared about Padmé or her desires, only what she could do for him. And that’s why, despite everything, I do find Han to be a better, more compassionate romantic partner than Anakin…because Han ultimately does give a damn about what Leia wants, her needs and her feelings. I don’t think Anakin ever did that for Padmé.

    And I have no doubt that George Lucas was going for Rebel Without a Cause. The problem is that there were other specific things Lucas had to put in there to establish that there was already a part of him that WAS Darth Vader, waiting to emerge, and frankly, nuanced and complex characterization has never been Lucas’s forte. It worked fine on the first film, where he was dealing mostly with broad archetypes, and he outsourced some of the more complex and nuanced character bits in the other two to other writers and directors. He can do a broad outline of an arc just find, but when it comes to the specifics, such as scenes, dialogue, interactions, and dealing with actors, not so much. This isn’t to say that Lucas is a hack, just that he has always had his limitations as an artist.

    As I said, I compared Anakin Skywalker to Travis Bickle because I actually believe that both have borderline personality disorder, which presages and makes inevitable their ultimate descent into violence.
    You’re right. She was revealing clothing! She was asking for it! And as we all know, if a woman wears revealing clothing, that’s tantamount to consent. He can do whatever he likes with her because she’s wearing revealing clothing!

    removed - personal attack. /heels
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2018
  7. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    removed - personal attack. /heels

    I live in the USA no. Compared to my country of origin, women seem to care a lot less about dressing up and makeup and have more weight issues (I don't hold it against them, considering the health and food culture).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2018
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  8. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    That's because she's in charge, haven't you noticed? Most of the time Anakin has to go along with her schemes.
     
  9. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Force Ghost star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    Padme being uncomfortable with Anakin's look comes before they get to know one another as adults and in turn develop a bond partly based on mutual attraction. I don't see anything weird about that. That's like saying it's weird for Rey to eventually hug Finn when she was initially ticked off at him holding her hand.
     
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  10. Scott109

    Scott109 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Apr 22, 2016
    Reasons why Attack of the Clones is superior to The Phantom Menace

    - The Phantom Menace is missing a clear protagonist. Qui-Gon dies before the story ends. Obi-Wan sits on a ship for the entire second act. Anakin is only introduced thirty-five minutes into the film and experiences little character development.
    In Attack of the Clones, the protagonist is clearly Anakin Skywalker.
    - Attack of the Clones reveals greater plot twists, such as the discovery of a secret clone army for the Republic and the revelation the Supreme Chancellor is secretly manipulating both sides of a civil war in order to enhance his own power.
    - Other than the podrace and the lightsaber duels, none of the action sequences in The Phantom Menace are as visually spectacular as the chase through the Coruscant skyline, Obi-Wan's fight with Jango, the chase through the asteroid field, the Colosseum monster fight, and the Battle of Geonosis.
    - Anakin and Padmé's age difference is less apparent.
    - A civil war is more interesting than a trade dispute.
    - There are fewer uneventful hologram meetings.
    - There is more beautiful Naboo scenery.
     
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  11. bibfortuitous

    bibfortuitous Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 7, 2000
    She's doing Palpatine hands in that pic!
     
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  12. sheri1967

    sheri1967 Jedi Master star 1

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    Jun 5, 2006
    For me AOTC is better for one reason-less Jar Jar.
     
  13. Dagobahsystem

    Dagobahsystem Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 25, 2015
    Update to previous post:

    I still prefer AOTC, but I will give the edge to TPM on diversity of worlds/settings and overall aesthetics. Sheer number of amazing locales. It is an incredibly beautiful film and worth watching for the visuals and music alone. Plus it has one of, if not the best lightsaber duels in SW history.

    AOTC excells at uniqueness of worlds, like Kamino and the Kaminoans and the overall characterization of leads, as well as a better plot compared to TPM, imo. Much more suspenseful overall. Plus we get Count Dooku. And Zam Wesell is an awesome addition to the SW universe. How cool and creative is AOTC for including so many rad new planets, creatures and aliens.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
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  14. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    Both are my least favourote films of the entire series, its seems thats a common consensus, but they both have some great points and some really bad points.

    Positives for me with TPM were Maul (even though hes under used), Palpatine, Qui-Gonn, the score and the 3 way duel at the end. Jar Jar is a distraction as a character in what he says and does, as is the comedy ending battle on Naboo, which is a poor mans ROTJ templated ending, offset only by the great duel. Naboo end battle aside, visually theres a lot of this film that looks fantastic, even Jar Jar looks like hes there with the actors so it was a good job in that respect. I thought Jakes performance wasn't great and neither was the dilaogue or delivery from him, especially with Padme. I think having Anakin as a child in this film killed the pacing of the trilogy as a whole.

    AOTC has a better turn from Ewan he makes Obi Wan his own, the score again is good, some excellent action scenes, I liked the world building of it too, Jango was a nice addition even if its only fan service, Christopher Lee lends some gravitas and I liked the idea of a former Jedi turning to the dark side there. Again theres some awful delivery of dialogue that comes across as wooden, too many lumpen scenes of exposition again just people sitting around and telling, some very iffy visuals when compared to TPM and for a trilogy thats was supposedly about the rise and fall of Darth Vader it actually does little to concentrate on this until the third film, whereas I feel this should have been its focus on the 3 leads and their relationships and how Palpatine was manipulating this.

    There are lots of issues that affect my viewing of these 2, but if I had to pick one to watch I think it would be AOTC purely because of its pace and action over TPM, it rattles along nicely in the main.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  15. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Here is one thing I have to say to defend TPM over AOTC, it does have the better TITLE. I think "Attack of the Clones" must be the weakest title of any SW episode, also it doesn't reflect the movie very well. When someone "attacks" you think of some independent outside force starting a war or something, rather than an army that is led by the good guys, the Jedi no less. In no way are the clone troopers attacking on their own, just helping the Jedi. The movie may as well have been titled "Attack of the Jedi". That would have made as much or as little sense.
    Don't get me wrong, I like the movie, and to me it's in the upper tier of SW movies, along with ANH and ROTS. But I think I would like it more with a better title.
     
  16. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 7, 2014
    But it is the clones that attack the Separatists first. The Seps are clearly in retreat from the might of the new army. It's a subtle title, harking back to B-movie titles, and portraying the Republic in the role of the Empire on Hoth, setting up the downfall of the Republic.
     
  17. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Good call, but despite the intended imagery in the Republic taking Geonosis by force, I would agree the title sounds a little unnatural.
     
  18. Subtext Mining

    Subtext Mining Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 27, 2016
    Also look into the etymology. Attack shares it's original root with attach, and clone is derived from the Greek botanical word for stick/branch, and also from the old Italian word which also meant "to join in battle". So this plays nicely into the idea of the clone army being grafted into the rotting tree that is the Republic, as GL described it in the ANH novelization.

    And yes,
    That is another of the many reason I love this title (along with TPM). It flips all expectations on their heads, while we witness the Jedi starting a war, with the intention of stopping it - a war where the lines which distinguish who the good guys really are get blurred.
    One reveal that comes when watching the films in release order that gets overlooked sometimes is finding out that the stormtroopers we all knew from the OT were originally used by the Jedi & the Republic, all while sporting what we knew as the Empire logo.

    But speaking of which, I also find it interesting to watch RotJ now, and see that Han stepping on the stick is what led them to the Ewoks, the tree people, who joined them in battle.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2018
  19. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    No, actually the first act of aggression is by Dooku and the Geonosians. First they capture Obi-Wan, then Padmé and Anakin, then put them (official representatives of the Galactic Republic!) in an arena for public execution. After that Windu and the other Jedi arrive to save them. They fight the Separatists and lose. Only THEN does the clone army arrive, under the leadership of Yoda, another legitimate representative of the Republic. That the Separatists didn't attack the clone army first is simply because they didn't know it existed or where to find it. They attacked the Republic, represented by Jedi Knights, who in turn got help from the clones, which proved to be superior in battle to the Separatists. The clones were not the ones who initiated the battle. And I don't see Obi-Wan landing on Geonosis per se as an act of aggression, much less one punishable by death.
    @Subtext Mining
    You got some good points here! I never looked at it that way. I repeat, I like AOTC and to me it's superior to TPM and equal to ROTS.
     
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Obi-Wan wasn't acting in a very "Official Representative" fashion while on Geonosis - he was spying. And Padme and Anakin killed several Geonosians in the factory before being captured.

    That doesn't mean they deserved to die - but nor does it mean that the Geonosians killing them is "out of line with interstellar law".
     
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  21. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    So you might as well call his trip to Kamino "spying". His MISSION, as given him by the Jedi Council, was to find out who was behind the attempt on Padmé's life - the very first act of hostility by the Separatists in that movie. Then there was yet another attempt to kill her soon after that. So yes, he had to do some "spying" in order to fulfill his mission. At Kamino it was Jango who first fired at Obi-Wan, who was only defending himself. Then he tried to kill him again in the ring around Geonosis. I think in that situation a small amount of "spying" when his and a senator's life was in danger is more than legitimate.
    Anakin and Padmé only went to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan in the first place. Had he not been taken prisoner they wouldn't even have gone there. No way did Anakin make the first move against the Geonosians! THEY attacked him and Padmé as soon as they left their ship. Just because the Geonosians didn't use blasters doesn't make them innocent. They clearly were the aggressors here. They attacked the Jedi and the senator, and Anakin had no choice but to draw his lightsaber to defend themselves.
    What exactly does "interstellar law" have to say about public execution of a Galactic senator and two Jedi by monsters without a trial, ancient Rome-style? Sources?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  22. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    No idea. But execution in general isn't exactly forbidden - the Republic was going to execute Ahsoka if she'd been convicted of treason.
     
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  23. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    Well, the Republic is the Republic, the officially recognized Galactic government. The Separatists are not generally recognized as any kind of government. You might as well put Jabba randomly killing his slave dancers on the same level as what an official court on Coruscant does. He is an outlaw gangster on a remote planet. So are the Geonosians for all that I care. You don't solve disagreements in a democratic way by assassinating Republic senators. That's not how the SW galaxy works. It was gradually being corrupted by the ways of the Sith, who managed to undermine democratic values step by step.
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    We're told in the opening crawl that several thousand systems have declared they're leaving the Republic. It's reasonable to conjecture that at this point, "Separatist worlds" are de facto a new galactic state, even if the Republic is unwilling to recognize that state's existence.
     
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  25. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    OK, so leaving the Republic per se can be seen as legitimate, but the Separatists' actions certainly can not. They could have sought a political solution, even written a "declaration of independence" of some sort. However assassinating senators and "kidnapping" chancellors (though staged) is NOT the proper way to be recognized as a new independent entity in a democratic society. The Republic - before it was overtaken by the Sith - worked through democratic processes, not violence.
    But there is no point in discussing this when we all know that a Sith was behind the so-called "separatist" movement anyway and only used it to become dictator. Once the CIS had served its purpose it was discarded and destroyed by Palpatine via his new apprentice. It was a TOOL, nothing else, useful at one point, but redundant later. In the end all those so-called separatists were merely fooled by Palpatine's plans. The wish to leave the Republic was planted by Palpatine in the first place. He had a way of talking them into feeling dissatisfied with the system. Nobody would have acted without Palpatine's persuasions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018