ST Ian McDiarmid (Plapy) in Episode IX

I'm asking if TROS is retconning that it was. Do we have much confirmation of this?

You talked about his plan to have Vader betray him.
I'm wondering how much we have that confirmed.

 

So his characterization is being discarded in service of establishing a contrived emotional conflict for our favorite bromidic protagonist. Splendid. I'm elated to see that Palpatine's corpse was unearthed just so Abrams could violate it and toss it away.

Of course it's a retcon, that's all Abrams knows how to do. The retcon is the stock-in-trade of hack writers everywhere.

 

What if Darth Sidous's ability to cheat death in some way involves time. Not time travel but something through the Force that is outside of linear time. It's what Jedi tap into to see the future and past. It's like a different plane of existence in the Force where time exists as a constant all at once. From this perspective time is circular, happening at once and all connected. This connection between all of time means the past creates the future and the future works backwards to create the past. It's all one. And from there a Force user can glimpse how reality is shaped and the different paths which could become reality and how many events work together in shaping the final outcome.

This is a spiritual plane of existence. Jedi meditate and use the force to access it. Somehow Palpatine found a way to enter physically. Perhaps he died and his master brought him back from the dead which gave him this insight. It's the opposite of a Force Ghost. And Palpatine is still mortal.

However with this ability Palpatine can't be killed in the physical world alone. He's got to be destroyed in both the living world and this cosmic Force plane of existence. The Force Projections in The Last Jedi are part of this, the space iceberg in the newest trailer, rebels riding horses on the outside of Star Destroyers, what looks like atmosphere in space is all part of this - the rebels either go into this Force realm or there is a rift where both plains of existence temporarily are one in an area.

That's where Palaptine has been hiding out since Return of the Jedi. In the 'real' world that is 30+ years, in this other plane it could be any amount of time. Seconds or centuries. Palpatine was either waiting to return until his armies are built up, or he's trapped there until left out. While he physically can't return, he can still interfere with the living world using the Force and manipulation.

Rey has the dangerous task of gaining access to destroy him. Dangerous for what awaits her there and for what will be released if she should fail. The quest in the film is opening this or luring Palpatine back.

Because this is a step out of time and reality, while Darth Vader and Luke duel on the Death Star 2, Rey & Ben Solo are facing off against the Emperor. In a way Palpatine is killed twice, but it's also only once.

At the same time Palpatine is thrown by Darth Vader, he's also being destroyed in the Force realm. Luke and Anakin can be at both places, in fact they may need to be in both places. The Force ghosts are the key to this.

So the events of Return of the Jedi still count but they are half the victory.

 

Yes, but the question was: Does TROS retcon Palpatine's ROTJ plan into a ruse or is the retcon merely that he survived and then devised a new plan?

 

Very, very freakin' easy to throw the "retcon" word around when we don't know what was rattling around in George's head post-prequels.

Was Palpatine intended dead in '83? I'd be on board with that, 100%. That's just pretty damn different to what George's intentions may have been in 2005 and after, of which we have zero to go on. For all you know the "retcon" wasn't Abrams, but George.

 

Thankyou.

Exactly what I was asking

Im relatively open minded to retcons that reshape the narrative retroactively, it is one of my favourite things about the PT personally.

But changing the story so Palpatine planned to be betrayed by Vader is a little silly.
Either way, I guess we have to wait and see how immersive the execution of Palpatine's return storyline is before we judge.
It has to feel justified for the story.

 

Interesting.

I think that is more epic than what they will go for but ya never know.

 

That's what i suspect too. Have a hunch as i said before that one of the reasons for George including the Plagueis scene into ROTS was to foreshadow Palps return in a possible ST.

If i remember this right, this scene was a relatively late addition and not included in the treatment for Episode III.

 

Palpatine's return is different from that of other characters from the original trilogy because fans never had a sense that he continued in some form after Return of the Jedi. Yes, he was resurrected in the comics, but that was only a few years later and he was generally the same character, only more cosmically powered. With his return in Rise of Skywalker, we now have the mystery of how his character has aged and evolved over the course of more than three decades.

Personally, I'm hoping Palpatine will bring to life the full glory and terror of the ancient Sith Lords. The new canon has done a good job of building up the ancient Sith and their highly destructive wars with the Jedi and among themselves. While that sort of story always work best when explored indirectly, I think Rise could do that by showing us Palpatine reach that level of power and boldness. And that seems to be what's happening. We have fanatical Sith troopers, a Sith fleet equipped with superweapons, and an insanely evil-looking throne for the returning Sith Master. I hope that is what his return promises, not a new Empire like the one we knew, but a new Sith Empire like the ones that terrorized the galaxy in the past.

 

Though it's possible, would any Sith care about the spirituality?



''For the Sith there is no transcending quality to their existence. There is nothing beyond what they have.''

 

There's no need for quotation marks. Palpatine surviving ROTJ is a retcon.
No one is saying that retcons are inherently bad, though, as far as I can see.

 

It's a means to greater power. That's what the Sith are after. For Darth Sidious it's not a way to transcend existence but to prolong life indefinitely. He is cheating death. And he shouldn't be able to do this, it's a spiritual plane of existence that he psychically enters.

Spiritually a Jedi taps into this, they don't actually go there bodily. But Palpatine steps right in.

This would be the exact opposite of a Force Ghost. A Force Ghost transcends life. They're eternal but also not alive anymore as physical beings. Palpatine is very much alive, flesh and blood. Where Jedi pass into Force Ghosts peacefully taking on a new form, Palpatine broke in. He used his power to bend the laws of nature. And Palpatine does not transcend how time works which creates other problems with balance in the Force. Force ghosts become one with the Force. Palpatine is not one with the Force, he's an intruder there.

So the way it's unusual for a Force Ghost to return from the great beyond to visit the living world, it's just as unusual for a living person to enter the great beyond. In this Force world Palpatine has different powers than the Force Ghosts.

From the Clone Wars there is probably some connection between this and Mortis and the Wellspring Planet with the Force Priestesses. You won't need to see those to understand the movie, but watching those episodes again after the movie will all make more sense.

 

I don't consider his resurrection to be a retcon per se. If he died over Endor only to return to the living post ROTJ, then the fact remains that he did, in fact, perish aboard the Death Star. His return would be a development that happens after the fact. Abrams' reinterpretation of Palpatine's motives, and the establishment of his "family", is a retcon, and an egregious one at that. It shows an inflexibility on his part when it comes to working within established parameters; he has to have it his way, and he's going to do whatever he wants with the characters—established personality traits be damned—in order to tell the story he wants to tell. Never mind that Palpatine was only ever shown as a selfish, narcissistic megalomaniac; never mind what Lucas had to say about him; never mind what Disney's own canon has to say about him—Palpatine has to want to hand the reins over to Rey because, uh, Rey needs more internal conflict, or something. Palpatine didn't anoint Vader and tell him to take his place as master; Vader wasn't trained as a Sith yet, so even if Palpatine wanted a legacy beyond ruling for eternity, there's no way he would let Anakin kill him right then and there. In fact, when Vader tried to kill Palpatine immediately following the big "NO" from ROTS, Palpatine threatens Vader, warns him never to lash out again, and proceeds to torture him with Force lightning. The "Son of Dathomire" arc from TCW (a story developed with Lucas' involvement) reaffirmed that Sidious is inherently treacherous, manipulating pawns and discarding them when they no longer appear useful. In that very same arc, he proclaims his grandiose and narcissistic designs. But no, all of a sudden Palpatine is willing to let Rey kill him, despite not knowing if she'll even properly turn to the dark side and "continue his legacy?" All of this based on what was obviously a ruse in ROTJ...

Keep in mind I'm basing this on what Paxis has said.

 

Yeah. That particular scenario seems very unlikely.

 

Totally agree. The only odd bit is in Revenge of the Sith when Palpatine tells Yoda - "You will not stop me; Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

He almost seems proud in that moment. I still took that more as Palpatine seeing Anakin as the real thing. Of all the apprentices Vader was the only one Darth Sidous though could maybe someday replace him. Still Palpatine wasn't giving it away. He'd do everything in his power to kill Vader if he thought he was becoming powerful enough to over throw him.

I can see nothing in Palpatine's established character where he'd give Rey command. Their would have to be something in it for Palpatine.

 

That could have been a threat of sorts for Yoda. I don't get the impression that Palpatine was 100% confident in his ability to prevail in a fight with Yoda, even though he ended up winning regardless. He did attempt to flee after all.

 

I agree. It's a pretty mysterious line, because it sounds, on the surface, like an unselfish statement. But I think the true core of it is "You will not stop me." That Vader is more powerful is only a sign of Sidious's own mastery over the course of events. Vader is his weapon. And even if Yoda were to somehow show himself more powerful than Sidious, say by besting him in battle or merely by surviving it, he could never overcome Sidious's plans because of his most powerful weapon: his new apprentice. Vader is only a tool for Sidious, as are all beings in the galaxy.

I'm not paying too much attention to leaks, but if Sidious wants Rey to somehow reign in his stead, it must be because it ultimately benefits him in some way. Her power as a tool of the dark side was realized only too late by Snoke, per the novelization of TLJ. But Snoke was not wise enough to look beyond the acquisition of power. Sidious knows all too well that acquiring power is not enough; you will only live in fear of losing it. He is comfortable with having someone else who is ostensibly more powerful than him around. But his true power is in his longer-term vision, in his wisdom to secure his survival and supremacy through all (or most) things the universe and the Force might throw at him. Vader says as much in the novelization of ROTJ, that true mastery of the Force is about vision, which is part of why Sidious is so nervous in ROTJ. Because Vader knows things that he does not, such as that Luke is in the Forest Moon. Sidious senses the unexpected, which to him must be appalling.

So in this case, I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the likes of Vader or Rey partially as lightning rods that draw the attention of more unexpected threats so that he may deal with them more safely.

 

The Aftermath Novel already undid the Palpatine overconfidence concept in my opinion. It tells us that after Vader came and reported to Palps that Luke was on the rebel shuttle landing on Endor, then Palps called Rax into that same throneroom and told him that a shatterpoint was approaching. It says Palps knew that the rebel shuttle had arrived but he had not actually sensed that Luke was on it. This put Palps on high enough alert to send Rax and Palps' personal SSD from Endor to a spot in the UR- to stand by for instructions from one of his sentinel droids. Palps had foreseen Vader bringing Luke before him but he didn't know Luke was going to be close by for this DSII trap he had set. When he found out Luke was there, then he realized that this would be when they would all have their confrontation. The novel explains that Palps could not foresee the actual outcome of the confrontation- so he knew there was a chance that Luke wouldn't turn, or that Vader could turn on him, but Palps still expected to emerge victorious no matter how it played out. This tells me that he already had an exit strategy in place before he used himself as bait for his rebel trap.

 

But a lot of that sounds like what we got in Return of the Jedi anyway.

Except sending Rax and Palpatine's personal ship to the Unknown regions of course.

In the movie as is Palpatine knows of the small Rebel force on Endor and yet doesn't sense Luke with them.
And improvising when Luke is indeed discovered close enough so they can have their confrontation is kind of implied by ROTJ as well.
He still expects to win in both this novel explanation and the original movie.

The apparent exit strategy however does retcon things heavily I suppose.
It is a different kind of overconfidence.
I think I need more context tbh.

 

I don't expect it to be explained how Palpatine survived, so in my headcanon.....

Due to TLJ introducing that Luke had Learned to force Project a force vision of himself across the galaxy, even though he knew it would cost his life.

Palpatine had already learned a version of this but the next step, how to physically project his body to another location, albeit a husk of himself with all his force drained.

The explosion you see when palpatine is dropped by Vadar is him executing this.

Palpatine had already prepared the location in the upcoming film as a last resort (back up) before star wars OT, he knew using this method would drain him of all his powers (Thus the force drain needed from Kylo/Rey and to recover would take a long time. He had loyal people stationed there who knew what to do should he appear at that location.

Remember the old trailer line from Snoke (was in film as well i think) "There has been an awakening?" That was actually the emperor waking up as he sensed rey/kylo had enough Force power for him to recover/use. Obviously not intended that way but now makes kinda sense for me in my version.

 

Did Yoda somehow prevent Palps from sensing Luke? Is there some behind the scenes Force Ghost work at play?

 

Some early drafts for ROTJ did have the Jedi who had gone to the Force do some shenanigans to help Luke in his confrontation with the Emperor. But I think the answer in the final version is simply that Vader could sense Luke because of their familial connection. Palpatine grew afraid at being unable to sense Luke. So you could argue that the Force intentionally kept him from sensing Luke, and in that sense, because the Jedi were now part of the Force, then they too had a hand in that.

 

I’m hoping we get a parallel of Palpatine sensing Ben arriving, just as Anakin interrupted the duel he had with Mace Windu.

 

Probably only asked that because he was SO MUCH Force sensitive, obviously the most Force sensitive child Qui-Gon had ever seen or even heard about based on the midichlorian count.

Still points to no cases in which a non-skywalker has Force sensitive children. Qui-Gon's question reveals his curiosity and wonderment at Anakin's Force ability, not at some institutional or systemic pattern of children who are ordinary Force sensitives having Force sensitive parents.

The whole system of ID'ing FS kids when they are infants and toddlers points to the fact that, by and large, Force Sensitive children are not born to Force Sensitive parents. Qui-Gon is also talking to a single mother who he knows he may be taking her son from her, so asking about the other parent is a no-brainer. He's trying to assess the situation 360-degrees. It could also have also just been tossed-off dialog from Lucas to get Shmi to reveal "there was no father." That's the point of that scene. Not Jedi genetics.

Midichlorians aren't like DNA. They are a whole separate set of entities, if we want to get biological with this discussion.

Luke and Leia and Ben are Force sensitive not because of their genetics, but because the Force chose the Skywalker family following Anakin to be Force sensitive, at least that's how I've always read this saga, as one more of destiny than DNA. I guess, ultimately, it doesn't matter or is up to interpretation. Whatever makes the audience enjoy it more, they can choose that interpretation.

 

I always attributed Vader sensing Luke on Endor and the Emporer not sensing him to the fact that Vader already had a confrontation with Luke in person- and Palps had not. Vader and Luke already experienced a lightsaber duel together on Bespin- after which Vader was able to speak directly into Luke's mind from afar. The family aspect might come into play a bit, but Vader hadn't been able to sense either Luke or Leia on the DSI in ANH.