PT If Maul wasn't stronger than Dooku, why Sidious didn't use Dooku earlier?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Erkan12, Nov 23, 2021.

  1. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    Actually this recent info about Sidious using Jedi masters as his apprentices even before Episode 1 made me think that it means Sidious could also use Dooku as his apprentice before Episode 1 not only Sifo-Dyas;

    Lucas: "Nobody knows who ordered the clones. It's played as if it were somebody from the Jedi Council who foresaw there was going to be a war, so he was preparing for it, but it turns out that was somebody working for Palpatine, Sifo-Dyas. He was the apprentice before Darth Maul."

    Then you might ask, why is this related to ''power''?

    Because that's how the Sith operates, Sidious used Dooku as a placeholder until Anakin grows strong enough to kill him in the Clone Wars, if he couldn't kill Dooku, he could never become the Sith apprentice;

    In the Episode III Novel;
    "May I suggest, Master, that we give Kenobi one last chance? The support of a Jedi of his integrity would be invaluable in establishing the political legitimacy of our Empire."

    "Ah, yes. Kenobi." His Master's voice went silken. "You have long been interested in Kenobi, haven't you?"

    "Of course. His Master was my Padawan; in a sense, he's practically my grandson-"

    "He is too old. Too indoctrinated. Irretrievably poisoned by Jedi fables. We established that on Geonosis, did we not? In his mind, he serves the Force itself; reality is nothing in the face of such conviction."

    Dooku sighed. He should, he supposed, have no difficulty with this, having ordered the Jedi Master's death once already. "True enough, I suppose; how fortunate we are that I never labored under any such illusions."

    "Kenobi must die. Today. At your hand. His death may be the code key of the final lock that will seal Skywalker to us forever."

    Dooku understood: not only would the death of his mentor tip Skywalker's already unstable emotional balance down the darkest of slopes, but it would also remove the greatest obstacle to Skywalker's successful conversion. As long as Kenobi was alive, Skywalker would never be securely in the camp of the Sith; Kenobi's unshakable faith in the values of the Jedi would keep the Jedi blindfold on Skywalker's eyes and the Jedi shackles on the young man's true power.

    Still, though, Dooku had some reservations. This had all come about too quickly; had Sidious thought through all the implications of this operation? "But I must ask, my Master: is Skywalker truly the man we want?"

    "He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself."

    "Which is precisely," Dooku said meditatively, "why it might be best if I were to kill him, instead."

    "Are you so certain that you can?"

    "Please. Of what use is power unstructured by discipline? The boy is as much a danger to himself as he is to his enemies. And that mechanical arm-" Dooku's lip curled with cultivated distaste. "Revolting."

    "Then perhaps you should have spared his real arm."

    "Hmp. A gentleman would have learned to fight one-handed." Dooku flicked a dismissive wave. "He's no longer even entirely human. With Grievous, the use of these bio-droid devices is almost forgivable; he was such a disgusting creature already that his mechanical parts are clearly an improvement. But a blend of droid and human? Appalling. The depths of bad taste. How are we to justify associating with him?"

    "How fortunate I am"-the silk in his Master's voice softened further-"to have an apprentice who feels it is appropriate to lecture me."

    Dooku lifted an eyebrow. "I have overstepped, my Master," he said with his customary grace. "I am only observing, not arguing. Not at all."

    "Skywalker's arm makes him, for our purposes, even better. It is the permanent symbol of the sacrifices he has made in the name of peace and justice. It is a badge of heroism that he must publicly wear for the rest of his life; no one can ever look at him and doubt his honor, his courage, his integrity. He is perfect, just as he is. Perfect. The only question that remains is whether he is capable of transcending the artificial limitations of his Jedi indoctrination. And that, my lord Count, is precisely what today's operation is designed to discover."

    Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself. It was said that whenever the Force closes a hatch, it opens a viewport . . . and every viewport that had so much as cracked in this past thirteen standard years had found a Dark Lord of the Sith already at the rim, peering in, calculating how best to slip through.

    Improving upon his Master's plan was near to impossible; his own idea, of substituting Kenobi for Skywalker, he had to admit was only the product of a certain misplaced sentimentality. Skywalker was almost certainly the man for the job.

    He should be; Darth Sidious had spent a considerable number of years making him so.

    Today's test would remove the almost.

    He had no doubt that Skywalker would fall. Dooku understood that this was more than a test for Skywalker; though Sidious had never said so directly, Dooku was certain that he himself was being tested as well. Success today would show his Master that he was worthy of the mantle of Mastery himself: by the end of the coming battle, he would have initiated Skywalker into the manifold glories of the dark side, just as Sidious had initiated him.''

    And Lucas also said that directly;
    Lucas: "Palpatine has told Dooku, 'I have somebody who I think will become a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to set up a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

    And Episode 3 Novel states that Dooku's purpose was to be killed by Anakin;
    In Skywalker's eyes he sees only flames.

    "Chancellor, please!" he gasps, desperate and helpless, his aristocratic demeanor invisible, his courage only a bitter memory. He is reduced to begging for his life, as so many of his victims have. "Please, you promised me immunity! We had a deal! Help me!"

    And his begging gains him a share of mercy equal to that |which he has dispensed.

    "A deal only if you released me," Palpatine replies, cold as intergalactic space. "Not if you used me as bait to kill my friends."

    And he knows, then, that all has indeed been going according to plan. Sidious's plan, not his own. This had been a Jedi trap | indeed, but Jedi were not the quarry.

    They were the bait.

    "Anakin," Palpatine says quietly. "Finish him."

    Years of Jedi training make Anakin hesitate; he looks down upon Dooku and sees not a Lord of the Sith but a beaten, broken, cringing old man.

    "I shouldn't-"

    But when Palpatine barks, "Do it! Now!" Anakin realizes that this isn't actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing more than what he's been waiting for his whole life.


    And Dooku-As he looks up into the eyes of Anakin Skywalker for the final time, Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.

    His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this.

    He has existed only for this.


    To be the victim of Anakin Skywalker's first cold-blooded murder.

    First but not, he knows, the last

    Sidious also later says that Dooku was a proton torpedo and Maul was a loss.

    Sidious : ''Darth Maul was a loss, but Darth Tyranus... He was a proton torpedo. He served his purpose and was gone...''
    Source: Darth Vader #20 (2016)

    So even in the Sith, he doesn't choose his apprentices based on their potential, they need to prove it, if Maul had superior potential in Episode I, then that's cool, but that doesn't mean he should be a Sith apprentice over Dooku or others like Sifo-Dyas in Episode I, he should've proved that he is better than Sifo-Dyas or Dooku, or other candidates, so this makes me think that Maul at the time must be stronger than Dooku, based on him being chosen by Sidious.
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  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    No, potential is not irrelevant. It's why Sidious wasted his time grooming Anakin for so many years. Maul was a long term project for Sidious. He had potential, that's why he trained him ever since he was a kid. Sidious turned Dooku into a Sith Lord because he found himself without an apprentice in such a crucial time of his master plan, and he couldn't afford to start from scratch. That doesn't mean Dooku is not powerful or a worthy Sith Lord, but it was clear from the start that his stay was going to be temporary by virtue of his age and potential.

    "Dooku is kind of the fallen Jedi who was converted to the dark side because the other Sith Lord didn’t have time to start from scratch." - George Lucas

    "After Darth Sidious' first apprentice is killed, he has to come up with a new apprentice, and rather than coming up with some baby that he trains from birth, which is what he should have done -- well, he shouldn't have gotten himself in a position of getting his apprentice killed anyways -- he's decided to make his move, so he needs somebody that was already trained. The point is to set up that he turned this one Jedi, so that he could turn another Jedi. It has to be set up that way." - George Lucas
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  3. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Mar 9, 2001
    You assume that Dooku was even a possibility at that moment. Just because he was Sidious' apprentice 10 years after TPM, doesn't mean that he could have been succceptible to it 10 or more years earlier.

    It seems far more likely that Maul was his proper apprentice. And then he died. Palpatine knew about Anakin and could feel his potential, but neither was Anakin ready at that point, nor was Palpatine in a position to make a move. So he played the long game, opting for a cunning and powerful apprentice, who was ultimately deposable. A placeholder for the one who should become his true apprentice.

    Your conclusion doesn't work, because it develops out of the faulty premise that there was a choice between Maul and Dooku prior to TPM. The stories don't really support that. The fact that Dooku eventually became a Sith, doesn't tell us anything about whether he could have become one earlier. And if you follow your "Maul must have been stronger than Dooku" logic, you automatically end up with "Anakin must have been stronger than Maul and Dooku even when he was still a child, as Palpatine clearly saw him as the ultimate apprentice". Clearly that wasn't the case, or Dooku wouldn't have manhandled him during AOTC.
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  4. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    Dooku didn't need to become a Sith Lord in order to do what Sidious needed to be done. Sidious simply took advantage of the fallen Jedi that he had already working for him and offered him more power, power that Dooku craved.
  5. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    I didn't mean to say potential is irrelevant, I meant to say that potential would make him a big favorite and candidate for that position, which is why Sidious waited Anakin to defeat Dooku, so Anakin proves his potential, and shows that he can use that potential, and only then he agreed to change Dooku with Anakin, he could've get Dooku killed in many different ways without making him fight with Anakin, and then Sidious would say ''ok I will take Anakin as an apprentice now, his potential is too high anyway'', he tested Anakin and Dooku directly with each other.

    Maul's potential would make him a big candidate for sure, but by using Anakin's example, he must have proved it so Sidious actually made him an officially a Sith Lord just like he made Anakin, over other candidates like Sifo-Dyas and Dooku, experienced Jedi masters.

    Wasn't Sifo-Dyas and Dooku were working together 10 years before Episode 2?

    I believe it was mentioned that Sidious was using both Sifo-Dyas and Dooku at the time of Episode I, then Lucas even said Sifo-Dyas was the Sith apprentice before Maul. Which made me believe that Sidious could also choose other Jedi masters, such as Dooku, as he chose Sifo-Dyas.

    Palpatine see Anakin as a candidate in Episode 1, it's true. But he was a candidate, Anakin needed to prove that he is stronger than Dooku in a duel, only then Palpatine decided to take Anakin as his apprentice. Palpatine easily could get Dooku killed in many different ways, he could even kill Dooku by himself, he didn't need to make Anakin and Dooku fight, then he would try to take Anakin as he did. The point I tried to make was Palpatine made Anakin to kill Dooku directly, he also tried to do the same with Luke and Vader later, if Luke failed to defeat Vader, it would've been the same, despite his potential, he wouldn't be the apprentice.
  6. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    Of couse he would need to prove himself. He already had Dooku as a Sith Lord and Anakin hadn't fallen yet. Despite his influence, he didn't raise nor train Anakin. Testing him was the only way he could know for sure.

    If he could, I'm sure Palpatine would have preferred to take and convert Anakin the moment he met him, but for many reasons he couldn't. With Maul, he did. He trained him from childhood for one purpose and when the time came, he made him a Sith Lord. But until he was ready, he resorted to a fallen Jedi to take the apprentice position. Just like he would do later with Dooku. But they were always temporary, unless they somehow proved themselves by surpassing Sidious' expectations, which would be a win either way for Sidious.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  7. Dr Silva

    Dr Silva Jedi Knight star 3

    Aug 23, 2021
    Dooku and Snoke were similar , both served a purpose to Sidious., Snoke shouldve been one of the lost 20 jedis from AOTC and friends with Dooku that wouldve tied it all up even better .
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
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  8. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    I agree he would want to train Anakin from beginning, but even if we assume that he had time to train Anakin at Episode 1, he would still need another apprentice until Anakin becomes ready between Episode 1 to Episode 2, so it wouldn't matter anyway.

    So Dooku would still be the apprentice until Episode 2, while Anakin was being trained by Sidious during that time, or Dooku was training Anakin at the same time.
    The latter wouldn't be suitable since Dooku and Anakin would've a strong bond as a master and apprentice, they would try to kill Sidious together instead of Anakin killing Dooku for Sidious.

    Either way even if Sidious had time at Episode 1 to train Anakin for at least 10 years, he still needed an apprentice until Anakin gets ready.

    Which is why Lucas telling us that Sifo-Dyas was the first apprentice of Sidious before Maul made me think that. How old Sidious was in Episode 1? 52 years old?

    Then Sidious started to train Maul when Sidious was 37 years old, considering Maul was 22 years old in Episode 1, if we assume that Maul was 5 years old when Sidious started to his training.

    Sifo-Dyas according to the recent sources, was 70 years old at Episode 1 when he died, same age as Dooku. They are at the same age.

    At what age Sidious become the Sith master? According to Legends sources, at Episode 1 32 BBY when Plagueis died. When Sidious was 52 years old. But in Canon that's probably going to change, it could be much earlier considering Plagueis probably died earlier.

    When did Sifo-Dyas joined Sidious as an apprentice? Obviously since he was the apprentice before Maul, it must be at least a couple of years before Episode 1 so it would make sense why Sidious needed another apprentice other than young Maul. Then why Sidious decided to change Sifo-Dyas with Maul? What happened? Did Maul prove something or did Sifo-Dyas failed at something and needed to replaced?

    Or why Sidious didn't choose Dooku if Sifo-Dyas needed to die, and let Maul gain more experience and then let Maul surpass Dooku, if Maul didn't surpass Dooku already at Episode 1? What was the hurry?

    I think we need to learn a lot things about the events that take place before Episode 1.
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
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  9. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    Sifo-Dyas had served his purpose and Sidious wanted him eliminated, so he got rid of him. Maul was deemed ready to become a Sith Lord so he was made one.

    Why would he choose Dooku when he had Maul ready to become a Sith Lord? Dooku was only considered after Sidious suddenly lost Maul.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 2, 2012
    The problem is, that Sifo-Dyas was apparently eliminated by Dooku. One would think that, just as with Anakin eliminating Doou later, a "major test" for aspiring Sith Apprentices, would be to eliminate the previous Sith Apprentice.

    But instead, in the Lucasverse, Maul replaces Sifo-Dyas without Sifo-Dyas dying at Maul's hands. They possibly exist at the same time - the promoted Maul and the demoted Sifo-Dyas, with a demoted Sifo-Dyas ordering the clone army, before Dooku kills Sifo Dyas, Maul "dies" at the hands of Obi-Wan, and Dooku is promoted to replace Maul.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 24, 2005
    Wait, I’m confused — I thought Sifo-Dyas was just a pawn in the whole scheme. He was never a Sith.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 2, 2012
    In Legends, yes, a pawn. In newcanon, currently, apparently, yes, a pawn.

    In "Lucasverse", apparently he was a full Sith Lord - based on a Lucas comment, in a book, that went overlooked till very recently.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  13. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    For sure, but I would be curious to know why he served his purpose, it's not like Sifo-Dyas is going to say; ''You can take my Sith apprentice position, it's ok'', if he is a Sith lord, he should be an ambitious guy, who wants to usurp the power of the Sith, he shouldn't have give up easily. And from Sidious's point of view, what was the difference between Maul and Sifo-Dyas at that time of period? Why he needed to be changed with Maul exactly at that time?

    Lucas's verse and his plans for this Pre-Episode 1 era is obviously different than the Disney, who probably won't touch that timeline for years at least, could last even more than 10 years.

    From Lucas's point of view, did Maul defeat Sifo-dyas, and still let him live for some reason (just like Sidious let Maul live after defeating him on planet mandalore) since Sifo-dyas got killed during Episode 1, before or after Episode 1 is also unknown. They say ''almost'' 10 years before AotC Episode 2, Kenobi says he was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was killed even before that 10 years, so it's possible it happened shortly before Episode 1, then Maul could've involved in this heavily, not only Dooku. But current canon has nothing about this.

    It could've been an interesting story.
    Because Maul was younger and he could get more powerful via more training? For sure Sidious completed his training, but I am sure there could be more advance trainings that he could teach him, the kind of trainings he learned from Plagueis.

    For the same reason why Sidious used Sifo-Dyas as an apprentice instead of young Maul. Probably Maul wasn't ready so he used Sifo-Dyas at the same time while training Maul as a Sith from childhood.

    He could keep training and keeping young Maul as a back up, and could use another old Jedi as his apprentice (Sifo-Dyas or Dooku), either way Maul was going to take that place since he is younger, if he couldn't, then it means he wasn't worthy and needed more training just like Anakin needed in Episode 2 until Episode 3.

    But instead Maul becomes the Sith apprentice over Sifo-Dyas or over Dooku at a very young age, similar to Anakin, then I assume that he must have done something to prove that he is worthy to become a Sith Lord at a very young age, and not needing any more training.

    If he was eliminated by Dooku, then it's possibly happened before Episode 1, which means Dooku was already working for Sidious before Episode 1, but without being Sidious's apprentice, while Sifo-Dyas was officially an apprentice.

    Then Dooku should've been the next apprentice, if he really eliminated Sifo-Dyas?

    Or if Maul defeated Sifo-Dyas, become the next apprentice, but Sidious perhaps told Maul not to kill Sifo-dyas, so he can use him for other things. Such as testing former Jedi Dooku's loyalty, if Dooku kills him, he would pass the test and they could trust Dooku. That could be another route for that if Sifo-Dyas was the apprentice before Maul.

    Sifo-Dyas dying after Episode 1 didn't make sense for me though, why would Sidious keep his former Sith apprentice Sifo-Dyas around for so long after Maul becomes the new Sith apprentice? I think they should've dealt with that Sifo-dyas problem before making their move against the Jedi on Naboo.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    Why would one think that? Sifo-Dyas was eliminated by the Pykes (under Sidious's orders through Dooku).

    As far as the Sith are concerned, the only established rule is the apprentice getting rid of the master.

    The reason we have Anakin and Luke being tested against the established Sith apprentices is a) Sidious was looking for a replacement and was aware of the potential of the prospects, and b) he doesn't know what their capabilities are and wants them tested in order to know (and see if they are worthy of taking the apprentice position).

    Because as far as Sidious is concerned, the army has been ordered as he intended, and it's essential that its creation is tied to a Jedi, and it's essential that said Jedi's fate is surrounded in mystery to further confuse the Jedi when the time comes.

    He didn't give up anything. Sifo-Dyas was betrayed and shot down, remember?

    Because Sifo-Dyas had served his purpose by that point, and keeping him around much longer could compromise his plan. With him gone, Maul was next in line, and by that point Maul was ready to become a Sith Lord.

    Why would Sidious pit Sifo-Dyas against Maul and let the defeated Sifo-Dyas live? It's not even comparable with Sidious letting Maul live after he defeated him. Sidious wasn't looking for a new apprentice. He wasn't testing anyone's abilities. Sidious went to face him in order to end Maul's plans and get the situation under his control, and at the same time use Maul as bait to get rid of Mother Talzin.

    Unlike Anakin's, Sidious was responsible for Maul's training. He raised him and trained him for decades, he knows better than anyone what Maul's capabilities are and when he's ready to become a Sith Lord. For everyone else, Anakin, Luke, etc, he has to gauge and test them.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  15. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    Then, considering the Sith and especially considering Sidious, he wouldn't be sentimental about this just because he raised Maul, Maul shouldn't get any benefit over other candidates when he wasn't deserving that position. Can we say that Maul > Dooku or Sifo-dyas in terms of power, at least at that time of period? At least even if Dooku turned to the dark side at that time, he also needed more Sith training to grow more powerful? IIRC, in the AotC Scripts, Dooku tells Obi-Wan he was trained as a Sith and grow more powerful.

    Also, I don't think Sifo-dyas would compromised Sidious's plan, if Sidious accepted him as an apprentice then I believe Sifo-dyas would be loyal to Sidious, and Sidious would trust him at some level. I believe Sidious also used Sifo-dyas in other missions, I don't think Sifo-dyas needed to be a Sith lord in order to arrange that deal with Kaminoans only, he could do that as an ally instead of being a Sith lord, if Sidious made him a Sith lord, then he surely used Sifo-dyas for other missions as well.

    I believe considering Sifo-dyas's vast experience as a Jedi master, and since he was a Sith lord, he was also trained at some level, he could do the most of the things that Maul could do. Then Sidious deciding Maul should be the new apprentice should mean one thing; Maul must be stronger than Sifo-dyas at the time he replaced him as a Sith apprentice, as well as stronger than other candidates such as Dark Jedi ally Dooku, when at the time Dooku wasn't trained as a Sith yet, and also needed to be trained as a Sith at least a little.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Jul 7, 2009
    Nobody said anything about Sidious being sentimental. What I said is that Sidious knows Maul's capabilities. And there were no other candidates. There was only Maul, which was Sidious biggest investment since he trained him ever since he was a kid.

    No, we can't.

    Dooku says it in the film.

    "As you see, my Jedi powers are far beyond yours."

    "I have become more powerful than any Jedi."

    Sifo-Dyas was still part of the Jedi Order. He would inherently compromise Sidious's plan by the very fact that he was alive. His loyalty or lack thereof is irrelevant.

    Yes, it's possible that he had other missions other than the clone army one.

    Maul doesn't need to be stronger than Sifo-Dyas in order to be appointed as the new Sith Lord. Like I said, Sidious needed to get rid of Sifo-Dyas. With him gone, Maul was right there and was deemed ready to take over. That's the entire point for why he was trained for decades by Sidious himself.

    Maul was a younger apprentice, that if not stronger had at least much more potential and room to grow. And he didn't compromise anything.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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  17. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    Then he should also know that Maul was more powerful, if he knows his capabilities, otherwise he would wait a little more until Maul grows powerful enough to surpass his previous apprentice Sifo-dyas.

    Other candidates are clearly Dooku, as we see he went to Dooku right after Maul died. He didn't even search a new name since he already had Dooku working for him, as he get Sifo-dyas killed by using Dooku 10 years before Episode 2, which means Dooku was working for Sidious even during the time of Episode 1, he surely considered Dooku as another candidate.

    Considering Sidious has ''many'' back up plans, (this is a guy that he planned what happens after he dies in RotJ) I don't think he never considered the possibility of Maul dying, it was possible, and he surely had other plans if that happened. And Dooku was one of those plans, and he already had Sifo-dyas as his first apprentice, he would simply wait and train Maul more. If Maul wasn't the strongest and the best candidate, he wouldn't give up on his previous apprentice and his other candidates.

    We also know in the early designs of Episode 2, Asajj Ventress was going to be the next Sith apprentice of Sidious, not Dooku, then Lucas changed those early plans and made Dooku as the next Sith apprentice of Sidious, not Ventress. I think Ventress was also another candidate that Sidious could use.

    So was Dooku, so was Anakin after him. I don't think that's the reason why he needed to replaced. After all, Sidious trusted him enough to make him a Sith lord, Sifo-dyas could put Sidious's plans at risk since the very first day he was accepted as a Sith lord. But he didn't. I don't think that would be the reason.

    There are 10 years between Episode 1 and Episode 2, Jedi only learns about the Clone Army and Sifo-dyas's arrangement 10 years after Episode 1, when Obi-Wan tracked Jango Fett on Kamino.

    Sifo-dyas could clearly stay as an apprentice between Episode 1 and Episode 2, and the Jedi would still not know anything about it. As they didn't know anything about Sifo-dyas being a Sith lord and making that deal with Kaminoans.

    I think this would cheapen the position of the Sith lords and the position of Sidious's apprentice, if Sifo-dyas was just used by Sidious to arrange a deal with Kaminoans, why he made him a Sith lord? As you agreed, he must have used him for other missions as well. It was unnecessary, that was my point. Sifo-dyas could do that arrangement without being a Sith lord, and in the current canon, he did considering Lucas's statement never happened in any canon material, so we assume that Sifo-dyas made that arrangement without being a Sith lord.

    Why Sidious made Sifo-dyas a Sith lord? Surely Sifo-dyas should be more important, more skilled than we know. Considering that Sidious wouldn't randomly chooses his apprentices, and he wouldn't reveal his secrets easily. If Sifo-dyas become a Sith lord, then he knew everything about the Sith plans and about Sidious, thus it makes Sifo-dyas an important figure as a Sith lord. What you are saying that Sidious just gets rid of his apprentice, just because it's possible that he could risk his plans just doesn't make sense. If Sifo-dyas was just that easy to dispose, then Sidious wouldn't make him a Sith lord in the first place, he would simply use him as a Dark Jedi ally as he used Dooku during Episode 1.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
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  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    I came across this in another thread but I find the timeline to be wonky.

    In the films, ten years passed between TPM and AotC and Sifo-Dyas was said to have been killed almost ten years ago. So after TPM.
    Maul was the Sith apprentice in TPM and Sifo-Dyas was still alive?
    TCW I think has Sifo-Dyas death be just before TPM so now Maul is the Sith apprentice and Sifo-Dyas is dead. So how long was Maul the Sith apprentice? A week?
    Dooku was the one who had Sifo-Dyas killed, not Maul.

    Was Maul made into the apprentice while Sifo-Dyas was still alive?
    Can Sidious demote a Sith apprentice and promote another while keeping the former Sith alive and working for him?
    If Luke turned but Vader was also still alive, could Sidious have Luke be the Sith apprentice and demote Vader from being a Sith but Vader still serves him? If he can, what use is the rule of two? Any Sith master can get around it by simply having one official Sith apprentice but having loads of former Siths working for him.

    As was said, if all Sifo-Dyas did was the ordering of the clone army, why make him a full fledged Sith?
    Just use for that and then dispose of him.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2021
    lord_sidious_ and Iron_lord like this.
  19. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    Obi-Wan also said later he was under the impression that Sifo-dyas was killed even before that,

    so it's possible it happened before Episode 1, it could be 11 or 12 years before as well.

    I think Maul become a Sith lord a couple of years before Episode 1, probably 2 or 3 years before, that's probably the maximum gap, could be even 1 or 2 since he was very young, 22 years old at Episode 1, I don't think they become a Sith Lord that young, Anakin become one, but Anakin was also a special talent, even though Maul is a special talent too, Anakin's talent was better than even Palpatine's. So even if Maul become a Sith lord 1 year before Episode 1, he would be still younger than even Anakin (22), as Maul was 21 years old 1 year before Episode 1.

    Sifo-dyas was probably worked with Sidious before that, then he was killed by Dooku at some point.

    Maul didn't see Dooku before, that's certain in Son of Dathomir comic book, he says he expected more from Dooku as seeing him, he was disappointed.

    Did Maul see Sifo-dyas before? That's up to debate.

    Maul says Clone army was part of the plan,

    so knows some things about Sidious's and Sifo-dyas's clone army plan, but he didn't know anything about Sidious putting chips inside of the Clones and turning them against the Jedi,

    He only knew the Clones are part of the plan, so at the time, he probably learned only that they were going to create a conflict with the Jedi, and gave an army to Jedi, and Separatists with Droids, and made them fight. Perhaps Sidious wasn't even going to tell him that in Episode 2 and Episode 3 if Maul survived, perhaps Sidious wanted Maul alive until Episode 3, then he was going to replace him with Anakin. Thus, not letting Maul know about the chips of the Clones make sense, or that the chip idea wasn't created fully at the time so there was no reason to mention that to Maul.

    So in short, it's possible Maul knew about Sifo-dyas, due to knowing the Clones were part of the plan even during Episode 1.

    So how does Maul know about Sifo-dyas, perhaps in Canon Maul contacted with Sifo-dyas, and used him as a dark jedi ally.

    In Lucas's version where Sifo-dyas is a Sith lord, I think Maul should definitely fight with him and show that he is superior, otherwise it doesn't make sense to get rid of Sifo-dyas so easily when Sidious made him an important figure as a Sith lord and trusted him enough to arrange the Kaminoans deal, only to get him killed with an accident would make no sense, I think Maul during that time of periode 3 to 1 year before Episode 1, he proved he was better than Sifo-dyas, and then they get him killed in accident, since the Jedi would look for his body, they would be suspicious if he was killed by a lightsaber wound.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  20. IJjones41

    IJjones41 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Nov 13, 2021
    I thought Sidious had not recruited Dooku until after the events of TPM by taking advantage of the Jedi Master's emotional response to Qui-Gon's death.
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 2, 2012
    In Legends, yes. Mostly because Dooku hadn't committed to leaving the Order till TPM.

    In the newcanon, Dooku leaves the Order much earlier, and works for Sidious for some time before being elevated to Dark Lord.
  22. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Sep 4, 2012

    Thanks for the info but problems.

    Obi-Wan says that the clone army was ordered almost ten years ago, by Sifo-Dyas and at the request of the senate.
    If that was Sifo-Dyas who placed that order then he was killed after TPM.

    If he was killed 1-2 years before TPM then he did not place the order. Which apparently was one of the things Sidious wanted from him.

    If he did place the order and it was 12-13 years ago then that conflicts with what Obi-Wan says.
    And if we assume that Obi-Wan was just wrong then why place the order for the clone army years before Palpatine becomes chancellor?
    The clone army is for the Republic so he would only want it to be made if he was chancellor. If someone else was chancellor, he would be giving them an army.
    So to me it makes sense that Palpatine would set the clone army in motion AFTER he had become chancellor.
    Plus, since this would be expensive, as chancellor, he would have an easier time diverting funds to pay for it.
    Plus the Kamino people say that the grown clones in half the time and we see a group of kids that look about ten that were started five years ago. So the adult clones would then have started ten years ago. If the order came 12 years ago then what did they do the first two years?

    This plot point seems to get more and more convoluted as time passes.
    First it was Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi. That was far too obvious so Lucas changed it to, Sifo-Dyas, a real but dead Jedi. That apparently were killed before the army was ordered. So whoever placed the army just used his name. Then various EU had Sifo-Dyas somewhat involved, making the initial contact etc. But it was due to him being manipulated by Dooku/Palpatine and he did not know what the end goal was.
    Now he is apparently a Sith and placed the order as part of the Sith plan.
    So now we have three Jedi that were turned by Sidious in slightly over a decade. To me, this makes Anakin less special.
    Two Jedi masters turned before him.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 2, 2012
    And worse yet, one managed to be "a leading member of the Jedi Council" and a Sith Lord at the same time.
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  24. lord_sidious_

    lord_sidious_ Jedi Knight star 3

    Feb 19, 2019
    I’m so lost it’s actually kinda hilarious lol. When and where did that quote (about Sifo-Dyas being the Sith apprentice before Maul) come from? Any other info that came with it? It was overlooked by the entire fandom until someone noticed it recently???

    Personally I like to just go by the first 6 movies alone and ignore everything else, but I’m still curious what Lucas had in mind. This new info brings up more questions than answers. For one, did Sifo-Dyas actually order the clone army?
    1) If yes: Interesting because the Jedi thought he died before the clones were ordered. So they somehow got his date of death wrong. Did he fake his death on purpose before ordering the army?
    2) If no: Has he contributed anything to the Sith plot then?
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  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Wacky Wednesday Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Sep 2, 2012
    Apparently it's from an interview with a guy called Paul Duncan, in a book called "The Star Wars Archives. 1999–2005".