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Saga If Star Wars was "Make your own canon"?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Solister, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. Solister

    Solister Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2019
    This is just an accidental idea I had and thought can bring some interesting reflection.
    I don't know if any franchise ever did this, but what if Star Wars wasn't a standard canon? Like, Disney release and license lots of content about Star Wars, and if you like it, you add to your canon.
    Disliked the prequels? No problem, it didn't happened if you want to believe. Found an amazing book which passes at the same time of the Prequels? Awesome, it's what happened before A New Hope.
    If so, it might even happen of other books change a few perceptions from past works:
    Darth Vader is Luke father in Episode V? Well, in this book it was just Luke's hallucinations.
    Even, as it quite happen for many, we could even create situations as it happened in content but it will ever be alive in our memories (Like, every important character life in the franchise).

    If you liked this idea, which would be your canon content?

    For me, I think I'll take Episode III up to VI as canon, RO also happened but I'd link to a fan fiction I have an idea for which changes the main characters end to something where they live and even interact with the OT characters but in a time off the movies, of course. Plus, I think I would link Thrawn trilogy as my canon sequel.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  2. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    That's uh... kinda how things have always been?
     
  3. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 9, 2001
    Yes, every fan has his or her own head canon. I personally accept the saga films as canon, but can take or leave the rest. I'm currently on the fence about the sequel trilogy. I'd like to be able to say "yep three real trilogies" but another part of me thinks "no, this is just licensed material that is better than the rest." I mean, if the sequel trilogy is integral, it is the weakest part of the saga despite having some good points.
     
  4. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Exclude the ST and tie in material.

    Include a lot of the discarded C Canon material as well.
     
  5. TheCloneWarsForever

    TheCloneWarsForever Force Ghost star 7

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    Apr 24, 2018
    1-6, The Clone Wars, Rebels, The Mandalorian (so far). Most of the new EU that I've read with a few pointed exceptions (cough... Aftermath) - which is about a third of it, I think... haven't kept close count. Other than Bloodline, the ones I've read were all in the PT/Dark Times/OT era.) Rogue One, I can take or leave. It doesn't have a place with the others because it just doesn't leave a mark for me but it's not offensive either.
    .
    The Legends EU - I don't discount it but I don't try to force it into harmony with the Disney canon either. I don't need to do that to enjoy it.
    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  6. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Love them or hate them, Disney did a lot to clean up the continuity and keep a tighter grip on how different stories fit together. It seems like Lucasfilm adopted this attitude later on, but the original EU was already a lawless wasteland by this point that tried to incorporate anything and everything.

    Though while Disney canon is easily approachable by new fans, I think the authority seems kind of arbitrary when you still have the original creator to dictate what actually happened. So to answer on a personal level, essentially G-canon is my standard. 1-6 are the undisputed core story. Meanwhile, there’s plenty of EU stories that have plot elements that came directly from Lucasfilm, or even Lucas himself; or things that Lucas said were honorary parts of the story after the fact. Elements of things like Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, Holiday Special, original Marvel Comics, Clone Wars 2D and 3D came straight from the horse’s mouth. Granted the viewer must mind the contradictions and default to the later stories.
     
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  7. Chancellor Yoda

    Chancellor Yoda Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 25, 2014
    I do consider 1-6, The Mandalorian, TCW and Rebels all as immovable part of my personal head canon. I haven't decided on the ST though either way I do consider it the weakest of the trilogies despite having it's great moments.

    I'm fairly flexible on both canon and Legends EU, as both continuities have some of my favorite stories in the Star Wars universe and there canon status has little baring in how I enjoy them.
     
  8. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    None of it's canon. Because it actually all happened. I was there
     
  9. Drac39

    Drac39 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jul 9, 2002
    I'm simple and do not demand a lot. The unaltered OT is canon and the SE's are not. I'd remove any reference to midichlorians from the PT but I'd keep them otherwise.

    That's it.
     
  10. Chancellor Yoda

    Chancellor Yoda Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 25, 2014
    Missed the edit window for my previous post as I completely forgot to include RO and Solo as my headcanon, RO in particularly being the best thing Disney has done in Star Wars.
     
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  11. Eike Starseeker

    Eike Starseeker Jedi Knight star 1

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    Aug 1, 2019
    Everyone can choose what they accept as canon some call it headcanon, i just call it my canon.
    I ignore the ST, disney or anyone cant force me to like or accept it, I dont care what happened in their universe, I have my own.
    If you dont like something just ignore it, nobody can stop you.
     
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  12. Hernalt

    Hernalt Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 29, 2000
    "Objective" is of course an overused subjective word. So when I make a claim, "Lucas' early scripts for SW77, ESB, ROTJ betray fan fictional notions that were, at that time, objectively, not properly baked", well, that's a subjective statement. The only basis for assertion of objectivity is the amount of time that was committed to baking the story properly. What we got in the theatrical run of each OT film is a sort of standardizable quality that is a result of three year's baking time Plus the installed prior vision of the creator of each being the creator of the original idea. However, it is also Minus the fact of handicaps in personal lives that result in losses in story intensity or robustness, unexpected or even unwanted gains in story intensity or robustness due to competing cost models between writing and production, and other out-universe factors.

    If one can objectively measure the distance achieved between where the creator of the franchise started on a certain idea, and where he ended on a certain idea in the theatrical release, that is a basis for arguing what constitutes "objectively half baked". In my subjective opinion, the Disney ST is objectively half baked. To be certainly unassailably objective, Disney tried to punch out three productions labelled Star Wars in two-thirds the time, each, of any production that was legitimate Star Wars. It is worth noting that Rian Johnson had a large number of months to work on a story, remained uninterrupted, and was (as far as I am aware) given complete dictatorial powers (in the classical Roman sense), and so his story in isolation might betray a pleasing self-sufficiency. It still was not an orderly relay hand off with other dictators, due to staggered writing times. Disney's ST attempt in its totality is objectively half baked, whether or not individual dishes might be baked.

    Canon is an objective argument that a work or a production came from the person responsible for delivering the results of viewer satisfaction that can be obtained from the OT. OT is really all that matters, as far as calibrating anything, because that was Lucas in his visionary vigor at the greatest loss for tools to execute that vision, and, look at the gains. That was the three Silmarils (one has visible flaws). Because a good amount of OT early drafts and scripts are publicly accessible, a disinterested reader can see the distance taken from a half baked idea to the fully baked idea (plus or minus out-universe factors), and can arrive at an evidence based opinion on what it takes to merit the pedigree of canon.

    Of the ST, there are isolated items that are fully baked. They are sufficiently thought through to have achieved the distance, evidenced in OT early scripts and drafts, between half-baked and fully baked. It's hard to identify them and just rattle them off because there's not many, and they are buried under heaps of half-baked ideas. The best example of a fully baked idea that would be at home in Lucas Continuity is Finn the ex-Stormtrooper. It becomes tedious and contentious to start listing what I *think is a next runner up, and so forth. As an absolute, objective statement, the best I would go is, "There exist isolated fully baked ideas inside Disney's ST that would be at home in Lucas Continuity."

    Canon is also a defense used by those who feel a present work by earnest creators is being treated unfairly, or, unobjectively.
    Canon is also a defense used by authority, and authority structures, whose bread is buttered by a particular dominant narrative and orientation vis-a-vis the present holders of the legal right to generate revenue from content labeled Star Wars. For instance, think of any random internet forum where fans can discuss Star Wars. It is possibly a forum delivered by software, that requires talented, agile, responsive technical support. It is possibly a forum attached to a web domain owned by a private company, a Limited Liability Corporation. Possibly, that Limited Liability Corporation is owned by private individuals whose relationship or distance from the creator of the franchise is varied and not necessarily close by any usual measure.

    The power of "canon", and the reason that it is a word that can have a strong influence on the weak minded, is that it ports a human craving to have access to, and possession of, a truth that rides high above a tumult of deception, fraud, and taking advantage.

    I have no conclusion or resolution to advocate. There is Zero stunning mic drop on this topic. The idea of canon is a pursuit and a journey. Just to coin a phrase right this instant, "canon" should probably be defined as "the pursuit of the basis for which a claim of canon is made". It's not a sitting target. It was not a sitting target at the end of SW77, nor at the end of ESB. I would argue that the ending of ROTJ, 1983, was a lock on canon. But I cannot say that Lucas' tinkering in the Special Editions added nothing that helps the canonicity of the original ROTJ. As much as I like the idea of the OT canon being a sitting target, to last for all time, there are always discoveries that can be made by new methods that subtly unseat, unfasten, loosen the canonicity of any particular OT idea or statement. The fact that Robot Chicken got as much mileage as it did was because it laid bare the puzzles and absurdities of dictatorial canon. It was pursuing the basis for which a claim of canon is made.

    That's another topic I'll mention and not pursue - the proportion of dictatorial generalist vision to collaborative involvement of many specialists makes a difference in the final outcome. Canonicity seems to be highest where there is a certain substantial proportion of collaboration, but not a complete absence or rout of dictatorial vision. ESB is the model. But then it's possible (likely) that ESB broke the mold and cannot be achieved again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
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  13. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 5, 2012
    @Hernalt while I agree with a lot of your conclusions, where does that leave the prequels? Fundamentally, they’re no different than the original two sequels; they have their share of retcons and contradictions, but still have a cohesiveness allowed by being crafted by the original creator.

    Also, while the Special Editions have continuously changed the films, I think the effects on canon are relatively minimal and don’t have a substantial effect on the series, at least as far as storytelling is concerned.
     
  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    I think the decision of what constitutes or is accepted as canon should be a privilege of the creator, not of a third party. Be it fans, companies or someone else. So whatever Lucas deemed canon is what I consider canon.
     
  15. devilinthedetails

    devilinthedetails Fantastically Fiendish Fanfic Manager star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Jun 19, 2019
    Interesting question. The Original Trilogy is definitely intellectually and emotionally canon with me. It was my first experience of Star Wars, what brought me into the Star Wars universe. The Prequel Trilogy is also very much my intellectual and emotional canon, since to me knowing the backstory of Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and being able to see things like the duel on Mustafar added to the epic scope and mythological quality of Star Wars. These films are the highest canon for me, though I do think there are some contradictions between the two trilogies such as Leia being able to remember her mother when Padme died in childbirth. Since there are these contradictions between the films, I try not to obsess too much over what is canon or not and just either accept that not all Star Wars content is going to fit together perfectly or just focus on the Star Wars content that I do like. Despite the contradictions between the OT and PT, I think big picture they do align, so in evaluating my personal canon, the big picture of how various content fits with the OT and the PT is a big factor as well as just whether I found the work intellectually and emotionally fulfilling.

    The ST is intellectually canon to me in that I accept that it happens in the Star Wars universe and wouldn't deny its canon status. However, emotionally, it really fails to resonate with me overall, so I don't tend to think about it at all when re-watching the PT and the OT. It's definitely in a lower tier of canon status for me.

    Rogue One fits very well with the OT for me, serving as a great prequel and lead-in to ANH. I find that enhances the meaning of ANH and the destruction of the Death Star to know the sacrifice behind the Rebel Alliance getting the Death Star plans. It's a higher tier of canon status for me than the ST though it may not enter that sort of untouchable canon status of the PT and the OT for me.

    I enjoyed the Solo movie, but for me it's a fun movie rather than one I've really integrated into canon to the same level I have Rogue One. I don't really think about Solo when watching the OT, and I didn't like Maul's comeback since to me it contradicted a reasonable person's interpretation of TPM, which I see as among the highest forms of canon, so to me Maul's return isn't really "canon." I don't think about it at all when I watch TPM, and if someone were to ask me what happened to Maul at the end of TPM, I'd still say he died.

    I haven't really watched enough of the animated shows like Clone Wars, Rebels, and Resistance to have much of an opinion on where they fit in my canon. Anything that to me contradicts the highest canon like Maul's return wouldn't be canon to me.

    I've overall liked and been impressed with the Mandalorian show so far, but I don't think of it as in quite the highest tier of canon with the OT and the PT. I also don't tend to think of it as part of the larger story when watching the main saga, so it probably fits in around the same level as Solo.

    I still consider much of the Old Republic, Darth Bane, and PT Legends books part of my canon especially since they don't really tend to contradict anything in the ST. They're a tier lower than the OT and PT but still in many ways part of my emotional and intellectual canon. With the Post_ROTJ Legends EU, much of what happens with characters like Han, Leia, Luke, Mara Jade, and Ben Skywalker is emotionally canon to me even if intellectually I know its been superseded by the ST. Emotionally, the old Legends EU resonates with me more, though I still don't tend to think about it when watching the OT. New Canon novels that I like such as everything by Claudia Gray tend to get integrated into my canon in the same way as the Old Republic, Darth Bane, and PT Legends books. New Canon books that I don't like such as Phasma and the entire Aftermath trilogy I try to devote as little mental space as possible to remembering, though, occasional details like Hux having an abusive father might stick with me and become a meaningful part of my canon. Hux's history does add some weight to TROS for me despite the Aftermath trilogy overall being quite a slog for me, so I include that detail in my canon despite the Aftermath trilogy as a whole not really being part of my personal canon.

    Sorry for the long post. Hopefully some of my complicated relationship with Star Wars canon made some sense because it's confusing even to me8-}
     
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  16. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager -King of the North star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    The one issue that I have with this is that Disney/LFL, as the owner of Star Wars, is within its absolete right to say what is or is what is not Canon (or create a stratification of canon that happened prior to the merger). While I have my own distinct idea of what story lines worked or didnt work, I dont think anyone can override Disney/LFL.

    While its one thing to believe in what should have or should not have been canon, we are really stuck with Disney/LFL's determination.
     
  17. RIP.CommanderPonds

    RIP.CommanderPonds Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2020
    This is a difficult question.
    One the one hand, I love the OT, its characters, and all of the lore and the feeling of the movies as a whole. However, I absolutely adore the Clone Wars, and my hands-down favorite characters are all from that era. As much as I love the OT, I really wish for the sake of he galaxy (even if it is imaginary) that at the end of ROTS Mace killed Palpatine, Anakin left the order with Padme, and the happy ever after happened before Order 66. Merge that with Karen Traviss' Republic Commando novels, where most of the clones receive a *special* vaccine. Those who have read the books will know what I mean.

    Most importantly, in my head canon, the final arc if Clone Wars Season 2 never happens, and Commander Ponds lives to a ripe old age happily with his retired Clone brothers.
     
  18. Anakin's Daddy

    Anakin's Daddy Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2002
    My canon has always been just live action, with the exception of the lame attempts of the Ewok and Holiday Special films. Not any of the cartoon series, the books or the comics are officially canon to me. Once it becomes live action, it becomes canon in my mind.

    And the way I see it, you CAN have your own canon because what are people going to tell you? You're wrong because these events actually happened? :p
     
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  19. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

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    Nov 28, 2015
    OT and PT are canon at the most high. I can even accept Solo and RO (though I didn't like Rogue One as a film). I feel more comfortable saying Legends EU with Jacen, Jaina, and Anakin Solo are more canon post-ROTJ than the ST (especially the NJO, Dark Nest Crisis, LOTF, and FOTJ) which tie-in well to the PT.

    The Disney ST has some very very teeny small tie-ins to the PT (like Hayden's voice as Anakin), but I feel the overall concept of that trilogy was to pretend that George's PT didnt happen and you can easily ignore Hayden and the other PT Jedi's voices (or mentally replace it with Sebastian Shaw).

    For me the Disney ST exists in a timeframe where an alternate PT happened from someone's fanfic or rewrite. So, I don't wanna immerse in a SW universe where TPM, AOTC, and ROTS are not canon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  20. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 7

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    Dec 23, 2015
    I view Eps I - VI as the Saga. Everything else is extended canon and world building for the saga. There, my headcanon is a mishmash of TCW and Rebels, R1, Mandalorian, and some Legends/some EU novels. Also KOTOR and a ton of Dark Horse comics that I have become attached to. Solo I can take or leave as an independent story and our Chewie, but I really just have trouble viewing that Han character as ANH Han. I’m fine accepting him as an old friend of Chewie’s that has Han’s name. The ST doesn’t fit anywhere, so for now I’m going with a bunch of Legends for how the Skywalker lives went after RotJ, but not all of it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  21. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    My personal canon is I-VI plus Rogue One, Clone Wars, and The Mandalorian, minus anything that I feel isn’t a natural fit but exists for OOU reasons. For example in my mind Kit Fisto et al. actually put up a fight but ROTS has to skip through that for time reasons. For Rogue One I don’t include the design flaw being deliberate and the Tantive IV was never at the Battle of Scarif. I also think Vader inflicts too much damage on his arrival for what is intended to be an unequivocal Rebel Victory. Solo is a fun movie but I can’t consider it canon. Relatedly, Darth Maul’s resurrection was an excuse to explore some very cool storylines but absolutely did not really happen. To be honest there’s a lot of Clone Wars that I don’t count but most of the battles I consider to have actually taken place. Off the top of my head I don’t really believe Ashoka existed or the Jedi knew Dooku was Tyrannous, nor some more minor things like Tarpals’ death and Barriss the Terrorist. I was actually happy when Disney announced the old EU was toast but with the ability to bring back certain aspects as they choose, as that’s basically what I had already been doing. For example things like Chewbacca’s death and Palpatine reborn I considered nonsense, as well as minor things like only 8 TIEs being deployed at the Battle of Yavin, but at the same time the Kessel Run blackhole explanation for why 12 parsecs is impressive I consider to be fact. This way simply by appearing in TCW for 10 seconds characters like Delta Squad aren’t deleted from existence but it’s left ambiguous whether this means Sev was rescued or that he never went MIA in the first place in this universe. Now of course, inherently the idea of a new unified canon runs the risk of developing inconsistencies of its own, as well as disagreeing with ones own tastes about what is “worthy” of borrowing from Legends, both of which I feel have already happened, but I still think it was worth a try. To sum up because this post got kind of ramble-y: I think the OT did an excellent job at making the GFFA feel like a real place, and because of that there’s an implication that there’s a lot more happening off camera than what we have time to explore in the movies. In that sense all of “canon” was created in ANH and it’s simply a matter of moving our lense around time and space to discover it. There’s still some gray area around things like special editions but the main point is contradicting the spirit of the source material is a big no from me even if there’s nothing directly stated that disallows it.
     
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  22. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 9

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    May 18, 2017
    Boba Fett would be Supreme Leader
     
  23. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 4, 1998
    In my headcanon, the PT is an in-universe drama loosely (VERY loosely) inspired by the real events of the OT. Some holo-filmmakers decided to come up with a story about how Darth Vader came to be, and that's what they dreamed up.

    And all the animated shows are in-universe children's shows set in the "real world" GFFA.
     
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  24. Ubraniff Zalkaz

    Ubraniff Zalkaz Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2014
    Everything they say is canon is canon to me. I have most of the new canon comic collections and the film comic adaptions. I'm trying to get as much of star wars in comic form, so when I'm an old hermit living in the woods I can just read star wars and not be bothered with streaming or having the films on current hardware.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  25. cratylus

    cratylus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2001
    But it is make up your own canon. People call this head canon now, but you can do this. It doesn't matter what Lucasfilm says, and I'm especially dismissive of this concept since they were sold to Disney. But here is my perspective on the whole thing.

    I consider the original release of the classic trilogy films prime canon. Deleted scenes are optional canon. Some count and others don't.

    I consider the prequel films canon, second only to the classic trilogy.

    I want to consider the sequel films canon, but am still working through my fan theories and interpretations to justify it all. So they are probationary canon.

    Everything else, literally everything, is non-canon. That is, I might enjoy it, but am able to question its complete veracity to the "real" GFFA that it's reporting on. In fact I sometimes think this can apply to canon films too--they are a version of events, but if something doesn't seem right I could say that the retelling isn't 100% accurate. But I definitely apply this to Anthology films and other Star Wars content.

    From the EU, it's always been a cafeteria approach for me. Unlike some fans, I have had a problem with every EU entry, from the Marvel comics to the Tim Zahn books to the Dark Horse comics to the video games and all the other novels. None of them was 100% right to me. But I liked bits and pieces, or sometimes aspects of these entries. Other books and comics I skipped altogether or only skimmed.

    I might waver a little on the sequel trilogy, but however a "saga film" is defined, I call the saga films canon. They are the real Star Wars saga and everything else is supplementary, optional, and deutero-canonical. I should say deutero-canonical at best, because to me The Crystal Star never counted as anything. I couldn't read it. That's one example. I don't think fans should feel bound by anything. I reject, or mostly reject, such innovations as Darth Maul coming back and anything involving negations of the Force. To me those narratives aren't really right. I prefer the old cartoon clone war shorts to the clone war tv show. My mind could be changed, I am not saying it's all junk, but I really liked the old one. I've seen only a little of rebels but some of what I've heard turns me off. I look forward to the Mandalorian, but haven't seen it yet.

    It's fun to have other things and pick and choose what to accept or appreciate, but to me the saga films should be interpreted only in light of other saga films, with little to no outside sources affecting the interpretation. That's my take, although it should be explicit that I really do like many entries I consider flawed. Especially all the stuff that came out in the early nineties, I saw these things as alternative continuations because the tone and flavor varied so much. To me Thrawn and Bakura and Dark Empire were three unrelated continuations, I didn't take to fitting it all together. As noted above, the Crystal Star changed my course and I read less after that.
     
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