If the Saga isn't perfect, where did it go wrong?

Gomer, it goes both ways. It's not about "protecting the feelings of detractors," because one could say it also "protects the feelings of defenders," it's about trying to maintain conversation and discussion that's more than just people talking about each other while keeping it from degrading into a mess of ad hominem attacks and insults. I mean, honestly, if you can't make a Star Wars point by keeping it about Star Wars, then you didn't have a point at all. If George Lucas were posting on these boards, he'd get the same protection as everyone else because he is actively participating, but he isn't, so users on the board end up discussing him as an artist. He has that detachment that allows for analytical dissection, both critical and praise. It's like saying someone shouldn't talk about Shakespeare's plays or have a negative opinion because he's dead and can't defend himself, only to then start talking about Shakespeare detractors by assuming their lives outside of the discussion. It's a weak approach to an argument.

 

Go-Mer,

We the fans are not responsible for the movies. Therefore, we shouldn't be held accountable in any way for their successes and/or failures. George Lucas is the sole person responsible here. It's not about judging or being judged. If you don't want your piece of work critiqued, don't put it out there. I'm sure George knew he'd have people who didn't like the prequels. It was a no-win situation for him. He followed his game plan and put out the movies he wanted to put out. Whether they succeeded or not is up to the viewers.

 

Words of wisdom.

 

Uhh, when I said you'd hurt his feelings, ahem, I was kidding.

 

What are you talking about? I wasn't addressing anything you had said.

I just think that everyone should be held accountable for their own actions, not just Lucas.

He's responsible for the movies he made, we are responsible for the way we approach them.

It's not all Lucas' fault that some weren't impressed, otherwise nobody would have been impressed.

Wether they succeeded or not was up to the viewers, and they succeeded more than most films do.

 

Be that as it may, I wouldn't start insulting the other posters here.

 

I would rather people stopped insulting Lucas.

 

No one is insulting Lucas, the mods make sure of that. No one insults him as a person, but he is approached as an artist. The critiques approached to him are based on his public statements and his artistic expressions. What he's said to the media is up to interpretation, as is the works he's put out there. No one has insulted him as a person, his personal life has never been called into question, and the mods have made sure no one flagrantly insults George Lucas. Now, if you blur the line betweem criticism and insult, where there is no difference between having a less than favorable view of Lucas based on his own words, and himself as a man, then that problem lies with you and not wanting to separate the man from the artist or his words. In that case, it's an argument tool you wish to not let go of.

 

Is it your personal mission in life to defend this guy? He's an artist that puts his works out there for the public to discuss. He's a grown man, he can handle it. He's been dealing with negative publicity since 1977.

 

Pfff! I'd say before that - since THX1138 came out!

 

I happen to think Lucas is a decent and respectable human being, worthy of the kind of respect we expect for each other.

 

Except for his views on vegetables; nobody could be that wrong about asparagus!

 

Well, I don't think that the Saga is perfect. But it's my favourite bunch o' films ever. Where did the Saga go wrong? It didn't 'go wrong', really. One doesn't need to love every frame or mhz I suppose. We all take something differently from it. And we post here because most people in our real lives couldn't give a tinker's damn about it like we do. But man, oh man. I think that GL has got the most forgiving fan base ever. As much as he takes endless cyber-swatting, his fans are the first to back him up.

 

To Go-Mer-Tonic:

i have insulted Lucas as a human being numerous times, i have also admitted i have been too harsh in that.

The insults i hurled were the result of the various and contradictory quotes from his interviews.

I have realized that the problem is more with some posters on this board cherry picking a single line from an explanation and presenting it out of context.

In that sense and vein i have backed off of that and concentrate more on rebutting the posters who do this.

Lucas the man is probably a decent enough guy, but he does not keep his terms, facts and even the story strait where it pertains to star wars in his interviews.

He is simply not a reliable source of information on the subject of his own movies when he speaks, this is not an insult it is an oppinion.

Many people great and small are not the best oral communicators, heck we have one such as president now.

The fact that i do not consider lucas a reliable source on star wars has nothing to do with him as a person, except that he's a bad oral speaker, it does not comment on him as a film maker, director or editor.

I will never back off from my possition that it is complete foolishness to try to use a lucas quote as a "fact" on star wars.

as to criticism in general towards lucas and his films, it's a good thing.

if people didn't love his movies then the critics would have shut up long ago.

does anyone criticise "leonard part 6" these days?

hehe i think not.

the critics are as big a reflection of star wars success as the fans are, in a way there is no such thing as bad publicity here.

 

GoMer, there is a difference between critiquing a man's work and critiquing the man himself.

I choose to critiquing Lucas's work while he chooses to keep my money for all the times I have bought something with SW attached to it. I think that is a fair trade off.

I don't like when anyone takes a shot at him personally, to me it is just like a political ad I see on TV every 5 seconds. I don't mind the ones that reveal what the candidate is for or against in terms of public policy, but I don't like the ads that take cheap personal shots at the candidate.

The Saga has 6 movies now with a huge fanbase, so do you really think that EVERY FAN is going to love them equally? You now have 3 versions of the OT movies (O-OT, 1997, 2004), do you really think everyone is going to love one of those versions too?

You can watch the saga 3 ways:

1. Star Wars (1977) - A self contained one movie story that nobody is related, and the story ends as Han & Luke receives their medals. The End.

2. The O-OT (1977-83) - A trilogy about Rebels vs Empire as followed through the good guys of Luke, Leia, and Han and the substory of the trilogy is the redemption of Luke's father Darth Vader.

3. The Saga (PT-OT/SE) - The Tragedy of Darth Vader, as 6 movies show the character arc of this boy who becomes a jedi, who turns to the darkside, he becomes the most evil man in the universe, who then redeems himself and saves his son in the end.

There are so many ways to watch the SW movies now, with so many different versions too, and as I said, do you expect every fan to just fall in line and love EVERYTHING Lucas has put out since 1977?

 

No, no, no. You are only allowed to love the newest version. Forget the rough cut, half-finished stuff from '77 - '97. I guess someone from Fox must have made a big mistake with that material, because Lucas never ever wanted people to fall in love with THAT stuff. Lucas must have been very angry, when he found out, they actually against his will and vision showed his movies in theaters charging money for it and sold several VHS- and LD-versions. WE all know, Lucas always wanted his final visions released as a DVD-box-set in 2007, don't we???

 

Does watching the saga from 4-6, then 1-3 count as a 4th way to watch it?

 

Arguably, yes.

OK, there's been a lot of good discussion on what should or shouldn't be said about GL and about the fans. Just to reiderate the Saga and movie forum position:

1. GL cannot be the target of personal insults
2. Anything related to the movies, or statements made by GL in reference to the movies is fair game for criticism.
3. You cannot insult, harrass or pyscho-analyze registered board members or groups of fans.


Right, I hinted as much. I can list off all the ideas that were reused in the other four films, but very little of it is in TESB. That was the one film where everything was totally brand new. There might have been a couple of ideas circa May 1977, but these weren't as fleshed out as they are by 1978.

Then it looks like at long last we are in agreement

 

Skimming through and reading some stuff that hasn't been posted on in a while and i just have to give an applaud to this.


Nicely said man.