CT If Vader Was Not Conflicted While Fighting Luke...

That sounds exactly as when I have a cold...
I'm feeling bad, but I keep saying "I'm fine!"

 

Oh. Okay.

 

I mostly agree with The Supreme Chancellor , it is implied that Luke has surpassed Vader in ROTJ. Although Vader is holding back at different stages of the duel (as is Luke - they were both trying to convert each other), when Luke goes all-out Vader is overwhelmed.

However, I do know where Thom Skywalker is coming from to a degree. Luke definitely got to Vader on Endor, and the later line "You don't know the power of the darkside. I must obey my Master" partially seems like Vader trying to convince himsef as much as anyone else.

 

I always assumed Luke gave into the dark side for that brief moment when he was hiding from Vader and then he ignited his saber and yelled no? And then Luke really attacked Vader and took him down. As you can see when Luke stopped you can see he was surprised as to what he just did? Then he declares he will not turn to the darkside. It seems he tapped into it and seen how powerful it can be. But it shows Luke was strong to resist that temptation, with minimal training and understanding about it. Where Anakin had been taught about it and was highly trained and yet fell prey to the darkside.

 

A lot of people seem to underestimate Luke's power. It's pretty clear that the reason Vader seemed so much stronger than Luke throughout the fight is because Luke wasn't even fighting for majority of the fight. He wasn't truly fighting until he got angry, that was the point when he finally fought back.

 

Luke had to grab his lightsaber and actually set up an attack, it'd be pathetic if a Vader couldn't block an extremely telegraphed strike. And Luke never seemed to lose his ground, as I said, he wasn't even attacking for most of the fight, and the second he fought for real it was clear that Vader was screwed.

 

A lot?? Where are they?

Haven't you seen my comments about it?

It looks like a remake post here!!!
To be fair, the other version used the term "borderline retarded". This new term "pathetic" is fine also!

Should I repeat myself?
Should I repeat myself?

Neither Vader was fighting for real...

 

@Darth Cyn the Edit button is a useful tool in order to avoid double posting.
@Thom Skywalker just chill a bit.

 

True he wasn't, however, it was pretty clear he was putting far more effort in, considering I'm sure he was actively trying not to die when Luke fought back.

 

How can I measure those efforts?

 

Actually, at this point in the film, if Vader was not conflicted, I think Luke and him would be pretty evenly matched. Even though there could of been still a good chance Luke would have the upper hand as he certainly proved to be a capable duelist.

 

After Vader cut off his son's hand I think that he was a little bit horrified by what he did. When he is upset that Luke choose what he thought was suicide over joining him it was obvious that Vader was distraught. I don't think that Vader would have been that distraught over Luke if Luke was only a means to overthrowing the emperor. I think that for a while Vader was capable of overthrowing the emperor but did not want to do that because that would mean turning even further to the dark side. Therefore it can be assumed that Vader cares deeply for Luke. If you care deeply for a person it becomes much for difficult to intentionally hurt them.

 

Um, did you miss the part where Luke wails on Vader like a madman, then compares Vader's stump with his own mechanical hand, looks horrified then turning off his lightsaber? That's pretty clear indication that he was starting down the path of the Dark Side.

 

that's not the same as 'using the dark side'

 

If he was using his anger and hatred for Vader to enhance his attacks - it can be. Force + Anger/Hatred = Dark Side.

 

thanks for sharing. I've already gone through this topic before

 

Palpatine comments on how Luke's "hate has made you powerful" after he wins, at least.

 

Vader would have won for sure. Luke didn't have the knowledge or power that Vader had. I think Vader would quickly go on the offensive, push Luke back to the reactor shaft and then toss him in. The fight would be over in about 30 seconds - 1 minute.

 

Yes, Vader would have won Luke without a doubt.

 

Vader definitely could win, his odds would definitely be higher than zero, I'm just not sure how much higher.

I'm not sure if he would, though. It would certainly be more competitive.

You can't really take the ROTJ duel as anything because Vader's morale was completely wrecked before it even started.

Don't forget that Vader was able to overwhelm Luke in ESB on multiple occasions. Yes, Luke does well for a neophyte, and even gets a hit in, but after that Vader just growls and overpowers him. We didn't see that Vader in ROTJ, but we might have if Vader wasn't conflicted.

Still, if I was making the odds, I'd favor Luke. Vader had the midi-chlorians, but not the brains or the conviction.

This might all be irrelevant, though. The duel might end with the destruction of the Death Star with Vader, Luke and Palpatine still inside.

 

Vader had experience on his side. Luke has only fought one person in his life with a saber and that was Vader

(unless there is a deleted scene somewhere where Luke whooped Yoda's butt and that is part of the reason "no more training do you require")

as such as it is, IF Vader had not been conflicted then his only disadvantage would have been age (but since technically he was more machine than man I doubt that really would have mattered...IN-universe anyway)

as such my bet would be Vader winning.

 

I think Vader could have ended the fight sooner. But as soon as Luke was goaded about his sister, he was 100% genuinely angry and tapping into the dark side. That's where Vader was on the back foot. Basically fighting against a younger version of himself on Mustafar.

 

I think that Vader's power came from his connection to the dark side of the Force. Vader being conflicted lessened his ability to defend himself against Luke. And when Vader had redeemed himself to become Anakin again, his complete disconnection from the dark side led to his death. This is in no way a slight on Luke or his immense power and ability, but Vader's conflict did have an impact on the outcome of the duel.

 

Luke: I feel the good in you, the conflict.

Luke: You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you'll destroy me now.

Luke: Search your feelings, Father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.

Vader: You were right. You were right about me. Tell your sister... you were right.

 

Vader in ROTJ would have killed Luke, who was still finding his true power, Luke was not as skilled as Vader, but I still think he would have put up a good fight.