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Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    And George R. Binks.
     
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  2. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 19, 2007
    So. The companion is even whiter than I'd feared.
     
  3. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    [​IMG]

    In fairness, two things:

    One, looking closely at that bottom panel, it really is possible that these are clones.

    Two, this series was SO. GOOD.
     
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  4. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 19, 2007
    Top image, grouped to the right, you can see an entire column of nonwhites.
     
  5. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    I saw them, and I disagree. Even the one I circled is debatable.
     
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  6. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 19, 2007
    Not really. The guy to his left, same distance from the "screen", is much whiter. As is the guy in front of him.
     
  7. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 29, 2005
    Well, if you look closely, second from the left in that far group, there is someone who's noticably lighter than all the others. So it's not just that they're all shaded darker over there.
     
  8. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Either way, "slightly darker" isn't the same as nonwhite. Otherwise I'd be calling both Karrde and Dorvan in the ERC nonwhite.

    End of the day, there are enough grey areas here (and at least a chance that someone went back and deliberately recolored the people we're talking about) that I'm not inclined to make a huge fuss about this series. But even an entire legion of blatantly nonwhite cadets counts for nothing when they're only seen once, off in the distance, and not play no visible role whatsoever in the on-panel action.
     
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  9. Point Given

    Point Given Manager Emeritus/2x Baseball Draft WINNA star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 12, 2006
    The circled guy looks darker than me.
     
  10. Esg

    Esg Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I concur
     
  11. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 29, 2005
    How do you know how dark PG is?
     
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  12. jedimaster203

    jedimaster203 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 1999
    How do races even work in Star Wars? Coruscanti, Corellian and other all look like standard white. Judging from Jimmy Smits, Alderanian could be slightly latino? So Saccoran/Korunnai is black? Where are star wars asians from? Funny enough, a lot of characters might be intended to be a certain ethnicity, but aren't really described in massive detail. For example, I always thought Ghent was asian. But if Zahn were to describe him as asian, it might have sounded rascist. If you establish that star was asians are from a certain planet, then you say that a character is from that planet, it will help the visulization.

    Can we get new races for humans? They don't have to conform to earth's races.
     
  13. The Loyal Imperial

    The Loyal Imperial Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 19, 2007
    Alternatively, it might just be possible for a single planet to have people with more than one skin color.
     
  14. jedimaster203

    jedimaster203 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 1999
    Its also possible for planets to have more than one type of environment, but we don't see it much in star wars :p
     
  15. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    Touché, sir. Nevertheless, the big issue with what you're saying is that it still supports the idea what whites really are the "default" type of human in the galaxy, and that all asian people must come from "the asian planet" and latinos must come from "the latino planet" - which is one step removed from just calling them aliens. But even if every human planet did tend to be predominantly one race or another (which, given past directions this conversation has gone in, is at least possible), Coruscant is supposed to be the Ellis Island of the galaxy, not "white planet number 5". So it's not sufficient to just look at all the white people on Coruscant and say, well, that's how it is.
     
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  16. jedimaster203

    jedimaster203 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 1999
    I do see what you're saying, but white IS the default race. What you or I say doesn't change that. I'm just pointing out that its hard to to describe racial characteristics in a way that is respectful and coherant. It basically boils down to having to find a way to differentiate races without perscribing earth stereotypes to them.

    That said, I'd be cool with everybody being abiguously brown :D
     
  17. beccatoria

    beccatoria Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 8, 2006
    ...but trying to change that is the entire point of this thread?
     
  18. jedimaster203

    jedimaster203 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 1999
    Well yes, what we say doesn't change it though. What we do might though.

    What I'm saying is that applying racial stereotypes doesn't help the cause of diversity in the EU, but how do you make distinct racial differences without resorting to stereotypes?
     
  19. Darth_Calgmoth

    Darth_Calgmoth Jedi Master star 2

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    Jul 7, 2006
    Realistically, we should assume that there no longer are 'racial stereotypes' among humans in the GFFA. Humanity has been confronted with the existence of non-human life eons ago. This would most certainly have triggered a sense of unity in ancient humanity, and should have led to disappearance of all the racial stereotypes. So without out some in-universe explanation about a deep-rooted racism within the human cultures of the GFFA (and I don't think we got such concept - not even the racism regime of the Pius Dea religion apparently never fought crusades against humans who look slightly different), there is simply no reason why there are mostly white males in the SW universe.
     
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  20. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004
    If they ever had any at all, humanity in the GFFA is so old they have forgotten where they come from. The Dune novels had a brilliant thing on this, where one of the characters was clearly black and had dreadlocks, but no one took it as being anything special. Just need to look up the passage.
     
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  21. jedimaster203

    jedimaster203 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 1999
    Well, they aren't necessarily stereotypes in universe. I meant stereotypes to us, like establishing a character as black because he has an afro.
     
  22. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 6, 2007
    I don't think anyone is saying that we want a character that has been described exclusivly as white to be anything but, but a lot of the discussion comes back to the art thats being produced for the franchise. Characters who previously didn't have a described skin tone seem to often end up as white, groups of characters seem to end up white, so on, so forth.

    Blond hair and blue eyes is a stereotype of a white character, but brown eyes and dark hair is not. So then why do the characters with brown eyes and dark hair still end up being drawn as white when endless other possibilites exist?

    What authors need to avoid is negative racial sterotypes, not stereotypes in general.
     
  23. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

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    Oct 23, 2004
    As far as I am concerned, a few blue eyed and blond should be made dark skinned just as well, just to make the contrast absolutely clear that these aren’t earth humans.
     
  24. Mechalich

    Mechalich Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 2, 2010
    Ah, but if you create a combination of features that has no Earthly analog, even if it consists of a composite of totally normal features, you've most likely created a near-human species rather than a new type of baseline human. The features and traits we identify with 'race' in Homo sapiens are not independently assorted, they are to greater and lesser degrees linked, you can't just randomize them in that way, it violates biology.
     
  25. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Simon Phoenix in Demolition Man was blue-eyed, blond- and dark skinned.

    So it's not like the idea hasn't been done before.

    Whether it makes sense to do it is another question entirely.