main
side
curve

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. sharkymcshark

    sharkymcshark Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2013
    On top of that, and to be honest of much less significance - but who was it actually 'fooling'? What was the element of amusing deception?

    April Fools Day.
     
  2. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    ...I think debating the actual merits of Halo is really missing the point of what's problematic about that article.

    Also, I think @Mia Mesharad really sums up the issue with that April Fool's Day "joke". I do think it was sexist, but just from a purely objective standard it is literally childish and immature, and as a way of defending that article or picture it's about the worst thing ever.
     
  3. Erik_B

    Erik_B Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Terrible.

     
  4. Skaddix

    Skaddix Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2012
    On a certain level everything has a social message attached and the more effective ones tend to be the ones that slip in without u paying attention.
     
  5. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    I just wanted to mention Marathon. :(
     
    Vthuil and Mia Mesharad like this.
  6. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004

    I totally agree with you, especially about the echo chamber, which is why II think that when people encounter stuff like this the best response is to consider what's being said (because there may well be a good point) and then calmly shut the echo chamber door and walk away.

    Because the usual response is to shout back into the echo chamber, which just generates noise, which is partly what the people in the echo chamber want. See also #cancelColbert.

    You're not going to win an argument because you're not even having the same argument as the other person, and there's nothing the echo chamber wants more than to have more echoes...if I can be forgiven for straining that metaphor to the breaking point.

    It's the academic version of "Don't feed the trolls." And is perhaps all the more tricky because at the core of it is the fact that we'd (or at least not me) wouldn't argue against LGBTQ game devs making their own thing, but there's also a whole political agenda wrapped up in there that invites agreement with that part to be agreement with the "no social merit, militarized youth, etc, etc" stuff, and when you start disagreeing with that you just end up in a Monty Python sketch.

    I love the implied logic trap that any LGBTQ gamer who plays and enjoys HALO (and I know quite a few) must be some Stockhold Syndromed traitor to the cause. Which is yet another reason it's not an honest dialogue but also one that engagement isn't going to help.

    ETA:
     
    Contessa, Vthuil and Mia Mesharad like this.
  7. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Actually, never mind.
     
  8. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    *sigh*

    Looks like I'd better get around to initiating that hostile takeover for the sake of maintaining a professional image...

    Might be one of the reasons why I've been inactive for a while (aside from family crap). It's just looking like a pointless job to try and represent a wiki that doesn't wish to be represented professionally, and yet claims that they're professional.

    The thing is, I can't really call anyone out on this without them bringing up the fact that Darth Real Life has trumped the Wook (not as if I want it to, but I will admit that the vacation is a welcome one, as it allows me to concentrate on other things.)
     
    Zeta1127 and jSarek like this.
  9. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Okay, I have no idea who that is. He may be a Wookieepedian, but he's not a name I associate with the administration. Either way, I would hope our spokesfolks would have a bit more class than that. I would likely be disappointed, but I would hope nonetheless.

    Anyway, the Breast article is one of the most ... enduringly problematic ... ones we have. It deserves to exist in the context of Wookieepedia, where we DO have articles on nearly every body part mentioned in canon, with the exceptions a result of oversight more than deliberation. (The absence of a penis article has to do with the dearth of discussion of them in canon, not a lack of will to write it up.) But the Breast article has always brought out the most obstinate and sophomoric sides in our members. I liked how, back in the day, we had a picture of Yarna d'al' Gargan as the main image - the character's lack of traditional sex appeal did much to blunt that sort of behavior. But, as Gamiel said, the current image "... is the only official SW pic that shows non-covered female breast," which makes it the most informative image there is on the topic. So I can't argue with the change. But Trak is right that it's come to be waved zealously as a rallying flag in a battle against censorship that only exists in our minds. I can only hope that, having put it on the front page, those fighting this imaginary battle feel like they've won a victory, and can rest on their laurels for a while. At the very least, any attempt to do it again can be visited with replies of "we've already done that, though."
     
  10. Rogue_Follower

    Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Not by much.
    This after @ladydarthcaedus's original Tweet.

    And even if this PaulWINland/Olioster user is not an admin or official spokesperson for the Wook, he's acting as its de facto ambassador in this context. The official Twitter account ignored @ladydarthcaedus's Tweet. Also, he created the talk page on the joke.

    EDIT: I definitely don't intend to tar all Wookieepedians and imply that they uniformly agree with this user. Just to say that the Wookieepedians that do disagree with this sort of thing weren't/aren't visible in this interaction, thus letting people like this be the public face of the wiki.
     
  11. patchworkz7

    patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Paul Winland
    @PaulWINland
    I'm Paul and I'm white and nerdy. Lord of Painting articles at Wookieepedia. Hater of professional victims and SJWs.

    I'm not sure what "Painting articles" are, but I have this weird feeling he's not exactly a progressive sort of fellow.

    And I hate the "well, edit us!" response, because two seconds after it'll just be edited back, and at best an edit war happens, and the end result is that it maybe gets locked. As R_F said; right now he's the one taking point on the issue and coming off fairly badly while I'm sure someone looking in would assume he has a position of authority. And I'm not naive enough to believe that Wikis are even playing fields where everyone has an equal voice.

    ETA: I'm really not sure how that art is considered "canon"...is it just because it was in an LFL publication? It's a publication that was "art inspired by SW", right? Well, regardless, I guess it does fit whatever definition of canon, but it sounds like letter of the law trumping spirit.

    I like boobs, and I have nothing against an artistic nude, but there are plenty of places to see fanart that has bare twi'lek boobs. There's no real reason for the breasts to be bare other than the "tee-hee!" factor, which is beneath what I think it a really fine, important website. Shame, and it's a shame that the response couldn't have at least been; "Yeah, it was rather childish, we thought it part of the charm of the joke but we understand your concerns" instead of mocking and deflecting it onto "Why do you hate boobies?!?" If not from this Paul guy than at least from the official account.
     
  12. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    What an unpleasant-sounding person. There are lots of things I hate but I wouldn't want them to be the first thing anyone knew about me.
     
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Visions, I thought, was very much official but not canon? Not that it very much matters either way; the debate is emphatically not whether Secura ever lounged about in an open kimono, but whether the Wook's antics and its responses were appropriate (and secondarily whether the page belongs at all.)

    I mean, I can understand the arguments jSarek presented for the page's existence. I can understand though I disagree. But I feel like the AFD shenanigans sort of laid bare the real reason the page is there, and it's telling. At the very least it undermines what legitimate case existed.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
    Mia Mesharad and patchworkz7 like this.
  14. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    The thing that actually kills me about all this is that "Wookieepedia Pro" was ****ing genius. They should've just stuck with that.

    PS - Jello, your new avatar reminds me of Sauron.
     
    jcgoble3, Revanfan1 and TrakNar like this.
  15. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's supposed to be a jewel -- the symbol of the Empire from TES :p


    Suppose that's not the worst thing an avatar of mine was mistaken for, though.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  16. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Nor is it the worst thing that avatar could be mistaken for. ;)
     
    Revanfan1 and Mia Mesharad like this.
  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's entirely possible we're thinking of the same thing, since what I refer to was an avatar of a BSG admiral's insignia which looks not too dissimilar. I was discussing a school project with someone over IM, and she asked "is your icon....?"

    It was a little weird.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  18. Findswoman

    Findswoman The Tol Fanfic Mod (in Pink) star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2014
    To me it looks mostly like a rather squashed baseball diamond. But still a handsome squashed baseball diamond.
     
  19. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
  20. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
  21. Darth_Garak

    Darth_Garak Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    In all honesty the Emperor's Will medal is nice looking .... and I've gotten to associate it with you. Btw since you went with an Empire symbol (though the Amulet of Kings is ok) why didn't you go for the Imperial Dragon one? Or do you think most people will think of Skyrim instead of the Empire when they see it?
     
  22. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah, I've come to associate it with my own posts as well. It's funny how that works with symbols as well as icons of faces. That's one of the biggest reasons to stick with it.

    Went with this one because of ESO and its launch, it's the symbol used by Reman and Alessia. The dragon is far more recognizable I think (and I quite like the stained glass version, though I've also made a version of the Skyrim logo with great transparency) but dioesnt fit the era.

    But icons of symbols should be evocative. If nobody recognizes this one, it's failed and I might consider changing it when I get home.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.

    Edit: on topic, that's a great piece Merc. Once in a while the Onion has a point to its satire. :p

    Though I should note that unrealistic standards of female beauty also plague females too, in the effort to try and meet them.
     
  23. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    I recognized it.
     
  24. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    I thought it was just a stylized diamond used because it was simple, elegant, refined, and just plain looked neat. What better reason to use it than because it looked neat/pretty/funny? It's why elsewhere I have a dancing Drowzee avatar, despite Mewtwo being my favorite Pokemon. If this forum allowed for animated gifs as avatars, I'd use the avatar here just to show that I got da moves like Drowzee, I got da moves like Drowzee, I got da mooooOOOOOOooves like Drowzee.

    Back on topic sort of...

    When I helped man the booth at CVI, I gave myself the title of Official Boobs of Wookieepedia. I was one of the very few female admins, very few active female members, and only female member to be a public representative of the site. At the time, it was just a joking title. I was in a goofy mood, and thus acted accordingly. But, I still took my position as a public representative seriously. I have fun with it, but it's still a serious job.

    Though, last night, I actually began to question it. AFD means I have to work harder outside of the Wook. Much harder. I have to salvage our brand recognition and promote a better, more professional brand image. This is more than editing, more than protecting, more than blocking, more than lurking on RC for hours and watching all those anons while going from random page to random page to clean up syntax errors.

    The Wook, many (on the Wook itself) fail to realize, is more than a wiki. It is a community with a public reputation, and it's not a good one. Many fail to realize that this needs to be changed. Many fail to realize that this is actually something that the Wook needs to concern itself with, and it feels like sometimes that I'm the only person who actually gives a damn. Maintaining a professional image for a professional entity is a big job that no one wants to do. I don't want to do it, but I do it because someone has to do it! Don't make my job even harder by making a complete fool of yourself!

    I want to distance myself from the Wook until things blow over, but I can't. Someone needs to clean up the latest mess.

    In regards to unrealistic standards of beauty... It's one of the reasons I don't bother with shopping in the women's section. The clothes suck and don't fit right. The colors are garish. The pants ride up. The shoes are too narrow (I have wide feet at an awkward size that is too big for women's shoes and too small for men's). Nothing is comfortable unless you want to look frumpy.
     
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Simple, elegant, and refined are three words I quite like -- though ordinarily I prefer avatars to express/symbolize things, as I think that's what they're for. Neat looking things I save for phone or computer wallpapers, as those are mostly to be looked at. Although even then, I'd probably rather have a picture of Mount Olympus than some random thing in Alaska if both pictures looked reasonably equally wonderful. So with that in mind, I think I'll go back to the Emperor's Will -- it seems more definitively regal.

    re: the Wook, I was just telling someone about this little scandal and while googling for the article, I also found this article: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Brassiere (really? REALLY?)

    Anyway, that sucks. But I admire your resolve to stick it out and try to make the community realize that it's mainstream now. That especially in the days of Disney and the ST, more and more people will be looking at the Wook and that it has a heightened duty in that regard: it's going to be a public entity in a way that even TOS won't be, and since everyone knows it's run by fans, it's going to reflect on the larger fandom outside the Wook too. Especially to casual fans, or the media. It's absolutely incumbent on the Wook to maintain those high standards.

    And I for one am glad that at least someone there knows that. You've got experience and I imagine a reputation there too. You're in a better position than most of us to do something about it, so good for you!