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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Which cahracters are we talking about here?
     
  2. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Nyx from the original Ahsoka Walkabout animatics.
     
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  3. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 25, 2017
    The Asian character Nyx Okami and two white sisters.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  4. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 10, 2017
    I liked your post better when you said they'd probably make the characters latino to "cover up their racism".
     
  5. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 25, 2017
    I'll wait until it happens.
     
  6. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 24, 2013
    Well I never thought I'd ever have to ask this but... does diversity nowadays mean everything except blonde or red hair is good for Star Wars???

    Turning the scale to the other side is good but keeping it there is not. We need equal use of all colors. SW is dominated by brown hair way too much. That is white skin + brown hair. Nothing against all the other variations that feature brown hair color.

    PS: I ask this cause I noted in twitter how blonde/redblond cosplayers felt underrepresented by SW characters in new canon
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  7. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    It was a joke on these boards, during Legends that there were just so many redheaded characters.
     
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  8. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    As the blonde-haired originator of this thread I got enough representation on TCW Mandalore to last me the rest of my life.

    Trace and Rafa are super not white. How the scales balance between one Asian man and two WOC (not to mention the lingering possibility of queer rep) I will leave for others to address.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  9. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 25, 2017
    I know 100% Europeans who look exactly like they do. Skin tone and all.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  10. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Can I ask where you’re from yourself? Something that’s come up often in this thread is “whiteness” having pretty different definitions in American versus European versus South American culture—to which all I can say is that their skin tone, combined with their hair styles and the last name “Martez” seems to my American-white-guy POV very strongly coded as Latina. Whether Latina = “white” is something I’ve seen differing opinions on, but when you factor in the privileges that come with whiteness in the US I think most people here would say no.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  11. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 25, 2017
    [Removed at user's request]

    On the privileged idea, the Irish used to be a disliked and discriminated group. They were forced to assimilate into American norms, while pieces of their culture remained.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2019
  12. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    So if the creators' intention was for these characters to be Latina, what more would you want them to have done to make that clearer?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  13. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 25, 2017
    The hair and makeup for one, they simply blend into the modern trendy crowd.
     
  14. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

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    Dec 16, 2012
    Maybe Spanish or Portugese accents?
     
  15. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 25, 2017
    Why exactly?
     
  16. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    Latinx isn't a race. It's a collection of ethnicities and cultural backgrounds, populated by people from all sorts of racial and ethnic backgrounds themselves. So two characters who are meant to "look Latina" only "look European" because lots of Latinas can trace their heritage to Europe and "looking Latinx" isn't something very easy to pin down.

    The idea of Latinx characters in Star Wars really highlights, I feel, the difficulty of discussing race in Star Wars, where real world history and geography is useless to us in identifying what characters "are."
     
  17. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 24, 2013
    Well if they are saving them for something special it better be that Old Republic trilogy I want by the Game of Thrones guys... saving all the redheads for that era would be interesting and give it a unique look, especially when proportions of color usage are different than in the real world where red is rare. though I begin to doubt it is. Statistics say so but I see and live in regions where red is like more common than most others. Certain parts of Europe that is, not Ireland though I wish I'd live there.

    Well the classifications are nice but too often fail. Just look at Enfys Nest's actress who was mistaken for white despite being a bright black with red hair. Same difficulties arise with Latinas as you mentioned, even asians etc. and mixed race makes it even more complex. Or when mixes are few generations back. We are all humans. Haircolor is easier to be classified or debated than skin and race in my opinion.

    I by now am sick of all the race talk in media and social media as if that makes it any more fair and right representation wise. People are whoever they are, no matter if they call themselves asian, latina or white or black or else. Its all a blurry spectrum anyway. One should not keep the classifications that separate us and lead to discrimination and unequal representation in the first place but throw them out and all be human and oneselves. Or else it ends like feminism that wanted equality and turned into female superiorty movements in some places. (Not generalizing here, just noticing trends in some groups)

    Another example from Europe:

    World War 2 redrew some maps and boarders. Many people displaced from formerly East-Germany / Modern Poland moved/fled to western parts of Germany. Other locales switched from original nationality to russian. Or in recent history the maps got redrawn by other conflicts as well in some regions. So are these people now german, polish, russian? What which clichés and prejudices come with these nationality associations? Are they allowed to choose what they feel like being?

    In the same vein, some folks are proud to be descended of two different cultures/nationalities. Actors especially be it irish and russian, french and spanish or whatever combination. Heck some even are proud and use their heritage of parental origin despite being born in neither but a third location, moving around raised in a fourth and so on. Dialect, language coloration etc. being different alltogether again. Like many US actors of foreign descent give themselves an interesting mixed set of past cultural influences given US alone is a mix of cultures not as iconic as the "old countries". Though from european pov I see the US as quite iconic on its own already too. How many generations back or how much percentage asian, black or else do you have to be to count among them? Does it count that you feel you belong or is it a numbers game? Feels too Third Reich racial laws against Jews and else to me sadly.

    I have friends in spain that are white skinned and blonde, black skinned folks in scandinavia i know and people descended from india in the UK, even redheads with no irish ancestors whatsoever. A lot of discussions still use distinctions that are outdated I think in this modern mixed up world. They are nice and useful in some discussions but distract and miss the point in many others. In big cities I see white kids raised amongst lots of foreign families in the neighborhood and schools adopting language bits and mannerisms from said cultures, even forming new subcultures. The US has white kids that are acting more black than dark skinned folks themselves in New York and Germany has germans behaving like turkish and other cultures that live among them.

    Even names, as you said with your Marquez example, are no longer a clear indicator. People give their kid foreign names because of cool meanings, and even last names exist long enough to no longer indicate place or culture of origin except in distant past. The world has changed with faster travel, open boarders, love across great distances, the internet and so on. And yet people cling to the old clichés and classifications, feel forced to sort themselves into them and be proud of them least they be underrepresented and forgotten. Like with sexuality and LGBTQ+ movements, we need more classifications and new ones to fit the modern world, not force all into the old system.

    We are far beyond the point where it is all black and white.

    These are only some indicators used in discussions to classify people... and any and each of them can differ from others. In the past folks were rather homogenous. They lived in a village, married in the village, died in the village. Now they move around and are a mix of influences.

    -Skin color
    -Hair color
    -Place of Birth
    -Place(s) of being raised / having lived
    -First Name meaning and origin
    -Last Name meaning and origin
    -Origins of the parents and grandparents etc. generations
    -Cultural and religious norms and ethics be it selftaught, taught etc.
    -Peergroup be it related like family or unrelated like friends and their cultural identifiers
    -Personal identification with any groups, cultures, etc.
    -Prefered music styles
    -Hairstyle
    -if you want to go into more details, add: Age/year of birth/Era of birth, sexuality LGBTQ+, etc.
    -...


    I'd love to see folks create a table of sw characters and fill in their attributes. Different fans would get different results projecting their own interpretations of source material.

    We are more than the sum of our parts ;)
     
  18. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Representation is important, and unless we keep talking about it we won't get it.

    Representation - and talking about it - gets us closer to a world that doesn't place any real importance on race, not farther away.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  19. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    It is a two edged sword, it is needed as you say but also dangerous if it turns the other way. In most cases though it is as you say. I just wish representation etc. would not be used for marketing purposes or to be a cool modern company and instead focus on the real problems. Companies only use it for marketing and reaching a new group of paying people they target with including such representative characters. Remember all the lip service of "hey we added 1 LGBT+ character to our movie... fans expect major character to be revealed as gay or else... it turns out unnamed background dude is it though whose sexuality is not even adressed in the movie at all but only known thx to an obscure filmmaker interivew on a website that got looted for marketing purposes".

    Representation has to flow naturally, not be forced in, exploited etc.

    Even in non-media companies, representation like women quotas and other such quotas are used as something special to be proud of ("Hey look we increased our women quota this year.. now its only 95% males left"), while it should not be special. As long as it is treated like special, it separates and does not unify.

    The problem is not the talk about representation. The problem is what companies, etc. do with it and how they exploit it luring people into fake sense of being represented while they actually are used and exploited for more money due to their special status and statistics.

    I am remembered of Kindergarten. Kids of all colors and languages playing along naturally with each other until taught "these and those are different"... "Oh I hadn't noticed before!" and ever since they see separation afterwards. Teach them to be proud to be different and they will never grow back together. Before kindergarten was just that, different kids together. Now they strife to be integrative kindergarten models with special places reserved for people with foreign background or other differences needing special attention. They are not good enough for parents or state if they are just normal kindergardens but need special status and qualifications. I love integrative models there, using them for my own kids due to disabilities. But the kids grow and play together naturally until told and taught there is a difference, a boarder.

    We have to unlearn what we learned. Not reinforce it.

    Groups that felt discrimination retreat into their own subcultures instead of integrating themselves, reinforce their own cultures and thus broadening the cultural rift. Pride is worn as defense and to raise selfworth after being hurt and excluded. This in return turns the separated groups into a numbers game of equality rather than one of true integration and communion. True coexistance that preserves cultural identities as well as merging the larger groups into a united society.

    There even are many nice paralells that lift this topic out of heated discussions of color, race and sexuality or religion but showcase the same issues with other differentiating marks. Comedians as well as socially critical tv formats have given us nice paralells with people divided not by the above markers but by IQ, by age or even by their preference of music, tv or food. Seeing the same topic with fresh eyes and different markers was not only fun but informative and showed the real underlying problems aside race, color etc.
     
  20. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2017
    Thing is women are just naturally inclined to work in different fields. It's the first thing that happens when women have every choice available to them.
     
  21. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Yeah... it was an authorial tactic used to make a (usually female) character exotic that ended up becoming a lazy and tired fallback way too quickly.

    Not in 100% of cases --- Azlyn, for example, seemed like she just kind of happened to be a redhead. But there was definitely a template of which Mara was the progenitor.

    And as a ginger, I personally bemoaned that nearly all the redheads were daywalkers instead of freckle faces. Starships and space stations would be ideal habitats for people like me, dammit! SW is perfect for us!

    (But in all seriousness I'm the whitest of white guys and I'm not gonna pretend that I'm underrepresented because the characters who look like me don't have little dots on their faces)
     
  22. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    There is no "other way" for it to turn, though. There's nothing about wanting better/more diverse representation that implies nefarious intent or that certain people should get worse/less representation.
    I agree with this, but...
    ...not with this, because the idea of "forced" representation implies spaces where certain people shouldn't be. I'm Latino - but I'm not Latino for a "reason," I was just born that way, and I am Latino in every space I occupy, but I'm also whatever else I am that brought me there.

    A world where race doesn't matter is a world where it's not implausible for anyone to be part of any story. That means the idea of a world where race doesn't matter is incompatible with the idea that diversity is "forced."
    And this is the problem I was talking about before - it "should not be special," but initiatives to hire more women are necessary given the current state of things. Hiring more women, recognizing their achievements and abilities, and normalizing their presence in heretofore male-dominated spaces will make it so that one day it isn't special. It's just...life. So while I agree that companies often aren't doing a good job of enacting diversity or executing policies for inclusion, I think "as long as it is treated special, it separated and does not unify" is misguided.
    But the solution can't be to just not worry about diversity.
    Insulating a kindergarten class will not, unfortunately, undo the work of hundreds of years of colonialist ideas about race influencing and shaping society. Not on its own, at least. Bigotry has tangible effects on the world we live in, and just ignoring it won't make it go away.
    We have to undo what we have done. We have to dismantle what we have built.
    Hoo boy.
    When have women lived in a world where they've had every choice available to them?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  23. Jeff_Ferguson

    Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 15, 2006
    Matt's right on the money --- a society built on colonialist ideas can't simply have its unfortunate realities wished away after hundreds of years of culturally ingrained racism, sexism, and bigotry. Acknowledgement is not just important; it's essential, as are initiatives to welcome and promote more diversity. "Race talk" is a discussion that we need to keep having, and the voices of those who have traditionally been underrepresented and discriminated against are voices that we need to keep hearing. Positive change requires work.

    I think your heart is in the right place, but this is absolutely not the way to go. The kind of attitude that can easily lead to "Who cares if everyone in movies is white? We're all human! Maybe you're the racist for seeing race in the first place!" Yeah... nah.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  24. Jesta'

    Jesta' Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 25, 2017
    Last time I checked the Turks and Romans haven't given any apologies to the territories they forcefully conquered. In fact their culture and presence is largely celebrated.
     
  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Turks =/= Ottomans.

    Italians =/= Romans.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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