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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Ignorance is Bias: The Diversity Manifesto

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Not having spaces between "Stevenson" and "Lesbian" makes that sentence read very odd.
     
  2. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well I can't edit it now so it's stuck....You will take my grammatically wrong sentence and like it mister ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2020
  3. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    It's actually very simple (aside from the fact that these art styles are not objectively "bad" or "kiddie"): the characters aren't just signified by the art style, but also the writing. Just to take the example of Amphibia, Ann looks like she looks and when the show starts the viewer most likely doesn't know her ethnicity, but as it goes along, things that she says and does indicate, and in fact it's eventually specifically said, that she's of Thai descent, and aspects of that heritage inform her character. (Interestingly the newer character of Marcy appears to be East Asian but as far as I know her ethnicity hasn't been stated yet; I assume it'll be done much as it was with Ann.)

    I'm not sure why you wouldn't assume that this is exactly how it's done -- through writing (and to a lesser extent VA performances) --unless you're assuming that the writing and narratives on these shows are a lot less sophisticated than they are. These aren't Scooby Doo same-plot-every-time shows, and that's why the "simplified" art styles can't be understood as exclusively "kiddie" any more. Not that they ever really could; sophisticated storytelling and satire with stylized art has been a thing for, like, ever.
     
  4. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Speaking of VA performances another thing to give Kudo's to the Owl House via this video



    (And I swear I NEEEED Amity to speak Spanish to Luz and profess her love to her [face_love])

    @FiveFireRings

    Well her full name is Marcy Wu if that gives us any indication.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2020
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  5. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Sorry for the DP but to add again to the whole "Kiddie Show" narrative the latest episode of Amphibia had a pretty heartfelt moment, not the darkest thing I've seen in a "Kiddie Show" per say but given Amphibia is probably the show at the time that scews the youngest it's pretty emotional

     
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  6. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Totally forgot that, thanks! And I don't recall when that was revealed but Marcy's basic character design has existed since the series started so details have been sort of offered forward as the show progressed. Also, she's totally great.
     
  7. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Marcy full name was revealed at the end of her first appearance in season 2

     
  8. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999


    Well this looks like a pretty big deal.

     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  9. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2016
    I hope they actually show that in the game and don't leave it as a little detail in a website blurb.
     
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Posting the series review below here, as well as in the Amph Comics thread, as it covers a whole lot of the ground we discuss here in some quite interesting ways. I've tried to keep the review non-spoiler for the most part but if people want those, they can be supplied.

    The Wicked + The Divine

    The last long-form read I did, well, it didn't go too well. Was this better than Black Science? It isn't the out-right failure that that story ended up as, yet I'm not entirely certain what to make of it, but there's aspects and elements I like a great deal.

    This could be considered the final, extensive statement by Hipster Gillen, a style that he used that irritated some with its 'cooler than thou' tendencies, but I can't say it had that effect on me. There's some very clever meditations on the nature of identity, perception and power in this tale. Gillen also makes some bold calls too - from the ****ing Tara single issue examination of social media; to the mutually destructive relationship of Morrigan and Baphomet, but one where, up until the end, Morrigan is the lead abuser of the two; to the unveiling of Dionysus' asexuality, but not aromatic nature; to Laura's arc, with its self-hatred and how she finds her way out of it; to Baal's messiah complex; Cass' trans identity and a vengeful parent - none of these are easy cards to play. All are areas of sensitive subject matter, but ones that the story explores well.

    And then there's McKelvie. There's occasional other artists in here, support acts as it were, but, while their skills aren't in question, it's McKelvie that is the main draw and his art always elevates Gillen's stories. Gillen's worked with other artists, but there's that indefinable something special about his work with McKelvie. This is probably the best example of it, but Young Avengers will give it some good competition.

    Things that don't work that well for me is the character of Cass. Gillen clearly loves the character, but she doesn't work as well for me, probably because I've seen people a bit too much like her, with all the edge without any awareness. That I have to give Gillen credit for, Cass realising at the end exactly how she got manipulated when she had thought herself beyond being so.

    There's elements of Phonogram here too - all we have is what we have here, it's all we get, so stop being such a bunch of *****, hmm? Like with that story's concept of Retromancers, the idea of the old wishing to control and constrain the new is explored in all kinds of ways, with the general idea being that the flaw lies in trying to control it at all. You want to stay young? Go with the flow.

    One idea that has come to the fore in the last year or so, it may have been there earlier, but I didn't spot it, is that of authenticity with regard to personality. People tend to have versions of their personality - the one for at home, at work, with family, with partner, the authenticity idea challenges the idea that all of these have to be separate and distinct, which in turn challenges all those existing relationships and how they work. What would it mean to be more open in the workplace of your own nature? Could you trust people will respond in the right way? What if they did? What if you didn't feel you have to misdirect people away from an aspect? What might you instead do with the time and energy you have from not doing that? And this may also be why I am indeterminate in my view of this story, there's stuff here that really does talk to me; I know some of the reasons for not, but not all of them, not entirely.

    One thing I do know is this really benefitted from being read as one single long story and not spread out over four years.
     
  11. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    The Harley Quinn show got renewed for a Third Season. I know a lot of folks like that.

    and funny enough that show's BIG MOMENT happened the same day She-Ra's BIG MOMENT occurred.

    (She-Ra's was a bit more impressive but I digress and don't wanna take away from the people who enjoy the Harley Quinn show)
     
  12. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I read WicDiv monthly over four years and it was definitely hard to follow at times. The nice thing about Gillen is he can be enjoyable even when I don't totally get what's going on.
     
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  13. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    The latest episode of Big City Greens had a good shout out to Sign language this week,...Just thought I bring that up since that's neat. Plus Dragon Prince had a major character who signs so that's something.



    Also to go back to the topic of Character design for a moment is that cartoons while simple are trying they're best to show that we have a WHOLE ARRAY of body types out there. She-Ra of course being a good example considering how well they've done updating the designs of the classic show to the modern era in that everyone doesn't have the same body type and doesn't look like they have the same face.
     
  14. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Sorry for the double post but I wanted to go back to something @CooperTFN mentioned earlier and maybe had something to weigh in on.

    But I do wonder why we've seen the trend of many of the Showrunners for thee animated show be a lot younger and at youngest...late twenties...I mean they are around my age and hence why these shows definitely feel more for millennials.

    Like Amphibia
    She-Ra
    Big City Greens
    Kipo
    Owl House

    these do feel like shows that do a pretty decent job connecting to their millennial audience. These are the millennial generations cartoon.

    IDK just curious...I'm not complaining obviously.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2020
  15. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2003
    I'm going to be honest, the new Carmen Sandiego show on Netflix has been a guilty millennial pleasure of mine for a while now. That show is super diverse and does an excellent job appreciating cultural diversity without falling too far into the stereotype trap (it does a little, which is sometimes unavoidable, but when they do they usually make a point to call it out).

    (I know I know, I need to get back to She-Ra! That was my Covid plan but I've had no free time the last few months!)
     
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  16. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Uh... "Defiantly" is certainly an accurate description of how I feel one should react to the "f o r c e d diversity" idiots who often crawl out of the woodwork in reaction to these things, but the word you're looking for is definitely. No "A".

    (I know, I know, but I feel like I've seen this multiple places lately and I can't let it go.)
     
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  17. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I type these things fast so spell check isn't top priority ;p

    I should try Carmen Sandiego I see it everywhere and I have yet to watch it

    (And yes ...You should get back to She-Ra ;))
     
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  18. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013

    Wait what, new Carmen Sandiego???? I loved the old... epic Netflix fail to not recommend it to me! Aaand I will catch up!
     
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  19. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Carmen Sandiego is a lark compared to some of these shows, but I do like it. It's very charming.
     
  20. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    I sorta love how She-Ra 2018 took essentially what Star Wars did with something like Force Awakens and perfected it, essentially take a property from the 80's and modernize it for general sensibilities.

    Not saying Force Awakens led to She-Ra getting green lit (Although I do know it was pitched in 2015) but that and probably something like Legends of Korra were defiantly influencing the decisions.

    In fact it's funny how Avatar was influenced by Star Wars then when it did it's sequel it added a female heroine.

    Anyway I hope that more 80's properties get updated with diverse behind the scenes creators and maybe we could get something really special out of those IP's.
     
  21. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013

    Which other 80s properties are you thinking about then?

    Quite some tried a comeback with movie remakes and failed to get sequels after the one shot. Animated forms or tv live action seem to be successful.Even for complicated book to tv adaptions netflix and HBO but also others by now excell in. I recently saw Brave New World's tv adaption with Alden "Han" staring and quite liked it.

    Heck, what they really should bring back and revive are all the eco/climate/save-nature and the planet animated shows kids got in late 80s early 90s! Cpt Future? Cpt Planet? Climate crisis and human stupidity need such shows more than ever now... even more than all the political correctness and gender stuff that finds makers faster than those topics do.

    But we probably get a Dora the Explorer teenage crossover with Indiana Jones before any of that happens...

    And more serious... I want the Care Bears back! I got so many ideas for new care bears befitting our modern times!


    On an unrelated sidenote: How many years till american soap operas that are 80s or older in origin turn into scifi shows with the family drama taking place in space? There are quite some longrunning shows where everyone married and had kids with everyone else by now that my relatives used to watch.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2020
  22. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    @ColeFardreamer

    Well I know in terms of 80's properties I wanna see tried again with a full She-Ra reboot experience



    I meant it worked for Duck Tales so...Honestly ..yeah.
     
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  23. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    This thread has really gone places the last month or so.
     
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  24. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    Well with animation going the way it's going I wanted to put a spotlight on probably one of the biggest positive places were representation is having a good time because if we are true to our word on wanting more representation in things then I believe we should support it.

    And sadly animation is always overlooked in general as a place for really really, REEEEEEEEALLLLLY good storytelling especially as of late.

    I mean sure we have a lot of a ways to go for sure...BUT....I think we gotta give animation a lot of dues, because it's defiantly been the place to be for quite some time now.

    Plus I sorta love the notion of these old animated series from the 80's becoming these revolutionary progressive stories now...It's hilarious and ironic and I hope to see more IP's go this route and do even better moving forward.


    Also still shocked every day that after She-Ra ended THIS was on the Netflix page...Still so happy about that.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2020
  25. Senpezeco

    Senpezeco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Not to say the expanded discussion around animation isn't important (it very much is) but I do wish this thread refocused more on diversity *in SW* instead of in general entertainment + other fandoms [face_worried] Or when it is discussed, to include more explicit comparisons and contrasts between it and SW media. Not trying to be a wet blanket; I just haven't seen the other shows recently discussed and either don't have the time or the subscriptions to watch enough to be able to engage with recent posts here.

    ________

    Question: I have some ideas and drafted posts for a possible discussion topic but I would like feedback on whether (a) this is the appropriate thread for them; and (b) even if it is, whether the topic is interesting enough for y'all's engagement.

    The topic: I would like to showcase different body types, weights, and musculatures seen in human and humanoid SW characters. (I would focus mostly on my preferred medium, comics, but would appreciate examples from and discussion of representations in live action SW, animated SW, etc. too!)

    Why I'm considering it: On a personal level, I'm anorexic and underweight and used to be an exercise instructor and overall just pay way too much nervous attention to these kinds of things. But on a discussion level, it could tie into broader topics like the body positivity and body neutrality movements, 'Instagram vs. reality' comparisons and Photoshopping/editing (of both celebrities and the everyperson on social media), the diet and fitness industries, and things of that nature. Also, I'd just like to hear how often you feel like you or someone like you is physically depicted in SW. (Branching a bit, I'd also like this last line to include conversations around disabilities, illnesses, and other medical conditions, whether visible or invisible.)

    A few examples: Not only depicting the petite hourglass form for women, but (for example) tall, strong builds like that of Pash Davane (image). And not only the brawny, V-shaped Mr. Universe form for men, but overweight, underweight, short, tall, lanky, stout -- builds that aren't just the 'classic' low body fat percentage, muscular comic book superhero look that was so common across so many male characters from, say, the '70s/'80s Marvel SW run.

    Again, why I'm asking: Would this interest anyone here? And is this the appropriate thread for it? Or is this idea not really a good fit? Thanks, all. (Or have we already discussed this thoroughly and I missed it?! I honestly can't remember if I've read every page of this thread or just jumped into the middle of it years ago.)