Discussion in 'Community' started by vin, Oct 30, 2017.
And here I was think it was just that damned Romulan ale.
I haven't found it depressing at all, I've found it inspiring that so many have felt empowered to speak out, and I don't care who gets rightfully destroyed for their behavior. I already knew this kind of thing was very common, so there haven't been any depressing surprises, only joy that those who have been victimized have been empowered to seek justice.
What's bad, we already knew, it already existed. Nothing bad added. There is only good in this.
On one greater plus side, all of these vacancies in Hollywood surely mean a resurgence and second coming of the One True God? So the prophecy says.
Well, I've never held celebrities up as heroes or anything like that, so it isn't depressing to me in that way, ie. "Kevin Spacey was a personal hero of mine and I thought he was virtuous." But the sad part is all the great work that's been tarnished. As someone who really values art, it's sad that, to continue to use Spacey as an example, it's going to be a long time until I can watch LA Confidential or American Beauty again. I mean, I'll be able to do so eventually; I do think its important to separate the art from the artist and as time passes, the truly great art will still endure despite the horrible things done by the creators of it. But it's sad that things like this have to impact the art in anyway at all.
I am not, I should clarify, blaming the victims in this at all. It isn't the fault of the people Spacey victimized that this is happening; his accusers haven't ruined Spacey's movies for me briefly. He's the one who did the deed; to the degree that his legacy as an artist is tarnished, it's absolutely his fault which, I think, makes it a little bit OK to be mad about it. I mean, so I can't watch LA Confidential for a few years; that's nothing compared to the damage he did to those he actually preyed on. But as someone divorced from the situation who loves art, it is a negative aspect of the whole ugly ordeal. Again, an aspect Spacey himself created; his victims shouldn't even consider his artistic work as part of the story - they need to come forward with the ugly things he did to them and damn everything else. But among all the other people and things he betrayed, it is its own kind of sadness that he also betrayed the art itself.
I just don't really have that problem, per se... something like Louis CK's standup schtick -- where he sort of obliquely talks about the stuff he's doing as bad and then he was out there doing it -- would probably be out of bounds... but there's very little of Kevin Spacey's work (American Beauty aside) that would probably fall into that. I understand why people don't watch Woody Allen's stuff on that basis as well.
But Bill Cosby Himself is still one of the greatest stand-up routines of all time, and his decades of awfulness doesn't detract from that, in my opinion. Same with a lot of the other folks, though the most recent one to stun me a bit is the DC TV guy... since Supergirl is such a unabashedly feminist show, and everyone on that show appears to a) share those values and b) be close-knit enough that if this happened and they saw it I'd be surprised...
Yeah, I'm not saying that it's the right thing to do to not watch an actor's work because of their personal life. In the long run, in terms of artistry, I don't think it is, though I understand people making that decision. But what I was getting at in terms of me not watching Spacey's stuff is that, just for right now, I would have an unpleasant emotional reaction just to seeing him because of what I now know. As you say, a great performance is a great performance at the end of the day, and that's why I will doubtless be able to appreciate his work later. But just right now it's not even about a philosophical or moral problem I have with watching stuff he's done; it's just a purely emotional one. Polanski is a good example; enough time has passed in my life since I heard that whole story that I can appreciate a movie like Chinatown without any problems at all. I'm sure the same will happen with Spacey and Cosby and any number of other that are in the public light right now. But right now the emotional reaction is still a bit too strong for me.
It's not the celebrities being outed as sex offenders that I find depressing, but rather that so many people, supposedly powerful, confident people, evidently didn't feel able to speak out because the problem was so endemic to the industry.
As a rule I tend to assume all actors are ********* anyway, to some degee or another.
The thing about George Takei is making me sad. I took a lot of comfort in his FB posts after last year's election, and I'd come to feel fond of him. I suppose that's what you get from feeling you know someone you've never met.
We're just not ready for mass entertainment. We haven't yet evolved to deal with it. Sure, we evolved to invent it, but our brains are probably still wired to think that if you see someone, they're close.
2016- Kill all the celebrities
2017 - Hold my beer
I don't know that I want to know what 2018 has in store.
Cosby's "Himself" should never have existed, because he should have been in prison by the time he made it. Likewise for Spacy and "American Beauty." The harder part is what to make of all the people involved in films and shows and so on that are completely fine and are just doing their jobs. Without those people, creative endeavors rarely happen (outside of individual artists that work on their own). "Himself" is easy, because it's mostly just Cosby, and I'll certainly never watch it again.
Remember, and I feel like this can't be overstated or said too many times-- much of the work that is now "tainted" should never have existed at all in the form we know it. If they made it before they committed crimes, that's one thing, of course ("Chinatown", for instance). Otherwise, there almost certainly should have been someone else in their place. There are so many artists and production people who should have had their chances and didn't because men like Spacey and Cosby and countless others stepped in front of and sometimes over them.
You can't make films or TV shows or much else in a collaborative sense from prison, and once you've been in prison (particularly for sex-related offenses), it's a lot harder to get hired on. It happens, but unless you're already famous or have strong connections, it's really hard.
George Takei says it didn't happen
I think there's great value in discarding "works of art".
I've ditched the Cosby albums. The James Brown albums. This morning I heaved a sigh and deleted Louis CK's Horace And Pete, which I loved, and I have only seen half of it. I though he was one of the best standup comedians, I loved his shows; deleted them. I'll never watch any of it again.
And if all entertainers turn out to be sexual predators, burn all of entertainment to the ground.
I predict that we will see a drunken Taylor Swift getting arrested whilst decked out in S&M gear, pissing all over herself and screaming racist and anti-Semitic obscenities that would make even Mel Gibson blush.
I hate to break it to you, SuperWatto but Hollywood was likely even worse in the past. Many studio bosses like Louis B. Meyer had reputations for being "womanizers," for example.
I'm not going to advocate outright "separating the art from the artist." But it doesn't take much digging to realize just how many authors, composers, musicians, painters, actors, and those who worked on the business side from the past had regressive attitudes and engaged in sexual misconduct. It was just more acceptable or even the norm. It's one thing if the person has an active career. Fine, burn your CDs or whatever. But James Brown? The man's dead. He's not benefiting from his work anymore.
Also, Josh's reductive take would indicate anyone who killed themselves from their demons and it massively influenced their work we should ignore as well. Think of how much even just in the last 30 years we'd lose from that... if we got those poor people help, we wouldn't have their art either?
I don't begrudge people their own choices in choosing to ignore art from artists that are problematic, but Guy's pretty much correct in that we'd basically be throwing everything ever made out...
I don't need to get back at them, I don't know these people. I just don't want to listen to or watch them anymore.
Likewise with any artists from the more distant past.
Don't worry dude, I'll get a bunch of Stewart Lee on a stick for you asap
Googling "Stewart Lee allegations"
Do you like Picasso?
I'm sure we can find someone. What other musical acts do you enjoy?
Again, it's one thing if it's the here and now, as is the case with most of these allegations. But throwing out art from the past when misogyny was even more rampant strikes me as wildly naive.
Jerry Lee Lewis?
Bingo. The "Golden Age" of Hollywood was anything but.....even then it was a cesspool of greed, drugs, and sex.
And movie studios forcing actresses to have abortions.
Pffft. Don't project your awe of artists onto me. I'll throw everything out, I don't care. The less the better.